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How likely is he to run up against things with WS, T, or I of 6+ though?

Durza wrote:How likely is he to run up against things with WS, T, or I of 6+ though?

If one plays against DE often, it is pretty likely.
In fact, all of the DE HQ's are at least WS6, except for the Haemy's.

Majority of SM HQs are WS 6. Captains and Chapter masters, and all equivilents, are WS 6. Mephiston and Draigo and Brother hood Champs are WS 7. Sanguinior is 8, and Crowe is 9.

Swarmlord and Hive Tyrants are 9 and 8. Parasite is 6 as is Lictors and Genestealers. Broodlords are 7, Deathleaper is 9.

Avatar is 10, Autarchs 6, Pheonix Lords 7.

Chaos Lords 6. Greater Daemons 8.

Bloodthirster is 10, Skulltaker 9, Keeper of Secrets is 8.

He could probably take on any of those with a good chance of coming out of it, bar the GKs. Draigo would eat him alive, and Crowe and the Champ would take him down with him.

I had no idea the thread existed. If someone feels i violated a copyright or something, i can change it; but please come with something constructive.

And, blood reaper, true, i asked for opinions, but i'd like more constructive hints than "he's ridicolously overpowered" and "use Abaddon instead"


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Also, if i made the weapon ignore invuls instead? THAT would make mr. reaper rage like never before. Ignore invuls is pretty much GK+DE territory.

Re-roll successful invuls then? That'd be going to middle ground, toning it down for people who share DR's view, but keeping it special for people who want him to be more individual like you

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I had no idea the thread existed. If someone feels i violated a copyright or something, i can change it; but please come with something constructive.

And, blood reaper, true, i asked for opinions, but i'd like more constructive hints than "he's ridicolously overpowered" and "use Abaddon instead"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, if i made the weapon ignore invuls instead? THAT would make mr. reaper rage like never before. Ignore invuls is pretty much GK+DE territory.

Nah, I'm fine. You're fine, everything's fine! No copyright intended, no copyright violated.


I agree with BR.He is indeed overpoweered, and his weapon is far too powerful.

As for ignoring invulnerables, that wqas something old C'tan ansd Warscythes did, and old Psycannons and Incinerators. GW seems to truly be making them, INVUKLNERABLITY saves now. However, the forced rerolls works well. Swarmlord and Astorath seem to be leading the way in this new style. But it should remain a Daemon weapon with +1 Str.

\So put a note. "Instead of gaining any abilities through Marks, Z'sath gives +1Str and forces opponents to reroll successful invulnerable saves.

It is overpowered, while the fluff is fine the rules are in fact ridiculous and need to be downgraded.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Lord Kraxis
pts: 225

WS7 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 LD10 SV2+

I'm not too put out by the stats, while everyone is making a deal about WS7, its only a big difference if he would normally be fighting someone with WS7, or WS1, 2 and 3. And if its the latter, he was probably going to make them cry in combat anyway... And the odd fight against someone with WS7, well, he's a powerful, ancient, well trained chaos lord. I don't like the idea of every man and his dog having WS7, and if you are going to make a libby character or something you should really tone down his combat because this guy is clearly trying to be the dominant bloke in that area in his warband, but I don't think its too silly for him to have it.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Wargear:
Terminator Armor
Combi-melta
Z’Sath
Mark of Chaos Ascendant (not included in profile)

Z’Sath: Z’Sath is a Daemon Weapon
that allows you to choose each turn which bonus you want.
It also grants Melta Bombs to the user.

I think drop the Melta Bomb part of the sword and have him get +1 S and force the enemy to re-roll successful invulns. That is powerful, it is unique (I think) in the chaos dex, that should be enough for someone wanting a powerful and unique character.
The rest of the wargear I'm cool with apart from the mark. As a few people have said, that is abbadon's turf, don't cut his grass. You say you want a character who is unique and individual and what not, then give him a mark which only one other guy has (who is unique and individual partly because of his mark and what it means?). Personally I'd re-work the fluff for him and his sword, have the daemon in the sword be called 'the usurper' or 'the big-headed' or something along those lines, it has twisted your characters mind into turning his army to worship him, and although he is not the strongest daemon, he works behind the scenes, avoiding confrontations with other gods, trying to become more powerful and eventually break from being just a daemon to almost a god himself. Or something along those lines. Then you can give him the mark of Z'whatever and it'll be something unique, individual, and most of all yours!

