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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/18 16:11:51
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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I agree tetris. At what point did this stop being a game and turn into "I'm going to rules lawyer you until your convinced your ability does nothing"
I guess we only have GW and their piss poor wording to blame. If RAW always matched RAI we wouldn't have these issues.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/18 17:20:12
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I agree as well, I just wanted to point out that EL does nothing by their own argument.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 10:54:19
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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BarBoBot wrote:I agree tetris. At what point did this stop being a game and turn into "I'm going to rules lawyer you until your convinced your ability does nothing"
I guess we only have GW and their piss poor wording to blame. If RAW always matched RAI we wouldn't have these issues.
From what I have heard wording in European English and American English are different understandings, and when translated to a different language it gets even worse. Just a rumor I heard a while back.
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Chaos daemons 1850
Chaos Marines 1850
2250+
2500++ (Wraithwing)
I moved so starting from scratch. These were the armies I had, rebuilding my Chaos. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 11:56:49
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
All kinds of places at once
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Actually, EL does still do something in the non-intuitive interpretation. It allows lone characters to get back up. For example, independent characters who have recently disembarked from a CCB or a cryptek who was the only survivor of mass casualties previously in the game, and is no longer attached to a unit as it was destroyed. I will point out that if you are of the belief that an EL model gets to come back in the OP's situation, and if such a model was attached to a warrior squad from the beginning of the game, you also have to conclude that the Ghost Ark can revive said character, even if it happens to be Imotekh. Actually, you could conclude that in either case, but the particular line of reasoning I am referencing here necessitates that conclusion.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/30 11:57:12
Check out my project, 41.0, which aims to completely rewrite 40k!
Yngir theme song:
I get knocked down, but I get up again, you're never gonna keep me down; I get knocked down...
Lordhat wrote:Just because the codexes are the exactly the same, does not mean that that they're the same codex. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 18:05:10
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kommissar Kel wrote:Necron Codex page 29, Ever living; Second paragraph, first sentence: "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in reanimation protocols."
So we go to check what the Explanation for "In Coherency is in reanimation protocols(Second paragraph therein, second half of third sentence): "-return one of the slain models to play with a single wound, placed in coherency with a model from it's unit that has not itself returned through reanimation protocols this phase."
So you see the only coherency rules in reanimation protocols states that the model must be returned in coherency with a model that has not returned; when the EL character is the only survivor, and is returning, how could he possibly return in coherency t a model in the unit that has not returned this phase(since the only model in the unit is himself and he is returning)?
Further if you could return him in coherency with himself, he could be returned anywhere on the table(since he had been joined to a unit he only has to return in coherency with himself; therefore anywhere on the table more than 1" from a enemy model is a valid return point).
Now, if EL is a subset of the RP rules, and thus not RP; then Jetbikes are no longer bikes, Jetpacks are no longer jump infantry, and Ramming is no longer tank shocking.
EL is RP, but with a few specific differences in how the EL model returns under given circumstances; but it still uses the RP rules for whether or not it returns.
You do realize that what you're stating would make it impossible for any IC/ Ch in the necron codex to EVER come back with RP/ EL if they were off on their own. So lets say I take one standard lord as my royal court. If he dies, he'd "never" be able to get back up unless he was attached to a squad.
Also, you couldn't place him "anywhere on the table" because the rules states "within 3" of where he was killed". Or similar wording.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/11/30 18:08:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 19:51:45
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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EL has 2 occasions for return:
1) return to the unit they were attached to(using the RP placement rules)
2) Returning from a death occured while they were not attached to any unit.
Off on their own(when removed as a casualty) is handled in the EL rules, with very specific rules.
Returning to a unit is as I described in your quotation of me.
Returning to a wiped unit that they were attached to is simply not handled in the rules at all.
The 3" of where he was killed is for when he was killed without being attached to a unit
Necron codex, page 29, ever living, second paragraph, second sentence: wrote:If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, within 3"of the counter.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/11/30 21:04:28
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Kommissar Kel wrote:EL has 2 occasions for return:
1) return to the unit they were attached to(using the RP placement rules)
2) Returning from a death occured while they were not attached to any unit.
Off on their own(when removed as a casualty) is handled in the EL rules, with very specific rules.
Returning to a unit is as I described in your quotation of me.
Returning to a wiped unit that they were attached to is simply not handled in the rules at all.
The 3" of where he was killed is for when he was killed without being attached to a unit
Necron codex, page 29, ever living, second paragraph, second sentence: wrote:If the model had not joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, within 3"of the counter.
