Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

gorgon wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you run praetorians in tandem with wraiths. By themselves they're not going to win you any wars really, but if you have a minimum squad of praets that are backing up wraiths as you trounce around the battlefield, they are very devastating.

I agree with this approach. The point is not Praetorians OVER Wraiths. There's a ton of competition in FA, so after those slots fill with Scarabs and Wraiths, Praetorians give you the ability to put even more jump infantry on the table...jump infantry with S5, entropic strike and rending that will wreck vehicle face. Maybe not like Scarabs wreck vehicles, but they'll do the job. Entropic strike is a fairly amazing ability vs. vehicles IMO.

I like them less in an anti-infantry role, whether with rods or voidblades, although the casters can certainly be useful for thinning out a horde unit a little. Still, they can certainly win some CCs...you just haveta pick your spots or pair them with Wraiths etc as previously mentioned.

Praetorian vehicle-wrecking is very, very, very close to scarabs. But then they're way better in CC against non-vehicles, and don't get totally hosed by templates or suffer ID from S6 attacks.

Scarabs get more attacks...

Praetorians have +2S and Rending. Before ES a praetorian can glance a land raider if he's really lucky.

Before ES a scarab can't scratch the paint on a rhino's rear armor.

Wraiths are a bargain, I can't wait for the new kits to come out, I am buying 6 straight up, no question if they are Finecast or not. But it really sucks that all the truly 'elite' Necron units are in the Fast attack slot.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm more of a fan of the AP2 gun myself. I feel Necrons are definitely a shoot first and assault last army.

Assault with I2 and 1W models is a gamble, since Pretorians are no Termies that can survive hitting last to a certain extent. The OP speaks about 10 Pretorians which is a big point sink and very pt effective.

wuestenfux wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I'm more of a fan of the AP2 gun myself. I feel Necrons are definitely a shoot first and assault last army.

Assault with I2 and 1W models is a gamble, since Pretorians are no Termies that can survive hitting last to a certain extent. The OP speaks about 10 Pretorians which is a big point sink and very pt effective.

That's why you pair them with whipcord wraiths.

And then you could just pair whipcord wraiths with more whipcord wraiths, and you'd still be more point efficient than triarchs.

Irdiumstern wrote:And then you could just pair whipcord wraiths with more whipcord wraiths, and you'd still be more point efficient than triarchs.

I have to lean this way. Wraiths tend to outfight Rod Triarchs, and Scarabs kill vehicles faster and more points efficiently than Blade Triarchs. Unless you just can't cram anything more into FA, or desperately need a unit that can sub for Wraiths and Scarabs at the same time, buy more FA. As for Blade Triarchs vs. infantry, remember. The armor canceling effect of the Voidblades doesn't help you until NEXT round. Unlike vs. vehicles, it's pretty clear that entropic strike nullifies armors saves after the target saves against all of the wounding hits at that initiative step. Anything dangerous is going to have two full rounds of assbeating in on your Triarchs before you get that sweet round of attacks vs. Armor -. If you go up against a Tyrant, for example, you may not have any Triarchs left by that point. And it's not like you can play base contact games since you need a lot of attacks to get that first unsaved wound.

The problem is the 3 FA slots. Scarabs are extremely desirable, and Wraiths are a no brainer. But the Destroyer/Heavy Destroyer squad is also very useful now that you can back up your Heavies with reg Destroyers and attach a D. Lord for support. Even if you don't run Destroyers having 2 or even 3 squads of Wraiths is awesome but in higher points value games, I am still going to want an Elite Fearless unit, IMO the Praetorians are the best elite slot available. They are fearless, fast and have the choice between Entropic strike or Power Weapons.

I don't think fearless actually makes a difference on Triarchs. Any combat they lost will have already wiped most of the squad, so getting swept will only allow you to shoot the enemy again quicker. Triarchs aren't going to tie up a serious threat anyway, and they're not survivable enough to stand against hordes.

