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I think this needs to faqed at GW asap because this will cause some arguements in games. I overhead a 15 minute debate and was wanting everyones .02

1. After reading the rules, I am a bit confused. If you attach a royal court member with special rules: ever living to a squad, it can reanimate even if the squad is killed. My question is, since he is now attached to the squad, does it alow them a chance to reanimate if he repairs first, since he is now leading the squad?

2. If I take 2 overlords, there are now 2 royal courts. Can 1 member from each court join each unit if desired?

1. I would say only the lord/cryptek gets to try and come back because the squad was completely destroyed and all RP rolls happen at the same time.

2. So far the consensus is that if you have 2 royal courts you can have one from each join the same unit.

bagtagger wrote:1. I would say only the lord/cryptek gets to try and come back because the squad was completely destroyed and all RP rolls happen at the same time.

2. So far the consensus is that if you have 2 royal courts you can have one from each join the same unit.

#2 just made me EXTREMELY happy

1: RAW is that the cryptek can not get back up since everliving defers to reanimation protocols for conditions on returning, and RP states that if the unit it was attached to is gone it can't get back up.

That said, RAI is that it functions exactly as how bagtagger detailed. This is reinforced by its usage as such in the WD issue.

2: Yes, that is exactly how it's being played (at least thats how myself and everyone I know of is playing it). Only GW knows if that will get changed or not though.

As for question 1, the Reanimation Protocols rule tells us:

"if a character is the only survivor of a unit, his presence is not sufficient to allow a Reanimation Protocols roll, so remove any remaining counters." Codex: necrons p. 29

Crypteks are characters. So no, the rest of the unit would not get to test even if the cryptek gets back up thanks to Ever Living.

As for question 2, we have a somewhat long-winded explanation for your question here. Short version: yes.

Hope this helps!
-GiantKiller

No1 - Wandering fox is incorrect. RAW EL ONLY refers to RP for the rules on placing EL models and the rules for the dice roll required; that is it. It is a fallacy to assume that, because it references RP in specific places, that it references ALL of the RP rules.

So yes, if the EL model is downed, he can ALWAYS get up.

Yes however, an everling model must get up within coherency of the unit it joined. Crypteks are not ics and thus cannt exist by themselves, it must get up in a unit that no longer exists, and as per RP cannot be placed. QED it does not get up. ("And is placed as per the rules stated in reanimation protocols")

That said this is obviously wrong from a RAI point of view as I stated, but is perfectly within the rules from RAW.

Except, as I pointed out and people ignored: the Cyrptek / Lord IS a member of the unit. If they are a single member of the unit coherency is always satisfied because the actual rules for coherency only require you to be no more than 2" away from another member of the unit

Your QED is not actually QED, if you'd read the rules.

The fact that they are just characters (the same as space marine sergeants or tyranid broodlords) and not independent characters means that they are in all purposes considered a member of the unit, with a better/different statline and wargear. This further proves the point that if they do come back from everliving they are still a scoring unit, even though they're down to a single man.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as I pointed out and people ignored: the Cyrptek / Lord IS a member of the unit. If they are a single member of the unit coherency is always satisfied because the actual rules for coherency only require you to be no more than 2" away from another member of the unit

Your QED is not actually QED, if you'd read the rules.

If you followed the Reanimation protocols, you just wiped out the unit, ergo the unit is removed from the board. Thusly, the cryptec is NOT just a part of the unit (hence ever-living).

Do keep in mind from a RAI standpoint I agree with you 100%, its just that the RAW is vague enough to argue that the cryptec cannot join the unit it was a part of since that unit was removed when you swept the reanimation protocol counters off the table. Thus it is getting up by itself, and the unit it was a part of no longer exists. By definition of RP (as pointed to by the Cryptek's EL rule), this would mean that you cannot place the cryptek since it is impossible for it to join the unit it was originally a part of.

Allow me to demonstrate via an example.

Unit A: 10 warriors
Unit B: 10 warriors + 1 cyptek

Unit A and B are not equivalent. They are not the same unit. As stated above, Cryptek's are not independent, and thus cannot join an existing unit. They must be joined to the unit prior to deployment.

Unit B dies to the man. It is now a stack of 10 RP counters, and 1 EL counter.