Theoretically, a Lord/Cryptek can never not be part of a group though as it is either part of the royal court or part of the unit it is attached to pre-game. So if it is part of the royal court and is the only member, it could never get back up?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 01:33:14
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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Sure it can. It can be the sole remaining survivor of a unit. If it is a single model it is not joined to a unit, and thus uses the EL rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/01 01:33:35
W/L/D: 9/4/8 Under Construction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 02:10:03
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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WanderingFox wrote:Sure it can. It can be the sole remaining survivor of a unit. If it is a single model it is not joined to a unit, and thus uses the EL rules.
That's just it though, the sole remaining survivor "of a unit". What unit? If he's the last one and he goes down, since he's not an IC he can never get back up because he was ALWAYS part of a unit and can NEVER utilize the EL rules for coming back.
Now keep in mind, this isn't how I believe it should be played, but this is how others are portraying it to be and it's incorrect. I'm on your side here. I'm playing devils advocate. The notion that a model with EL can't get back up if the unit they were in was wiped is just ridiculous. But it brings about a whole other slew of questions such as, if the lords/crypteks are part of the unit and they count as part of it, then do they meet the criteria for certain beneficial effects such as the ghost ark and the deathmarks abilities.
From what you said, if they are the sole remaining survivor of a unit then they are no longer part of the unit. But, that simply can't be because they either are part of the unit or part of the court. If they are the remaining survivor then the unit they were with still exists, meaning the would count for the ghost ark repair or could still benefit from the deathmarks abilities. But if it's the other way around where they are not part of the unit then they would have to be treated more like IC's and could never benefit from said abilities either.
Ugh...it's frustrating.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 02:12:36
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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I just covered this in another thread... It really depends on what version of EL you are using. According to RAW the situation can never occur. RAI (and the Matt Ward comments form the Necron WD issue) suggest that the lord would no longer be a part of the unit it was joined to, but is rather now a single model unit in its own right.
reasoning:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414159/3635810.page#3635810
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/01 02:14:46
W/L/D: 9/4/8 Under Construction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 02:43:43
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Man I totally lost my train of thought in that last post, got distracted and then derailed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 20:18:57
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Sneaky Lictor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and as i pointed out, he is a member of "that" unit when he joins it, so "that" unit still exists.
No he's not. The EL rule explicitly makes the distinction between the unit as a whole (model and the rest of the unit it joined) and the model and the unit it joined. The rules are clear: EL model is to rejoin THAT unit he previously joined. Two separate entities in the rules. If the EL model cannot rejoin THAT unit, the EL model is lost.
Them's the rules....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 20:28:37
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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TheGreatAvatar wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and as i pointed out, he is a member of "that" unit when he joins it, so "that" unit still exists.
No he's not. The EL rule explicitly makes the distinction between the unit as a whole (model and the rest of the unit it joined) and the model and the unit it joined. The rules are clear: EL model is to rejoin THAT unit he previously joined. Two separate entities in the rules. If the EL model cannot rejoin THAT unit, the EL model is lost.
Them's the rules....
Again though, the same would hold true for all non- IC EL models. Namely, lords and crypteks. They are "never" not part of a group so if you have 1 model in a court and he dies, he couldn't come back? This also negates the entire purpose of ever living (as it is on IC's anyway) because the purpose of it is so that the model can "always" make it's roll to come back.
So, I highly doubt "thems the rules" considering your interpretation of the rules makes EL pointless on these models.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/01 20:29:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 20:30:31
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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Well RAW he's entirely correct.
RAI you are certainly right, however YMDC deals with RAW and since there is no FAQ (outside of Matt Ward's play through in WD). Alas the WD issue is not legal ruling, though its a good indication of RAI.
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W/L/D: 9/4/8 Under Construction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 20:43:42
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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WanderingFox wrote:Well RAW he's entirely correct.
RAI you are certainly right, however YMDC deals with RAW and since there is no FAQ (outside of Matt Ward's play through in WD). Alas the WD issue is not legal ruling, though its a good indication of RAI.
He's entirely correct when it comes to IC's that use ever living and were attached to a squad. But these aren't IC's, they are just characters and characters are still part of the unit, more so than an IC will ever be because characters count, for all intents, as a model of the same type of unit it is in. A lord/cryp with ever living can not ever not be in that unit if they started in it.
I don't know of wards play through but I'm sure he knows his codex fairly well.
Back to my point though, ever living is supposed to allow those models with it the ability to "rise from their grave" no matter what, the restriction on the unit part doesn't matter for lords/cryps because they ARE the unit they were attached to and thus can never be out of it. Just because all the warriors were killed does not mean the lord is not part of a unit then. The EL restriction is for IC's joined to squads.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 21:01:47
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
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RAI you're correct.
However, that distinction is not made in the codex.
It is, however, how it is played in the WD play through.