I guess it depends on playstyle. For me, wraiths provide a fast threat to just about anything my opponent can field. Destroyers don't provide enough firepower for the points, imo, Tomb Blades might be interesting as small blast fire support but not much else, and scarabs can only really hurt vehicles.
So my fast attack choices are going to be wraiths. And wraiths can do the same things Triarchs do, but are better at them (Yes, triarchs are marginally better at taking out standard marines with their Power Weapons. But then they can't hurt vehicles at all. Conversely, if equipped to deal with vehicles, triarchs can't engage infantry in any useful fashion. Wraiths can do both with a standard whipcoil loadout).

So what other worthwhile elite choices do necrons have to fit in with wraiths?
Flayed ones will give you an anti-horde punch that only gets better with wraith whip coils. They're cheap, damaging, and can either be brought in by deep strike, infiltrate, or outflank.
Another idea is Deathmarks with an attached Cryptek of Ap1 Flame Template. That should seriously reduce the ability of an enemy unit to strike back.

listening to all this tells me ill be getting out the magnets for the praetorians.

Irdiumstern wrote:I don't think fearless actually makes a difference on Triarchs. Any combat they lost will have already wiped most of the squad, so getting swept will only allow you to shoot the enemy again quicker. Triarchs aren't going to tie up a serious threat anyway, and they're not survivable enough to stand against hordes.

I guess it depends on playstyle. For me, wraiths provide a fast threat to just about anything my opponent can field. Destroyers don't provide enough firepower for the points, imo, Tomb Blades might be interesting as small blast fire support but not much else, and scarabs can only really hurt vehicles.
So my fast attack choices are going to be wraiths. And wraiths can do the same things Triarchs do, but are better at them (Yes, triarchs are marginally better at taking out standard marines with their Power Weapons. But then they can't hurt vehicles at all. Conversely, if equipped to deal with vehicles, triarchs can't engage infantry in any useful fashion. Wraiths can do both with a standard whipcoil loadout).

So what other worthwhile elite choices do necrons have to fit in with wraiths?
Flayed ones will give you an anti-horde punch that only gets better with wraith whip coils. They're cheap, damaging, and can either be brought in by deep strike, infiltrate, or outflank.
Another idea is Deathmarks with an attached Cryptek of Ap1 Flame Template. That should seriously reduce the ability of an enemy unit to strike back.

Actually fearless is very useful if you factor in an attached Destroyer Lord equipped with a Res Orb. How do Destroyers not provide enough fire power? You can get 10 Strength 5 AP3 shots from them or add in the Heavy Gauss attacks for popping tanks at Strength 9 and AP2. For an army with little range over 24" Destroyers are now a power house ranged combat unit with actual protection for the Heavy Destroyers.

Flayed ones are nice but any decent unit is going to be 20 strong and it won't take much to wipe them out with sweeping advance. It really is a shame that there is no decent character to attach to the Flayed ones, you can't even attach a Cryptek and there is not infiltrating or Deep Striking character. The best option is to attach Trayzn so the squad can be scoring.

Attaching a Cryptek to Deathmarks is also hampered because it takes away their deepstrike ability.

I actual do a tandem thing as well, but I also don't field the traditional loadout. I go with...

1 unit of 5 Praes with voidblades and particle casters 200 (Anti-Big Vehicle/Counter Assault)
2 Triarch Stalkers 300 (Anti-Vehicle/Targeting Array)
2 units of 4 Wraiths with 1 of each upgrade 370 (wound allocation)
1 unit of 3 Destroyers 120 (MEQ)
2 Doomsday Arks 350 (Anti-Everything/More BOOMPLATES)
1 Tomb Stalker 195 (One HUGE distraction with T7, W5, and A7)

My troops and HQs are...
10 Warriors and Ghost Ark 225 (need troops and fast moving fire support)
10 Warriors and Ghost Ark 225 (" ")
Nemesor with Barge 265 (I really like the Barge model, and yes I want to make my HQ immune to small arms fire/He can give counter attack to the Praes or Wraiths)

total 2250

NecronLord3 wrote:
Actually fearless is very useful if you factor in an attached Destroyer Lord equipped with a Res Orb. How do Destroyers not provide enough fire power? You can get 10 Strength 5 AP3 shots from them or add in the Heavy Gauss attacks for popping tanks at Strength 9 and AP2. For an army with little range over 24" Destroyers are now a power house ranged combat unit with actual protection for the Heavy Destroyers.