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Special rules:
Will of Chaos, Stubborn, Tactical Mastery, Supreme lord, Psychic talent, Chosen of Kraxis, 5+ invulnerable save.

Chosen of Kraxis
The warriors that accompany their leader to war is the elite of the Glacier Serpents; the best of the best. Pick one Chaos Space Marine squad, a chaos chosen squad or a chaos Terminator squad. That squad has +1 WS.

Tactical Mastery
An army that includes Kraxis can reroll reserve rolls as long as he is alive.

Supreme Lord
In an army that includes Kraxis, Chosen are Troops choices.

Psychic Talent
Kraxis has a minor psychic talent. Though normally too small to make a difference, Sharikh has augmented his powers. While not as powerful as a dedicated sorcerer, Kraxis can still use this power to his advantage. Kraxis has the Psyker special rule. He can only use the following power:
Minor Warptime
Allows the user to reroll one to hit and one to wound roll in close combat that turn

I guess I'm cool with chosen of Kraxis, who's to say he doesn't have a picked squad of trained/tooled/stimmed/whatever'd up guys behind him. Supreme Lord...it seems like you want to make chosen used more, why not go the Pedro route and make them scoring? They become more useful, without this list turning into a chosen-spam kinda list (similar to purifiers for GK). And if he's this powerful and focused a fighter to have WS7, maybe drop the psychic talent. It's unnecessary, and can help him come down in points a bit.

I like it!

It is overpowered, while the fluff is fine the rules are in fact ridiculous and need to be downgraded

Oh really, you haven't said that before.

I guess I'm cool with chosen of Kraxis, who's to say he doesn't have a picked squad of trained/tooled/stimmed/whatever'd up guys behind him. Supreme Lord...it seems like you want to make chosen used more, why not go the Pedro route and make them scoring? They become more useful, without this list turning into a chosen-spam kinda list (similar to purifiers for GK). And if he's this powerful and focused a fighter to have WS7, maybe drop the psychic talent. It's unnecessary, and can help him come down in points a bit.

You got it, dropping some stuff.



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blood reaper wrote:1: Why are your marines better than other marines who have fought through the battles of Terra, Cadia and so on
2: Why the mark of Chaos Ascendent, it belongs to Abbadon for a reason. Remove it, he doesn't need it with the profile.
3: Your Daemon weapon is ridiculous, whatever bonus he wants is just a pointless rule. Remove that and its fine.

That is all.

Just thought i could answer this.

Question 1. Because in the battles for terra, cadia and so on thsese armies in question suffered a large amount of casualties. They are replaced by new recruits, and the veterans are stil there, so CSM are much more varied than normal SM.
There are three categories of Marines in the Glacier Serpents:

1: the highest ranked. these are the terminators, Kraxis and Sharikh, who all must be original Thunder Dragon traitors. (it is only those 7 left- if they die, then replacing losses would be a different matter)
These are very powerful, and this is the reason for the Chosen of Kraxis rule.

2: the Glacier Serpents: The very best and most experienced of "recruits" have their armor repainted, their wargear improved and generally recive the best of everything- after the above have taken the lion's share, of course.

3. the Renegades. Most of those joins the Glacier Serpents are in this category, and irregulary forming the general combat units. Many join, for there is both safety and glory to be had if one fights in greater numbers.

Question 2. Sure, any suggestions of another way to represent his favor? (other than his weapon, that is edited)

Question 3. -_-, this is the.... Third? Fourth? time you complain, but sure, i edited it to someone else's suggestion. What's the problem next? Is power weapon too OP? LD 10?

No the he can have any bonus he wants special rule was ridiculous, but the changes you've made are getting to the state where I'd say this is fine. Remove the Mark of Chaos Ascendent then he's perfectly balanced, but until then he isn't.

