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I'm debating on the pros and cons of equiping a 10 man Triarch Pretorian squad with either rods of convenant or Hyperphase blades and particle casters. Rods of Convenant are power weapons and 6" range ap 2 assault guns. The Voidblades have rending and entropic strike, when combined with the particle caster they provide an additional +1 attack in CC. So the choice is really 1 ap2 assault attack before the charge, and 2 power weapon cc attacks(+1 on the charge) or 1 pistol shot low AP with 3 cc attacks(4 on the charge).

What would you take?

Edit: Changed to Voidblades for correction.

I'm more of a fan of the AP2 gun myself. I feel Necrons are definitely a shoot first and assault last army.

As an assault unit, point for point, wraiths are better. If you want to spend 400 points on a top notch assault squad, 6 wraiths with whipcoils and a destroyer lord is still going to be better than 10 triarchs. Mind you, the void blades might be good against vehicles, but str 6 + rending + 4 attacks on each wraith means that they're also fine for taking out tanks.

Also, Triarchs do not get hyperphase + casters, they get voidblades and casters, which means entropic strike and rending, not power weapons.

Irdiumstern wrote:As an assault unit, point for point, wraiths are better. If you want to spend 400 points on a top notch assault squad, 6 wraiths with whipcoils and a destroyer lord is still going to be better than 10 triarchs. Mind you, the void blades might be good against vehicles, but str 6 + rending + 4 attacks on each wraith means that they're also fine for taking out tanks.

Also, Triarchs do not get hyperphase + casters, they get voidblades and casters, which means entropic strike and rending, not power weapons.

You are right about the blades, don't have the book with me at the moment. However, Pretorians are also an Elite choice which is beneficial due to the high demand fast attack choices. A destroyer squad is very useful, Scarab swarms are a no brainer(I need an excuse to not run 2 full squads) and the Wraiths are amazing but without RP. I am planning to run my D. Lord attached to the Pretorians and taking 2 D. Lords would probably not be bad either. One attached to Wraiths, the other to the Pretorians.

NecronLord3 wrote:So the choice is really 1 ap2 assault attack before the charge, and 2 power weapon cc attacks(+1 on the charge) or 1 pistol shot low AP with 3 cc attacks(4 on the charge).

Check the codex again - praetorians have 1A base. You may be confusing them with Lychguard, who have 2A base.

So, the choice is 1 S6 AP2 shot plus 2 PW attacks on the charge, or 1 S6 AP5 shot plus 3 rending entropic attacks on the charge. Targets:
GEQ - blade
MEQ - rod
TEQ - rod
MC - depends on #W and invuls
AV - blade

No clear winner. So, it depends on the rest of the army composition. With scarabs around, AV is covered, so rod is likely better, to counter TEQ and MEQ CC specialists by countercharge.

I don't quite see why I'd take scarabs over wraiths, personally, unless I was running spiders. Sure they'll mess with vehicles, but so do the wraiths. Jump Infantry is, I'd say at least, somewhat better than beast (Jumpers loose out on fleet, but wraiths ignore terrain). Wraiths can take out termies and other assault troops, which scarabs really can't. Either way, there's no real reason to take Triarchs unless you really like the models or feel 3 squads of scarabs/wraiths are not enough.

This is why you run praetorians in tandem with wraiths. By themselves they're not going to win you any wars really, but if you have a minimum squad of praets that are backing up wraiths as you trounce around the battlefield, they are very devastating. I did this in my last game, though it was lychguard with the wraiths (same principle however) and the power weapon attacks from one squad and rending attacks from the other squad meant I was out-close combating Black Templars (yes, like the codex).

*edit*
I only mention wraiths at the moment because it's the kick everyone is on (myself included).

Necrontyr40k wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So the choice is really 1 ap2 assault attack before the charge, and 2 power weapon cc attacks(+1 on the charge) or 1 pistol shot low AP with 3 cc attacks(4 on the charge).

Check the codex again - praetorians have 1A base. You may be confusing them with Lychguard, who have 2A base.

So, the choice is 1 S6 AP2 shot plus 2 PW attacks on the charge, or 1 S6 AP5 shot plus 3 rending entropic attacks on the charge. Targets:
GEQ - blade
MEQ - rod
TEQ - rod
MC - depends on #W and invuls
AV - blade

No clear winner. So, it depends on the rest of the army composition. With scarabs around, AV is covered, so rod is likely better, to counter TEQ and MEQ CC specialists by countercharge.