Like I've said in at least a half-dozen posts by now, its vague to the point where no one has a 'right' solution. Better maybe, but correct? who knows XD
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W/L/D: 9/4/8 Under Construction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/01 21:51:59
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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WanderingFox wrote:RAI you're correct.
However, that distinction is not made in the codex.
It is, however, how it is played in the WD play through.
Like I've said in at least a half-dozen posts by now, its vague to the point where no one has a 'right' solution. Better maybe, but correct? who knows XD
Indeed, it's an infuriating situation to say the least. They really should have left RP and EL completely separate from one another and not reference one another at all. But, oh well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 00:20:16
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TGA - and, again, the instant he joins from that moment on he is a member of that unit he has joined, so he IS that unit - you have two uses of "that" encapsulated in one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 01:52:09
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Sneaky Lictor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and, again, the instant he joins from that moment on he is a member of that unit he has joined, so he IS that unit - you have two uses of "that" encapsulated in one.
Nos,
The rule reads there are two separate entities: the EL model and the unit the EL model joined. When the EL model is removed it is no longer part of any unit. The EL rule states when the EL model passes the RP roll, it must be placed in coherency with THAT unit the EL model previously joined. The rule is very specific making the distinction between the EL model an the unit the EL model previously joined. The EL rule doesn't reference the unit as a single entity.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 08:46:45
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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"When the EL model is removed it is no longer part of any unit"
Except that isnt how the rule reads - it doesnt lose its unit association that it gained the instant it joined the unit, and therefore it CAN join the unit it joined
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 13:57:46
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Sneaky Lictor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:"When the EL model is removed it is no longer part of any unit"
Except that isnt how the rule reads - it doesnt lose its unit association that it gained the instant it joined the unit, and therefore it CAN join the unit it joined
Yes, the model does lose it association! The. Model. Is. Removed. From. Play. It no longer is part of any unit. For purposes of the game, the model doesn't exist. Its weargear no longer works. The unit model count is reduced by one.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 16:31:24
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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No, the model does not lose its association - THE EL model, which is the subject of the EL rules, retains which unit it belongs to.
Same as an IC + unit in close combat - if the unit is destroyed, the IC is STILL assigned to that unit until the end of the next movement phase, and thus takes any morale check / fearless wounds as a result of losing combat, etc.
If it did not retain its ownership, it could never return to the unit it joined, which the rules say it does.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 16:32:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 18:09:01
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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TheGreatAvatar wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:"When the EL model is removed it is no longer part of any unit"
Except that isnt how the rule reads - it doesnt lose its unit association that it gained the instant it joined the unit, and therefore it CAN join the unit it joined
Yes, the model does lose it association! The. Model. Is. Removed. From. Play. It no longer is part of any unit. For purposes of the game, the model doesn't exist. Its weargear no longer works. The unit model count is reduced by one.
Can you show me where in the rulebook it states that a model can "lose its association with a group when it is not an IC"? I mean, would you say the same as a vet seargent upgrade (or whatever) being the last one in his unit? Would he "lose his association" because he's not a standard trooper?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 19:24:13
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Sneaky Lictor
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, the model does not lose its association - THE EL model, which is the subject of the EL rules, retains which unit it belongs to.
Same as an IC + unit in close combat - if the unit is destroyed, the IC is STILL assigned to that unit until the end of the next movement phase, and thus takes any morale check / fearless wounds as a result of losing combat, etc.
It's not the same thing. In your example, the IC is never removed from game play. This is radically different then an Overlord being removed from the unit then later being added back to the unit.
If it did not retain its ownership, it could never return to the unit it joined, which the rules say it does.
There is no "ownership" by the EL model. Sure the EL model can rejoined the unit since that's what the rule says happens. The EL rule specifically requires the reanimated EL model to rejoin the unit.
Kevin949 wrote:TheGreatAvatar wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:"When the EL model is removed it is no longer part of any unit"
Except that isnt how the rule reads - it doesnt lose its unit association that it gained the instant it joined the unit, and therefore it CAN join the unit it joined
Yes, the model does lose it association! The. Model. Is. Removed. From. Play. It no longer is part of any unit. For purposes of the game, the model doesn't exist. Its weargear no longer works. The unit model count is reduced by one.
Can you show me where in the rulebook it states that a model can "lose its association with a group when it is not an IC"? I mean, would you say the same as a vet seargent upgrade (or whatever) being the last one in his unit? Would he "lose his association" because he's not a standard trooper?