Change it to mark of Chaos Undivided, or Favoured.

Mark of chaos undivided? which does...? ( i know what Icon of chaos glory does, but i think stubborn is enough)
And what does Favoured do?

They are just alternate names, as to not encroach on Failbbaddon's turf.

Good idea. I'll try that, though i believe blood reaper will disagree.

Sorry I didn't get back to you right away, the holiday weekend kept me busy.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Lord Kraxis
pts: 225?

WS7 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I5 A4 LD10 SV2+

So, not only sticking with WS 7, but also bumping BS up to 6? Why?

The list of things with various WS has been provided, which I'll amend to include Abaddon, Kharn, and Lucius (all of whom have WS7). It's not a big deal balance wise if you want Kraxis to have it, you just need to be aware that you are essentially stating he is just as skilled with a blade as these individuals. That's one heck of a statement, and your fluff should reflect that.

And honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think WS7 is a nice way to give this character some uniqueness.

I'm unclear as to why you upped his BS to 6? Nothing in the fluff indicated he was among the greatest marksmen in the galaxy.?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Wargear:
Mark of the Favoured (All marks+eternal warrior)

I don't see why you are so dead set on this. This is why you are getting the overpowered speech. I don't really see how you can keep Abaddon's mark and still make this a viable, unique character.

If this is seriously a sticking point with you, there's no reason this character should be cheaper than Abaddon (with your added rules, he should probably be more expensive).

I suggested Eternal Warrior to represent the favor of the Chaos Gods, which is a very potent ability. You don't need to dial it up to 11 to have a powerful yet playable character.

My official suggestion? Eternal Warrior + a 4+ invlunerable save = Favor of the Gods. No need to go any more ridiculous than that. It makes him difficult to kill (representing the chaos gods protecting a favored pawn), and leaves his killing ability tied to his own skill.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Z’Sath: Z’Sath is a power weapon that grants +1 strength, +D6 attacks (roll each turn) and forces the enemy to reroll successful invulnerable saves.

This would be an excellent Daemon Weapon, but I note you've removed that drawback, which causes balance problems. It should still be a daemon weapon. If that were the case, I'd call this one great (it's similar to the old Dread Axe in the 3.5 Chaos dex). If you are adamant on removing the Daemon Weapon drawback, I'd suggest it should only add +1 attack, rather than +D6. Maybe put in a fluff blurb about how Z'sath has fooled Kraxis into believing he's mastered the Daemon, which allows Z'sath to further his own schemes unbeknownst to Kraxis.

If you did not intend to remove the Daemon Weapon drawback, I'd suggest this as an alternate wording:

Z'Sath is a Daemon Weapon that grants +1 Strength and forces any model wounded by it to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Special rules:
Will of Chaos, Stubborn, Tactical Mastery, Supreme lord, Chosen of Kraxis, 4+ invulnerable save.

Will of Chaos is a copy of ATSKNF? Why not just give him a built in Icon of Chaos Glory? Or better yet, maybe get rid of Stubborn, and make Will of Chaos grant Fearless to Kraxis and any unit he joins? That keeps you from having to try to string together the best bits of rules from different codexes to try and have all of the good stuff without any bad stuff.

I suppose if you are adamantly opposed to Fearless, Stubborn with an Icon of Chaos Glory should cover your bases pretty well (and should be reflected in his cost, as it's a potent combo).

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Chosen of Kraxis
The warriors that accompany their leader to war is the elite of the Glacier Serpents; the best of the best. Pick one Chaos Space Marine squad, a chaos chosen squad or a chaos Terminator squad. That squad has +1 WS.

This seems like it should cost something (like Fabius Bile's ability). Maybe 1 point per model in the unit? I don't know. It still feels a bit ... off somehow. Maybe specify that it doesn't affect any attached Independent Characters? It doesn't seem all that unbalancing (depending on how much Kraxis winds up costing).

That, and it still seems out of place (and mis-named). It seems like the rules for Supreme Lord belong here, as those rules seem to better represent what you are going for here.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Tactical Mastery
An army that includes Kraxis can reroll reserve rolls as long as he is alive.