Good analysis and you are probably right with the Lychgurad confusion. Those are models I never plan to take as they cost the same as Praetorians but are not fearless., I just don't want to put in a ton of effort of painting 10 Praetorieans with one set of equipment and then finding out later it was a waste and the other option was far superior. It would also have been nice if the squad could be mixed, I would gladly run 5 and 5.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/11/video-battle-report-new-necrons-vs-blood-angels/

That's a battle report with some Triarchs in them, if you guys are curious to see some in action.

The void blade was pretty dang good.

Reecius wrote:http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2011/11/11/video-battle-report-new-necrons-vs-blood-angels/

That's a battle report with some Triarchs in them, if you guys are curious to see some in action.

The void blade was pretty dang good.

I have to say as intrigued I was originally about the Rod, the Blade+Pistol has been winning me over. I see TPs as the ideal compliment for a Dlord with a Scythe and Res Orb, with their primary focus being running around and shredding vehicles. Sure the Wraiths have rending to but with the blades your trading 1 attack for entropic, and that way a big meaty 11 man unit can multi assault about 3 tanks and have a pretty good shot taking out all three (2 TPs pair up with the DLord on one, 4 TPs per tanks on the other two). 5T and RP4+ means that the unit will take a licken and keep on ticken.

I still think you can go either way with them, so it really comes down to what you need more, anti elite infantry that are still serviceable against grunts or anti tank that crush grunts as well?

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you run praetorians in tandem with wraiths. By themselves they're not going to win you any wars really,.

Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you run praetorians in tandem with wraiths. By themselves they're not going to win you any wars really,.

Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

What does the bold even mean? Are you saying this from experience? Their a 5S 5T model with RP, rending and entropic that can potentially kill any unit, vehicle, elite, hq or otherwise ever made? And reliably so for many? SRSLY, what is it with the Praetorians that people hate so much?

You obviously have no actual game experience with them or you used them tragically wrong.

@Shadarlogoth
Yeah, plus, they have RP, which Wraiths don't. I honestly think in an efficiency race, Wraiths come out on top, but Triarchs are a lot better than people give them credit for, and they look cool!

With a destroyer lord with res orb, they are fairly resilient and they shred vehicles, like you said.

@DarknessEternal

I think it really comes down to whether you are building a balls out efficiency oriented list, I would agree Wraiths are the business.

But, Triachs can have a place in a list built for fun that still wants to be somewhat competitive, which honestly, is how most people play the game.

My point being, that they aren't pure fail, which the internet likes to paint things as often: all good or all bad.

@Reecius


One thing I would love y'all to try with the Praet+DLord unit in y'alls BRs is running a unit of Tomb Blades w/stealth in front of them. Obviously Turbo Boost the Blades on the way up the field, giving them a 2+ CS and screening the Praets with a 4+ CS. Additionally, the TBs should be perfect for moping up the squishy bits that come pouring out of the tanks the DLord+TPs are shredding.

That's not a bad idea at all.

I love the TB's. I think a unit that puts out 5 str 6 blasts a turn for 150pts is amazing.

We're going to convert some using Dark Eldar Reavers, so as soon as we have those done, we'll try using them as 2+ screens.

Reecius wrote:That's not a bad idea at all.

I love the TB's. I think a unit that puts out 5 str 6 blasts a turn for 150pts is amazing.

We're going to convert some using Dark Eldar Reavers, so as soon as we have those done, we'll try using them as 2+ screens.

Been thinking the exact same thing. I honestly think if done right I'll like them better than the GW models, at least based off the pic in the dex.

Yeah, the pic in the dex looks a bit clunky.

ShadarLogoth wrote:Their a 5S 5T model with RP, rending and entropic that can potentially kill any unit, vehicle, elite, hq or otherwise ever made? And reliably so for many? SRSLY, what is it with the Praetorians that people hate so much?

Wraiths are cheaper, stronger, and tougher. Praetorians marginalized by a unit within their own codex, which is the only time unit to unit comparisons are actually valid. There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
You obviously have no actual game experience with them or you used them tragically wrong.

You are incorrect.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Their a 5S 5T model with RP, rending and entropic that can potentially kill any unit, vehicle, elite, hq or otherwise ever made? And reliably so for many? SRSLY, what is it with the Praetorians that people hate so much?

Wraiths are cheaper, stronger, and tougher. Praetorians marginalized by a unit within their own codex, which is the only time unit to unit comparisons are actually valid. There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
You obviously have no actual game experience with them or you used them tragically wrong.