Flayed ones are nice but any decent unit is going to be 20 strong and it won't take much to wipe them out with sweeping advance. It really is a shame that there is no decent character to attach to the Flayed ones, you can't even attach a Cryptek and there is not infiltrating or Deep Striking character. The best option is to attach Trayzn so the squad can be scoring.

Attaching a Cryptek to Deathmarks is also hampered because it takes away their deepstrike ability.

Destroyer Lord with Rez Orb . . . I think the triarch squad is too fragile to survive any kind of enemy PW armed assault squad that strikes at initiative. Once they're all down, that rez orb isn't going to help anyway.

Str 5 Ap 3 2 shots is nice, but it won't kill termies, won't kill vehicles, and I'd rather use wraiths than try for lascannon hits. They're also quite expensive for what they do. True, they get great mobility, but for a fire support squad, that isn't strictly necessary, and the short range makes up for any gain in mobility anyway.
Frankly, 60 points for a single lascannon shot is not what I consider a good deal, and neither is a really powered down plasma gun for 40.

Flayed ones are going to be causing a ton of casulties against almost any enemy, other than assault termies. They're quite likely to win combat and thus don't have to worry about sweeping.
Trazyn, I want to like him, but I just don't see any use for him, other than as an anti-horde measure in a tarpit lychguard squad.

Crypteks joining squads is worded identical to the Wolfguard joining squads. In both cases, the model is counted as a member of the unit in all respects. The Wolfguard FAQ entry specificially states this, going so far as to say that a Wolfguard joined to Wolf Scouts can infiltrate and use their special outflank ability. Crypteks gain deepstrike when attached to deathmarks, and also gain the +2 to wound against marked targets, since they are part of the unit.

I'm glad you pointed out the Cryptek rule. I was just assuming they run like IC but since they are just characters those rules don't apply, now I find them much more desirable. Thank you!

Irdiumstern wrote:And then you could just pair whipcord wraiths with more whipcord wraiths, and you'd still be more point efficient than triarchs.

Yeah no. That's not even remotely true unless you're fighting a SV4+ or worse enemy.

Vs marines 7 triarch praetorians + 3 whipcord wraiths will score 11.2 kills on the assault.
By comparison, 10 whipcord wraiths will score 8.89 kills on the assault.

Neither squad will take casualties.

Vs termies it's no contest. The power weapons win.

Also...praetorians cost less than anything but unupgraded wraiths, and if you want to match numbers with just wraiths you have to savage your FA comp to do it. Destroyers or Scarabs...one of them will have to stay in your army case if you want that second wraith squad.

Arandmoor wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:And then you could just pair whipcord wraiths with more whipcord wraiths, and you'd still be more point efficient than triarchs.

Yeah no. That's not even remotely true unless you're fighting a SV4+ or worse enemy.

Vs marines 7 triarch praetorians + 3 whipcord wraiths will score 11.2 kills on the assault.
By comparison, 10 whipcord wraiths will score 8.89 kills on the assault.

Neither squad will take casualties.

Vs termies it's no contest. The power weapons win.

Also...praetorians cost less than anything but unupgraded wraiths, and if you want to match numbers with just wraiths you have to savage your FA comp to do it. Destroyers or Scarabs...one of them will have to stay in your army case if you want that second wraith squad.

Well let's start off with defining Point Efficient as something other than pure 1 turn alpha potential. Personally, survivability plays a rather large part in that, as does being able to continue doing damage after the first round of an assault. Neither are things that Triarchs excel at.