If this is a sticking point, it isn't really that bad. The rules just feel like something more related to communication than tactical acumen to me.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Supreme Lord
In an army that includes Kraxis, Chosen are scoring units.

This I like, and is much better than making them Troops. Although I would change the wording to "In an army lead by Kraxis,".

So, not only sticking with WS 7, but also bumping BS up to 6? Why?

The list of things with various WS has been provided, which I'll amend to include Abaddon, Kharn, and Lucius (all of whom have WS7). It's not a big deal balance wise if you want Kraxis to have it, you just need to be aware that you are essentially stating he is just as skilled with a blade as these individuals. That's one heck of a statement, and your fluff should reflect that.

And honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think WS7 is a nice way to give this character some uniqueness.

I'm unclear as to why you upped his BS to 6? Nothing in the fluff indicated he was among the greatest marksmen in the galaxy.?

One of the best marksmen in the galaxy? Fat chance. I suppose you are referring to Telion, with his BS of 6, who is the best marksman in the Ultramarines and (fluffwise) always get a headshot far over the weapon's official range;

Then take Lelith Hesperax. 50% more accuracy than a gauranteed headshot equals..... guaranteed headshot?

And yes, she has ranged weapons. Planetstrike interceptor guns.

I simply wanted to give him BS 6 because it 1. reflects that he has not only been chopping around for 3000 years, he has been shooting around for 3000 years too.
And 2. i did not feel it so important to remove because it does not make much difference. (if he rolls a 1, then he got a reroll on 6s.)

And those characters you mentioned have WS6. They were made in a time where almost all HQ's had no more than 6, and only gods were feasible to have more (or phoenix lords and such strange guys)

I don't see why you are so dead set on this. This is why you are getting the overpowered speech. I don't really see how you can keep Abaddon's mark and still make this a viable, unique character.

If this is seriously a sticking point with you, there's no reason this character should be cheaper than Abaddon (with your added rules, he should probably be more expensive).

I suggested Eternal Warrior to represent the favor of the Chaos Gods, which is a very potent ability. You don't need to dial it up to 11 to have a powerful yet playable character.

My official suggestion? Eternal Warrior + a 4+ invlunerable save = Favor of the Gods. No need to go any more ridiculous than that. It makes him difficult to kill (representing the chaos gods protecting a favored pawn), and leaves his killing ability tied to his own skill.

I'll think about that. Good point.

This would be an excellent Daemon Weapon, but I note you've removed that drawback, which causes balance problems. It should still be a daemon weapon. If that were the case, I'd call this one great (it's similar to the old Dread Axe in the 3.5 Chaos dex). If you are adamant on removing the Daemon Weapon drawback, I'd suggest it should only add +1 attack, rather than +D6. Maybe put in a fluff blurb about how Z'sath has fooled Kraxis into believing he's mastered the Daemon, which allows Z'sath to further his own schemes unbeknownst to Kraxis.

If you did not intend to remove the Daemon Weapon drawback, I'd suggest this as an alternate wording:

Z'Sath is a Daemon Weapon that grants +1 Strength and forces any model wounded by it to re-roll successful invulnerable saves.

Editing now, you'll have to decide yourself if the change is OK.

Will of Chaos is a copy of ATSKNF? Why not just give him a built in Icon of Chaos Glory? Or better yet, maybe get rid of Stubborn, and make Will of Chaos grant Fearless to Kraxis and any unit he joins? That keeps you from having to try to string together the best bits of rules from different codexes to try and have all of the good stuff without any bad stuff.

I suppose if you are adamantly opposed to Fearless, Stubborn with an Icon of Chaos Glory should cover your bases pretty well (and should be reflected in his cost, as it's a potent combo).

I gave him that because I felt like he should be courageous (no running away form the battle!) but not an idiot, like the many other Lords, who are somewhat....bloodcrazed.

CSm may be CSM, but they are still Marines.

They Shall Know No Fear.