You are incorrect.

Except if you take three squads of scarabs...Or you just simply maxed out your FA allowance and still have your elites left.

Kevin949 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

Except if you take three squads of scarabs...Or you just simply maxed out your FA allowance and still have your elites left.

Yes, I already said that.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

Except if you take three squads of scarabs...Or you just simply maxed out your FA allowance and still have your elites left.

Yes, I already said that.

They're always available though, you don't have to max out your FA on scarabs or whatever. Your qualifier was incorrectly used, as the only time wraiths would never be available is if you played a game where the FA slot or multi-wound models were not allowed.

Okay, so I just math-hammered Wraiths, Rod Praetorians, and Blade/Caster Praetorians against Marines, Terminators, and SS Terminators

I found Praetorians with Rods are noticeably better on the charge against these targets than Wraiths or Blade/Caster Praetorians, save against SS termies (they still did better than Wraiths or Blade Praets, just not by as wide a margin). The Wraiths performed best when not getting the charge/subsequent turns. Blade/Caster Praetorians always performed worse against these 3 enemy types, though on not-on-the-charge turns this was a much more narrow gap.

Summary: On the charge, Rod Praetorians perform almost twice as well as Blade/Caster Praetorians against Marines and regular Terminators, and a strong amount better than Wraiths (not quite twice as good, but decently close to). None perform particularly well against storm shield equipped terminators, but Rods squeak out by a small margin.

Off the charge, both types of praetorians lose a lot of steam, while the Wraiths do not, taking the lead. Rod Praetorians still outclass caster/blade praetorians, though.

Of course, 3+ invuln and 2 wounds is substantially better than T5 and RP, and whip coils are lovely as well. This is just looking at the offense.

Ultimately Praetorians just don't have the number of attacks to make good use of Rending, even with the caster pistol increasing that amount. Now, if you're looking for something to fight Dreads or vehicle hunt, they DO have Entropic Strike as well, and Rod Praetorians cannot do this job at all.

Both Praetorians performed a good bit better than I expected, especially compared to Wraiths, but they're both -massively- dependent on getting to shoot + charge to perform. They lose pretty much all their punch if they can't do that. This makes them tricky as counter-charge units, since they can't shoot then.

Corseth wrote:
Both Praetorians performed a good bit better than I expected, especially compared to Wraiths, but they're both -massively- dependent on getting to shoot + charge to perform. They lose pretty much all their punch if they can't do that. This makes them tricky as counter-charge units, since they can't shoot then.

I've found in a few proxied games that tremorstaves and siezmic crucibles really, really help with the counter-assault duties (not in with the praetorians...they can't. I mean with the units that are probably going to get assaulted).

DarknessEternal wrote:Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

It's called "synergy". Things that compliment each other well are usually capable of accomplishing more by working in tandem than either could possibly do on their own.

This isn't a warhammer thing. it's pretty much universal. It's a literal fact of life.

The other problem is that the 1-3 kills (SS-MEQs) that you get from shooting with the rods can also put you out of charge range, which can be a real pain. IMHO wraiths are almost always better, but if your fast slots are full then prets could be a decent addition for a fast assault army (not that I am advocating a necron assault army just yet...).

Arandmoor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

It's called "synergy". Things that compliment each other well are usually capable of accomplishing more by working in tandem than either could possibly do on their own.

This isn't a warhammer thing. it's pretty much universal. It's a literal fact of life.

I'm aware. I'm asking for the rationale behind stating that this is the case with these units.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

It's called "synergy". Things that compliment each other well are usually capable of accomplishing more by working in tandem than either could possibly do on their own.

This isn't a warhammer thing. it's pretty much universal. It's a literal fact of life.

I'm aware. I'm asking for the rationale behind stating that this is the case with these units.

Well, personally I don't think its synergizing with Wraiths as much as there ability to synergize with other units better then wraiths synergize with said units.

DLord/Res Orb/WS synergizes better with Sword and pistol Praets then it does with Wraiths.

Tomb Blades with stealth synergize better with TP's then wraiths, and don't compete for FOS with them (reason being the TBs can provide cover for the TPs, the wraiths obviously don't need the cover). Now over course you might say "well the wraiths don't need the cover in the first place pwnzergwnzerownzerFAIL!"
However, 4+ CS AND RP 4+ works out a bit better then the 3+ invuln. Plus TB's have some very snazzy anti troop, which synergizes with the anti-tank build of the DLord+TPs.