For the record:
5 Wraiths with charge vs Meq: 3.89 wnds, vs Teq(5++): 2.22 wnds, vs Teq(4++): 1.94 wnds, vs Teq(3++): 1.67 wnds
5 Triarchs with charge vs Meq: 5 wnds, vs Teq(5++): 3.33 wnds, vs Teq(4++): 2.5 wnds, vs Teq(3++): 1.67 wnds
Without Charge
5 Wraiths vs Meq: 2.92 wnds, vs Teq(5++): 1.67 wnds, vs Teq(4++): 1.46 wnds, vs Teq(3++): 1.25 wnds
5 Triarchs vs Meq: 1.67 wnds, vs Teq(5++): 1.11 wnds, vs Teq(4++): .83 wnds, vs Teq(3++): .56 wnds

So yes, if you need to wipe out bog standard marines, or tactical termies, jumping them with Triarchs will probably net results. Then again, if any enemy models survive, your triarchs are not going to be doing much. Should your triarchs get charged, they're pretty much dead.

Notice, also, how against Termies, the numbers continue to even out as Invul saves increase. 3++ on THSS, and the Triarchs are suddenly on the same footing as wraiths. Assuming of course, you get off the charge.

So, we have a unit that's somewhat better at dealing damage when charging, and significantly worse at any other time. In addition, their survivability is also much much lower. I'd say that suggests Wraiths are more efficient.

Also, I don't see everyone's infatuation with scarabs. Sure, you can reduce some vehicle armor if your opponent does not bubblewrap at all, and their S6 weapons are all busy shooting at other fast threats. To me, wraiths represent a much surer bet. Oh and lol for suggesting 2 shot destroyers being useful for anything other than trimming tac squads.

Preatorians don't have survivability? Are you kidding me?

T5, SV3+, And RP isn't survivable?

The only way that's not survivable compared to 2W, T4, VS3++ is if you're talking a CC deathstar. An enemy unit with wall-to-wall power weapons, that you should be shooting to death anyway.

T5 vs. T4 is huge. You're trying to say it's not, but that's just not true.

Their 3+ save is huge, especially when combined with T5. T5 + 3+ save is what makes and icon of Nurgle the most expensive mark in the chaos codex. Then, they get RP on TOP of that!

Finally, TH/SS termies are an absolute worst case scenario for pretty much anything in the CC department. If you're thinking about assaulting them with anything in the necron codex, you're just doing it wrong.

If you run numbers for something you would actually assault, the triarchs/wc-wraith combo wins.

Besides which, you forgot to have the triarchs shoot on the charge. It's what pushes them ahead. They are an alpha assault unit. If you're not wiping your target out on the assault, or dealing enough damage to them that they die in their turn you've got them in over their heads and you're using them wrong.

If you want to tarpit, look towards sword&board lychguard or scarabs.

If you want to nail an enemy unit with a strong assault, and then smash them over a few rounds of CC, you don't want praetorians. I agree.

However, if you're looking for a squad that can do that...why are you playing necrons in the first place?

Actually, the Triarchs shooting was included in the numbers I ran. Not sure what you were doing. Lychguard make a great tarpit, I agree. Scarabs can only tarpit things not able to either deal many wounds or with a strength less than 6, which counts out most good assault units.

And people have run the math. 5 Wraiths vs 5 THSS termies with wraiths charging leaves 3 wraiths alive at end of combat. I'd say that's successfully engaging THSS termies, not just tarpitting them.

T5 over T4 gives you exactly 1/6th better chances of survival. Against Power Weapons, Wraiths have a 3++ save, while Triarchs have no save. That's a difference of 2/3 in potential to survive, or 1/3 if you count RP as a real save. In that case, wraiths still come out 1/6th more survivable than triarchs against power weapons.
And you know what also aids survival? 2 wounds. Against attacks less than S8, Wraiths are significantly more survivable for that reason alone. In fact, the only place triarchs come out ahead is against S8+ weapons that do not ignore a +3 save, and then only with RP, which is ignored if the whole unit was destroyed. That's what, Manticores? Psyrifleman Autocannons? Congrats, here's 2 cases where triarchs are actually tougher than wraiths.