This seems like it should cost something (like Fabius Bile's ability). Maybe 1 point per model in the unit? I don't know. It still feels a bit ... off somehow. Maybe specify that it doesn't affect any attached Independent Characters? It doesn't seem all that unbalancing (depending on how much Kraxis winds up costing).

That, and it still seems out of place (and mis-named). It seems like the rules for Supreme Lord belong here, as those rules seem to better represent what you are going for here.

I have absolutely no idea why it should be mis-named; i am editing it now though.

If this is a sticking point, it isn't really that bad. The rules just feel like something more related to communication than tactical acumen to me.

Editing.

This I like, and is much better than making them Troops. Although I would change the wording to "In an army lead by Kraxis,".

Editing.
Also, any suggestions of anything to add? By now you should know this guy pretty well, so I'm sure you have ideas.

By the way, Kraxis' model is almost complete.
I'll put it up on the gallery. I hope the finished rules will justify the model.

i also decided to give the Tactical Mastery rule to my sorcerer, under another name. It is more fitting.

@ IcyCool

What you said about the Daemon Weapon

Z'sath ios a Daemon Weapon that grants +1 Str and forces enemies wounded by it to reroll successful invulnerable saves

IIRC, Daemon Weapon already grant +1 Str. Is that inclusive, so this would give +2 Str instaed?

Deadshot wrote:@ IcyCool

What you said about the Daemon Weapon

Z'sath ios a Daemon Weapon that grants +1 Str and forces enemies wounded by it to reroll successful invulnerable saves

IIRC, Daemon Weapon already grant +1 Str. Is that inclusive, so this would give +2 Str instaed?

No, the only things all Daemon Weapons have in common are:

* They are power weapons
* They grant +D6 attacks in assault. If you roll a 1, you make no attacks and instead suffer a wound with no armor saves allowed.

Which one gives +1 Str then?

Undivided.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I simply wanted to give him BS 6 because it 1. reflects that he has not only been chopping around for 3000 years, he has been shooting around for 3000 years too.

BS 6 is exceptional, and should be reflected in your fluff with more than just "he's really old, so he's good at a lot of stuff". That's just my opinion mind you, but there it is.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:And those characters you mentioned have WS6. They were made in a time where almost all HQ's had no more than 6, and only gods were feasible to have more (or phoenix lords and such strange guys)

No, check your Chaos codex again, those three have WS 7.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Editing now, you'll have to decide yourself if the change is OK.

You really have an aversion to the bad stuff, eh? At any rate, the weapon seems ok. It's still "better for the sake of being better", but isn't overpowering, so that looks to be ok. The fluff works reasonably too, so all said, I think Z'Sath looks to be good.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I gave him that because I felt like he should be courageous (no running away form the battle!) but not an idiot, like the many other Lords, who are somewhat....bloodcrazed.

CSm may be CSM, but they are still Marines.

They Shall Know No Fear.

Well, no. The Emperor's marines know no fear. Chaos Space Marines are generally out for themselves, and not looking to heroically sacrifice themselves for the Emperor and Mankind. Again, I think you can reflect your fluff here accurately without stealing rules from other codexes. This is a bland cherry-pick that stains an otherwise promising character. I suggested some alternatives, is there a reason you don't like any of those?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I have absolutely no idea why it should be mis-named; i am editing it now though.

Ah, by "mis-named" I mean that it seems like the rule title and flavor text should have the Supreme Lord rules. Like this:

Chosen of Kraxis
The warriors that accompany their leader to war are the elite of the Glacier Serpents; the best of the best. In an army that is lead by Kraxis, Chosen are scoring units.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Also, any suggestions of anything to add? By now you should know this guy pretty well, so I'm sure you have ideas.

Well, I think you can tie the Icebinding in somehow, or the original Thunder Dragon traitors that turned traitor with Kraxis. Something like:

The Icebound Guard
When Kraxis broke away from the Thunder Dragons, several of his battle brothers turned traitor with him. These ancient, skillful warriors have fought by Kraxis' side in countless battles. With lifespans unnaturally prolonged by the Icebinding ritual, they have had thousands of years to hone their skill. Kraxis may take a Retinue selected from the Chaos Terminators entry. They may not select an Icon; instead each member of the retinue (aside from Kraxis) receives +1WS.