One thing Corseths trials points out to me is that by themselves, Wraiths excel in a more a aggressive role, while TPs (particularly with Rods) excel in hanging back with your Phalanx, and then jumping in and finishing off a softened up assault threat.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:Their a 5S 5T model with RP, rending and entropic that can potentially kill any unit, vehicle, elite, hq or otherwise ever made? And reliably so for many? SRSLY, what is it with the Praetorians that people hate so much?

Wraiths are cheaper, stronger, and tougher. Praetorians marginalized by a unit within their own codex, which is the only time unit to unit comparisons are actually valid. There is no circumstance where a Praetorian unit would be preferable to a Wraith unit were it available.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
You obviously have no actual game experience with them or you used them tragically wrong.

You are incorrect.

You are incorrect. Praetorians are drastically better against armor when equipped with void blades. Do some test rolls. A 5 man praetorian squad will wreck a land raider in assault a great deal of the time, and if not, lower its armor enough for wraiths to take care of it. I personally run them in my Imotehk night-fight wraithwing army for exactly that reason. In a list that contains no scarabs and can't rely on long range firepower to handle armor (because of nightfighting) they fulfill an important role. They're also great for IC and MC assassination. One rending hit on a multi-would model permanently negates the target's armor save.

The point is, they're not useless. You just have to have a plan for them.

They're also great for IC and MC assassination. One rending hit on a multi-would model permanently negates the target's armor save.

That's a great point. They are really the only unit in the codex that can fully take advantage of the entropic ability against non vehicles. One rending wound on a Hivey with a 2+ and you've removed a 45 point upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BY comparison, 10 scarabs on the charge will do on average .55 wounds against 5T+ MS with a 2+ save. Not particularly reliable . (40*(1/2)(1/6)(1/6))=.55

DarknessEternal wrote:

Arandmoor wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Wraiths win plenty on their own. Praetorians never do. Why is mixing them greater than the sum of their parts?

It's called "synergy". Things that compliment each other well are usually capable of accomplishing more by working in tandem than either could possibly do on their own.

This isn't a warhammer thing. it's pretty much universal. It's a literal fact of life.

I'm aware. I'm asking for the rationale behind stating that this is the case with these units.

Whipcords reduce enemy I to 1.

All necrons are I2.

Praetorians with RoC function off of a "limiting return attacks" tactic (through shooting, and though their high S and power weapons) which limit return attacks before they assault, and in subsequent rounds. Voidblades trade reliability for saturation and raw effectiveness vs. vehicles.

Praetorians:
Strengths - Reliable (AP2 shooting, power weapons)
Weaknesses - Low Initiative.

Wraiths synergise with this tactic by further limiting return attacks through their whipcords (I1 means models die before they can attack back). However, wraiths are held back by not having access to power weapons. Their ability to kill in CC is unreliable against models with good armor saves.

Wraiths:
Strengths - Whipcords (wraiths go first, as does anything that assaults their assault target)
Weakness - Unreliable ability to kill (rending)

Wraiths give the assault advantage to any necron unit they assault along side, but praetorians are better equipped than most to take advantage of it. On top of which, they match movement with the wraiths (both being Jump Infantry) meaning you don't need to stoop to any weird movement shenanigans to get both squads to assault at the same time (like you would with lychguard). Wraiths work off of unreliable saturation that RoC praetorians make more effective by reducing the impact of rending's unreliability.

They cover for each other's weaknesses without introducing any new weaknesses (like say the challenges introduced to assaulting when you're not jump infantry). Take 3 whipcord wraiths and pair them with 6 RoC praetorians. You'll get more killing power than 10 of either model by themselves.

Kevin949 wrote:This is why you run praetorians in tandem with wraiths. By themselves they're not going to win you any wars really, but if you have a minimum squad of praets that are backing up wraiths as you trounce around the battlefield, they are very devastating.

I agree with this approach. The point is not Praetorians OVER Wraiths. There's a ton of competition in FA, so after those slots fill with Scarabs and Wraiths, Praetorians give you the ability to put even more jump infantry on the table...jump infantry with S5, entropic strike and rending that will wreck vehicle face. Maybe not like Scarabs wreck vehicles, but they'll do the job. Entropic strike is a fairly amazing ability vs. vehicles IMO.

I like them less in an anti-infantry role, whether with rods or voidblades, although the casters can certainly be useful for thinning out a horde unit a little. Still, they can certainly win some CCs...you just haveta pick your spots or pair them with Wraiths etc as previously mentioned.