So far, all you've suggested is that the alpha potential of triarchs somehow makes up for their abysmal performance after the charge. Please, I'm curious. What would you assault with your Triarch Wraith combo? Longfangs hiding in the back? Tac squads? What are you going to use to engage enemy assault units coming towards your lines? Wraiths provide a mobile beatstick. Triarchs provide one turn of decent damage, followed by bitter defeat.

Irdiumstern wrote:Actually, the Triarchs shooting was included in the numbers I ran. Not sure what you were doing

No they weren't. I get the exact same 3.33 you do on the assault, but only for the melee of 5 praetorians. The shooting will net you another 2.22 marines.

Praetorians: 5 shots -> 3.33 hits -> 2.22 wounds = 2.22 dead (ap2)
10 attacks -> 5 hits -> 3.33 wounds = 3.33 dead (power weapons)

2.22 + 3.33 = 5.55 marines dead on the assault. Add in 5 wraiths and you get another 3.89 dead marines. With good positioning all marine kills will occur before the marines get to attack back.

Irdiumstern wrote:
T5 over T4 gives you exactly 1/6th better chances of survival. Against Power Weapons, Wraiths have a 3++ save, while Triarchs have no save. That's a difference of 2/3 in potential to survive, or 1/3 if you count RP as a real save. In that case, wraiths still come out 1/6th more survivable than triarchs against power weapons.

Which is like I said. If you're assaulting a pristine assault squad with wall-to-wall power weapons with your praetorians, you're doing it wrong. OTOH, if you've properly set up the praetorian/wraith unit so that they can wipe the target squad out before they get to go, or have at least hurt them so that they will not survive they will out-perform the wraiths by virtue of being more reliable vs. armor.

The only times wraiths are more efficient at killing than praetorians with RoCs, is when
a) you're assaulting 5+ save models with T4, 5, or 6
b) you're assaulting TH/SS assault termies or other wall-to-wall high-end invuln save squads.

If you're not assaulting a squad with wall-to-wall power weapons, well the math isn't in their favor to survive long enough to actually use that power weapon more than once. Most math hammer scenarios I've ran I gave the sergeant with a power sword the benefit of the doubt and let him go on initiative. The praetorian/wraith squad still handedly wiped the floor with them. Even leveling the power weapon attacks against the praetorians. If a wraith gets in b2b with the sergeant, there's a good chance he doesn't get to attack before you wipe the squad.

Irdiumstern wrote:
And you know what also aids survival? 2 wounds. Against attacks less than S8, Wraiths are significantly more survivable for that reason alone. In fact, the only place triarchs come out ahead is against S8+ weapons that do not ignore a +3 save, and then only with RP, which is ignored if the whole unit was destroyed. That's what, Manticores? Psyrifleman Autocannons? Congrats, here's 2 cases where triarchs are actually tougher than wraiths.

S8 attacks that ignore armor...hidden powerfists and AT weapons. Yes. I realize that praetorians are vulnerable to hidden power fists and AT weapons. Everything is vulnerable to hidden power fists and AT weapons. This is not news. Nor is it a really valid point for or against.

Wraiths will suffer from ID if they fail their 3+ invulns. Vs. S8 no armor weapons, neither unit really comes out on top. Both are wounded on two. One loses it's armor save, but the other loses it's second wound to a single failed save. All in all, the wraith's second wound is worth more points than the praetorian's armor save. Especially considering he can still take his Ressurection Protocol save. Goes double (well...half-again if you want to get technical) if you're packing a D-Lord with a rez orb as backup with the praetorians (assuming they're a tactical-centerpiece rather than an add-on unit). On top of which, most opponents will try to use the power fist to go after your D-Lord anyway (which you can avoid some of the time with mindshackle scarabs to your gross advantage).

Oh, ok, I see where the .55 extra wounds come from.

So your suggestion for using your elite cc unit is to disrupt the enemy backfield? What are you using when your opponent throws THSS or another heavy target at your lines? Triarchs can't deal with that. What else in the Necron army can you use to take out a heavy assault unit that's coming for your lines?