Sure. When the model is removed from play it no longer is associated with the unit. Your example (similar to nos example, above) has the vet sergeant remaining in play while the rest of the unit is removed. The EL rules deals with the model being removed from play than being reintroduced back into the game. Two radically different scenarios.
edit1:
I'd also like to point out the RP rule specifies the returning model returns to "its" unit while the EL rule states the EL model returns joining "that" unit previously joined to.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 19:44:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 19:52:42
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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The model isn't actually removed though, it is replaced by a token and that step takes place "when it would be removed as a casualty". While the physical model is removed, the tokens still represent the potential over-all size of the unit. Now while the non-character models would lose their RP rolls when everyone in the unit is downed, the EL unit would still have a marker on the board and it would still be part of that unit it was initially part of.
Again though, with the model coming back to "its unit", there is no way that a non-IC EL can ever not do this because it is ALWAYS PART OF A UNIT EVEN IF IT IS A ONE MODEL ROYAL COURT. By your example, EL on a non-IC is completely pointless and that is simply not the case.
The parts you are getting hung up on are more for IC's then they are for the standard characters. The characters do not "join" units, they are assigned to units at the beginning of the game and can never not be a part of the unit. IC's "join" units, lords/cryps ARE the unit.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 19:55:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 20:37:19
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Technically, an IC is always part of a unit. Otherwise, you couldn't shoot at a lone IC as you must target "units."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 22:04:29
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Sneaky Lictor
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Kevin949 wrote:The model isn't actually removed though, it is replaced by a token and that step takes place "when it would be removed as a casualty". While the physical model is removed, the tokens still represent the potential over-all size of the unit. Now while the non-character models would lose their RP rolls when everyone in the unit is downed, the EL unit would still have a marker on the board and it would still be part of that unit it was initially part of.
Actually, the model IS removed; it is NOT replaced with a token. Reread the RP rule. When the model is remove a counter/marker is placed next to the unit to keep track of the number of models removed in the phase. That's it. There is no relationship to a model and a counter/marker. I can use a die to keep track of the number of models lost in the phase, for instance. The counters have no bearing on normal game play (unit size for example) and represent nothing more than just the number of RP rolls to be made as the end of the phase. If all the RP models are removed then, per the RP rule, there is no need to for RP rolls since none of the self-repaired models can be placed in coherency of its unit, thus the unit no longer exists. If an EL counter is with the (no longer existing) unit and passes its RP roll, the EL model must be place in coherency with THAT unit it previously joined. THAT unit is previously joined no longer exists.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 22:11:32
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Unit1126PLL wrote:Technically, an IC is always part of a unit. Otherwise, you couldn't shoot at a lone IC as you must target "units."
That's correct, he is his own unit. Such is the not the case for "characters" though, they are either part of the royal court or part of the unit they are assigned to when the game starts. There is no in-between for them when they're the sole survivor of a unit. Automatically Appended Next Post: TheGreatAvatar wrote:Kevin949 wrote:The model isn't actually removed though, it is replaced by a token and that step takes place "when it would be removed as a casualty". While the physical model is removed, the tokens still represent the potential over-all size of the unit. Now while the non-character models would lose their RP rolls when everyone in the unit is downed, the EL unit would still have a marker on the board and it would still be part of that unit it was initially part of.
Actually, the model IS removed; it is NOT replaced with a token. Reread the RP rule. When the model is remove a counter/marker is placed next to the unit to keep track of the number of models removed in the phase. That's it. There is no relationship to a model and a counter/marker. I can use a die to keep track of the number of models lost in the phase, for instance. The counters have no bearing on normal game play (unit size for example) and represent nothing more than just the number of RP rolls to be made as the end of the phase. If all the RP models are removed then, per the RP rule, there is no need to for RP rolls since none of the self-repaired models can be placed in coherency of its unit, thus the unit no longer exists. If an EL counter is with the (no longer existing) unit and passes its RP roll, the EL model must be place in coherency with THAT unit it previously joined. THAT unit is previously joined no longer exists.
And again, your interpretation of the rule would never work for the royal court members in any form and makes it completely meaningless for them to have EL. So, why would they have it at all if your method is how it's supposed to be played?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/02 22:16:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 22:19:33
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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And Rez Orb for that matter (but that's a discussion for another topic).
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/12/02 23:06:17
Subject: Necron Royal Court squad detachement *2 questions
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I still have a lot to catching up to do but the way I read it. When the unit is destroyed and the EL non IC character makes its EL/RP role, it should be placed with in 3" of the EL counter. As for unit coherency, it should always be in unit coherency for a unit of one. This is my reading of it which makes logical since to me.
Along this same line of thought, Since it is technically the same character assigned to the same unit, and pending its a unit of warriors, should you be able to resupply that lone EL non-IC character with warrior models. Pending there is a ghost ark nearby? Not to get off topic.
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