The 10 RL counters are removed and thus do not get up (the squad was wiped out). Unit B no longer exists at this point.
The 1 EL counter is left on the board, however, if the roll is made the Cryptek cannot get back up into coherency with Unit B since Unit B was wiped out in the previous RP rolls. As per the RP rules (as referred to by EL) since you cannot join the Cryptek to its original unit, you may not place him on the board.


This is obviously not how it functions RAI (nor is it how anyone is playing it), but the ruling supports the above at at least a theoretical level.

Except, as the rules for royal court tell you, the court member is joined to, and IS PART OF, that unit.

They are a member of the unit. If you destroy the warriors then the unit is NOT wiped out - the cryptek (etc) is still alive.

Thats what you are getting wrong - the unit is NOT wiped out until the cryptek / lord fails their EL roll

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Thats what you are getting wrong - the unit is NOT wiped out until the cryptek / lord fails their EL roll

Is it your contention that the rest of the non-EL squad (who is all down) get to make RP rolls?

So every living lets the cryptek try to get back up.
If he gets up, then RP lets the rest of the unit try too, since the cryptek is part of the unit?

-Matt

No, because the unit cannot be placed in coherency with a model that hasnt made a RP roll...the El has made an RP roll

So every living lets the cryptek try to get back up. If he gets up, then RP lets the rest of the unit try too, since the cryptek is part of the unit?

I don't have my codex at hand but I believe the Reanimation Protocols rules specifically cover what happens if only the character in the unit is standing.

Ghaz wrote:

So every living lets the cryptek try to get back up. If he gets up, then RP lets the rest of the unit try too, since the cryptek is part of the unit?

I don't have my codex at hand but I believe the Reanimation Protocols rules specifically cover what happens if only the character in the unit is standing.

No, RP only states if the character is the only surviving model, the rest of the unit does not reanimate. Neither RP nor EL specifically deal with the situation of a unit being downed with a character.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as I pointed out and people ignored: the Cyrptek / Lord IS a member of the unit. If they are a single member of the unit coherency is always satisfied because the actual rules for coherency only require you to be no more than 2" away from another member of the unit.

As pointed out in the other thread, the EL rules the reanimated character must join "that" unit previously joined not "his" or "the" unit. "That" unit no longer exists thus can't be joined thus, by EL rules, is removed from the table.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as I pointed out and people ignored: the Cyrptek / Lord IS a member of the unit. If they are a single member of the unit coherency is always satisfied because the actual rules for coherency only require you to be no more than 2" away from another member of the unit.

As pointed out in the other thread, the EL rules the reanimated character must join "that" unit previously joined not "his" or "the" unit. "That" unit no longer exists thus can't be joined thus, by EL rules, is removed from the table.

I'm so confused.
If necron lords and crypteks can't ever used EL, why do they have it?

What happens if you have 2 Necron Lords, and both go down (along with their whole unit)? Do they get up together, as their own units, or not at all?
Contemplating necron lord spam, and just want to get a feel for how it all works.

-Matt

They can use it fine, so long as they are not killed along with the squad.

There is phrasing for EL on being attached to a squad wherein you must "revive" within coherency with the squad; there is no phrasing, nor capability for a EL model to revive when it was attached to a squad and the squad is dead.

Technically there is rules for what to do when the EL Character dies with a squad and is reanimated: you cannot place the model anywhere legally(as the squad is gone), so the model lost and cannot return; remove the counter from play.

In the case of a Cryptek/lord, he is part of the unit wholly, and a Character with EL; both rules state he is gone if the unit is entirely converted to RP/EL counters.

TGA - and as i pointed out, he is a member of "that" unit when he joins it, so "that" unit still exists.

Kel - coherency is always satisfied when you only have one model left, so you are always in coherency with that unit

at above: the codex specifically states that the character doesn't count as part of that unit for the RP roll

oh and i agree with nos on his 2nd bit

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - coherency is always satisfied when you only have one model left, so you are always in coherency with that unit

Not in this case.

While you are always in coherency with yourself; you cannot place any models through RP in coherency with a model that was returned through RP.

EL places the model in coherency using the RP rules; so you cannot legally place the model(you have no models in your unit eligible to be placed within coherency to), and therefore the model is lost and the EL counter is RFP.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kel - coherency is always satisfied when you only have one model left, so you are always in coherency with that unit

Not in this case.

While you are always in coherency with yourself; you cannot place any models through RP in coherency with a model that was returned through RP.