My point was that Wraiths are more survivable against things that ignore armor, even at S8+. Wraiths are significantly tougher against S7+ armor ignoring weapons than Triarchs, due to getting a 3++ save instead of a 5+ RP save.

Sure, Triarchs will kill basic Meq's better. But I doubt that necrons have a problem with +3 saves. There's plenty of AP3 shooting in the list. There's also a bit of AP1. But there isn't enough weight of fire to deal with 3++ Termies heading for your lines. Triarchs will tie them up for equal points, for a bit, but Wraiths will be able to engage and actually win combat.

In answer to the OPs question, Covenant rods are better, because void blades just look plain goofy.

In other, less important news, the covenant rods combo better with wraiths, in which people are right, is a pretty good combo.

But the important thing is......void blades look goofy.

I will also agree that spamming wraiths might just be better in the end. I'm generally in favor of using different units wherever possible, both for tactics and for aesthetics, but we have a situation here where triarchs are only good against some things, and 40 pts and kind vulnerable, whereas wraiths are just pretty good against almost everything, and have the sweet 3+ invo.

Irdiumstern wrote:Oh, ok, I see where the .55 extra wounds come from.

So your suggestion for using your elite cc unit is to disrupt the enemy backfield? What are you using when your opponent throws THSS or another heavy target at your lines? Triarchs can't deal with that. What else in the Necron army can you use to take out a heavy assault unit that's coming for your lines?

My point was that Wraiths are more survivable against things that ignore armor, even at S8+. Wraiths are significantly tougher against S7+ armor ignoring weapons than Triarchs, due to getting a 3++ save instead of a 5+ RP save.

Sure, Triarchs will kill basic Meq's better. But I doubt that necrons have a problem with +3 saves. There's plenty of AP3 shooting in the list. There's also a bit of AP1. But there isn't enough weight of fire to deal with 3++ Termies heading for your lines. Triarchs will tie them up for equal points, for a bit, but Wraiths will be able to engage and actually win combat.

To be blunt, necrons don't have anything that can handle TH/SS termies in CC. Wraiths might be able to fight them off, but it's not how I would handle them.

Priority of fire and saturation is what I would use. Tremorstaff them to buy yourself more time. TH/SS termies should get bogged down and shot off the board. If they make it into melee you deserve what you get. So yes, what I mean to say is I would counter TH/SS termies with my Troops. Warriors, and immortals. Guns, guns, and more guns. Enough guns to make an ork envious. Of course, I also consider stalkers to be almost mandatory, but I'm a little strange like that.

If I absolutely had to hit TH/SS termies with a counter-assault unit I'd use sword&board lychguard accompanied by a rez-lord w/ mindshackle scarabs and my phaeron with more mindshackle scarabs and a tesserack labyrinth (if I had the points). Or maybe a c'tan shard packing time's arrow supported with more whipcord wraiths to tank their Initiative for the c'tan. In either case I'm shooting them first...lots. Preferably with support from a triarch stalker.

My primary problem with using wraiths to counter marine TH/SS BS is that they will use their 2+ armor saves vs. the majority of your attakcs, AND they negate the wraith's second wound.

It's just a loss/loss for the wraiths, even if they do win.

And yes I would absolutely have my jump infantry run rampant through my opponent's backfield. That's what they're there for. If you're using your JI to pick a fair fight with something, you've completely missed the point of their 12" movement. It's not like necrons have anything that can match range with a ML or a LC (okay...doomsday cannons...and death rays...).

To be blunt, necrons don't have anything that can handle TH/SS termies in CC. Wraiths might be able to fight them off, but it's not how I would handle them.

Not to argue with your stragerery , because I tend to agree, but just for sheets and giggles:

17 FOs (221 pts) vs 5 TH/SS Termies (225 points)

Termies get charge (because as it has been pointed out to me, FOs will never ever get the charge against anything ever):

17×3×(1÷2)×(1÷2)×(1÷6) = 2.125 Dead Termies

2.875

2.875×3×(1÷2)×(5÷6)×(2÷3) = 2.396 Dead FOs

So at the end of one round of combat it should be 3ish TH/SS Termies versus 14 to 15ish FOs. I battle of attrition the FOs win easily.

I just want to point something out that I saw...

Wraiths are cheaper, stronger, and tougher. Praetorians marginalized by a unit within their own codex, which is the only time unit to unit comparisons are actually valid. There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

Wraiths are 5 points cheaper, so not a huge number. They do have 1 point more strength. They however do have 1 less point of toughness.

When hunting vehicles, as many have mentioned the void blades are much superior to wraiths. So right there wraiths are not stronger versus vehicles than praetorians.

When hunting monstrous creatures, the entropic strike quickly becomes very useful. Now, there are not a huge number of MC's in the game currently, so its hard to say when entropic strike will come into its own.

So we are left with comparing infantry, which vary greatly. Against units without power weapons, the 3++ invuln of the wraith is wasted, and against s3 enemies t5 is superior to t4 2wounds. Wraiths obviously have 1 more attack and 1 more strength, BUT wraiths dont hit that hard to be perfectly honest to begin with. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 2 rends 8 wounds, is the limit of what wraiths can do to most units.

Here we see Praetorians larger unit size come in handy. At 400 points, double the wraiths pretty much, you get 30 attacks, 15 hits, and versus t4 2.5 rends and 7.5 wounds. You also get 10 s6 pistol shots.

Now, is it fair to compare 10 Praets to 6 wraiths? Yes and no. Depending on your necron build, you will either have lots of points for praetorians, or no points for anything. If you run scarab farm, with min warrior objective units, then at 2k points 400 on 10 Praets is easy to come by, AS WELL AS max fast attack slots including wraiths. In this situation, if you could take a 4th fast attack, or Praetorians in the elite, you would rather take Praetorians, as a single unit of Praetorians would be stronger than a single unit of wraiths.

Meanwhile, if you are taking actual necron units, like blocks of warriors backed by ghost arks, and lots of royal court special gear, then 400 points on praetorians would perhaps undermine too much of your list, while 210 for 6 wraiths squeezes in with no modifications necessary. On the other hand, if your necron list uses NO scarabs at all, then the Praetorians with their entropic strike ability will be very welcome to your list, more so than wraiths.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To be blunt, necrons don't have anything that can handle TH/SS termies in CC. Wraiths might be able to fight them off, but it's not how I would handle them.

So at the end of one round of combat it should be 3ish TH/SS Termies versus 14 to 15ish FOs. I battle of attrition the FOs win easily.

Oh I totally agree. However...

The new FO models are so...fugly.

No. Just...no.

Arandmoor wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

To be blunt, necrons don't have anything that can handle TH/SS termies in CC. Wraiths might be able to fight them off, but it's not how I would handle them.

So at the end of one round of combat it should be 3ish TH/SS Termies versus 14 to 15ish FOs. I battle of attrition the FOs win easily.

Oh I totally agree. However...

The new FO models are so...fugly.

No. Just...no.

Hehe Ebay the metals ). I've got 20 though I <3 them and probably won't be selling any .

While i like the ap 2 attack the the rods of the covenant.

The particle caster is range 12 AND you get a hyperphase sword! So since you have a pistol and a sword, you now get two attacks, and so having them assault someone will turn out much, MUCH better!.

@above: you get a void blade, not a hyper phase sword

Ya, if it was a hyperphase sword I'd use that loadout ALWAYS.

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, if it was a hyperphase sword I'd use that loadout ALWAYS.

Interestingly GW "prices" the VB over the HPS, probably because of it's additional anti-tank capabilities.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Ya, if it was a hyperphase sword I'd use that loadout ALWAYS.

Interestingly GW "prices" the VB over the HPS, probably because of it's additional anti-tank capabilities.

Ya, the voidblade has more functionality but the hyperphase sword has more focus.