EL places the model in coherency using the RP rules; so you cannot legally place the model(you have no models in your unit eligible to be placed within coherency to), and therefore the model is lost and the EL counter is RFP.

Then no EL roll can be made - it's either an RP roll, or the character cannot be placed in coherency with the unit he was originally a part of.

EL roll can be made(that much is true in the EL rules); it is just that the model in this case has no legal place to be put and so remains destroyed(so why bother with the EL roll at all).

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and as i pointed out, he is a member of "that" unit when he joins it, so "that" unit still exists.

Kel - coherency is always satisfied when you only have one model left, so you are always in coherency with that unit

If this is all correct and true...
2 necro lords (from two different courts) join a unit of 8 warriors.
Warriors and lords are wiped out in combat.
Lords roll to get back up, say one of them makes it.
Then, two Ghost Barges target the lord, who is part of the necron warrior unit, and bring back 2D3 warriors.

The unit goes from completely off the table, with only to markers, to 2D3 warriors, all thanks to EL.

Correct?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and as i pointed out, he is a member of "that" unit when he joins it, so "that" unit still exists.

Kel - coherency is always satisfied when you only have one model left, so you are always in coherency with that unit

If this is all correct and true...
2 necro lords (from two different courts) join a unit of 8 warriors.
Warriors and lords are wiped out in combat.
Lords roll to get back up, say one of them makes it.
Then, two Ghost Barges target the lord, who is part of the necron warrior unit, and bring back 2D3 warriors.

The unit goes from completely off the table, with only to markers, to 2D3 warriors, all thanks to EL.

Correct?

-Matt

I would say no, because the unit doesn't contain warriors anymore and thus isn't a legal target for the Ghost Ark (as it must target a "warrior squad").

KK - except you return an EL model using the EL rules, which use a subset of the RP rules; at no point are you using the RP rules in toto, so you are never a "model that has returned using the RP rules" (not a quote, but trying to differentiate) - your only requirement is to return to play in coherency with a model from "that' unit, and as you ar e amember of "that" unit you ALWAYS satsify that requirement, no matter where you are placed.

Necron Codex page 29, Ever living; Second paragraph, first sentence: "If the model had joined a unit when it was removed as a casualty, and the roll was passed, it must be returned to play, with a single wound, in coherency with that unit as explained in reanimation protocols."

So we go to check what the Explanation for "In Coherency is in reanimation protocols(Second paragraph therein, second half of third sentence): "-return one of the slain models to play with a single wound, placed in coherency with a model from it's unit that has not itself returned through reanimation protocols this phase."

So you see the only coherency rules in reanimation protocols states that the model must be returned in coherency with a model that has not returned; when the EL character is the only survivor, and is returning, how could he possibly return in coherency t a model in the unit that has not returned this phase(since the only model in the unit is himself and he is returning)?

Further if you could return him in coherency with himself, he could be returned anywhere on the table(since he had been joined to a unit he only has to return in coherency with himself; therefore anywhere on the table more than 1" from a enemy model is a valid return point).

Now, if EL is a subset of the RP rules, and thus not RP; then Jetbikes are no longer bikes, Jetpacks are no longer jump infantry, and Ramming is no longer tank shocking.

EL is RP, but with a few specific differences in how the EL model returns under given circumstances; but it still uses the RP rules for whether or not it returns.

Ramming is a special form of tank shock belies that argument

So ... EL does nothing?

Some would argue that. This all too reminds me of the "Doom of malan'tai cannot use warp field because he is not a zoanthrope" argument that erupted when the tyranid book came out. Nobody actually played it that way (in my neck of the woods) but RAW that's what the book said.


I see ever-living as the same way right now - the intent of the rule (as I interpret it) is to allow a single model to come back, even after the rest of the squad is wiped out. The rule specifically prohibits the 'grunts' of the squad to return if they all die, even if the leader makes his EL roll. Now consider a moment, if the leader wasn't allowed to come back at all because he couldn't be placed in coherency with a model that came back via RP this turn, why would the stipulation for EL exist at all?

More to the point, i believe the inevitable FAQ will dispel the "EL does nothing" argument because the rule exists for a reason. If someone during a game doesn't allow you to bring back your lord, cryptek, overlord, etc because the entire squad was wiped, that's not right. A good consolidation roll will disallow that 3"+1" rule for replacement of ever-living characters, but you don't need to cheese the rules by screaming RAW pre-FAQ if you're playing vs Necrons...

/rant