Aside from the suggestions above, I'm not sure Kraxis needs a book of special rules. He's different, and not necessarily overpowered (barring a few changes left to be made). Once you hammer out these rules, it'll be time to look at his cost and adjust appropriately.

I don't like the BS 6 for no reason other than 'he's old'. By that logic, Ahriman should be lobbing spells around at BS9 or something.

He's the same Bs as Autarchs and GKGMs. In that respect, I would advise either WS 6, or Bs 5.

I don't like the BS 6 for no reason other than 'he's old'. By that logic, Ahriman should be lobbing spells around at BS9 or something.

He's the same Bs as Autarchs and GKGMs. In that respect, I would advise either WS 6, or Bs 5.

BS 6 is exceptional, and should be reflected in your fluff with more than just "he's really old, so he's good at a lot of stuff". That's just my opinion mind you, but there it is.

Allright, allright, BS 5 it is then.

Ah, by "mis-named" I mean that it seems like the rule title and flavor text should have the Supreme Lord rules. Like this:

Chosen of Kraxis
The warriors that accompany their leader to war are the elite of the Glacier Serpents; the best of the best. In an army that is lead by Kraxis, Chosen are scoring units.

Er..... I imagine there might have been a misunderstanding there. With "Chosen of Kraxis" I meant that those that follow him to war ARE the original, all-but immortal ex-Thunder Dragons. Those ARE the chosen of kraxis, and while they might not have the same talent and experience as their lord, (he was a Veteran Sergeant back then, they were standard Marines)they are still very skilled. That is the reason.
Supreme Lord? Well, since he IS the lord, he can bring the most Chosen (The Glacier Serpents themselves) instead of relying on the more numerous CSM's (renegades)

Well, I think you can tie the Icebinding in somehow, or the original Thunder Dragon traitors that turned traitor with Kraxis. Something like:

The Icebound Guard
When Kraxis broke away from the Thunder Dragons, several of his battle brothers turned traitor with him. These ancient, skillful warriors have fought by Kraxis' side in countless battles. With lifespans unnaturally prolonged by the Icebinding ritual, they have had thousands of years to hone their skill. Kraxis may take a Retinue selected from the Chaos Terminators entry. They may not select an Icon; instead each member of the retinue (aside from Kraxis) receives +1WS.

Aside from the suggestions above, I'm not sure Kraxis needs a book of special rules. He's different, and not necessarily overpowered (barring a few changes left to be made). Once you hammer out these rules, it'll be time to look at his cost and adjust appropriately.

I agree with the last three sentences. Yet, the Icebinding only increased strength, speed and resilience, not skill (I considered giving everyone a boost in these stats, but soon dismissed it since everyone would be angry)
I think that part is fine.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Er..... I imagine there might have been a misunderstanding there. With "Chosen of Kraxis" I meant that those that follow him to war ARE the original, all-but immortal ex-Thunder Dragons. Those ARE the chosen of kraxis, and while they might not have the same talent and experience as their lord, (he was a Veteran Sergeant back then, they were standard Marines)they are still very skilled. That is the reason.

So Chosen =/= Chosen? That's a bit confusing, don't you think?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Supreme Lord? Well, since he IS the lord, he can bring the most Chosen (The Glacier Serpents themselves) instead of relying on the more numerous CSM's (renegades)

Well, here's the deal with Scoring units. Scoring units are the ones used to hold objectives. So they are usually the ones you have a large number of. Other reasons might include necessity (i.e. the force is whittled down to just elite troopers), or as part of some strategy.

So while I like the rule allowing Kraxis to make Chosen scoring, the fluff behind the name doesn't fit. Maybe this would be a good fit for your Tactical Mastery rule name? So:

Tactical Mastery
Kraxis often employs unusual, yet brilliant, tactics on the battlefield. In an army lead by Kraxis, Chosen are Scoring.

Then you could ditch the Supreme Lord wording completely.

Next, maybe figure out how to fix your Chosen of Kraxis rule? I suggested the terminator retinue. You could probably ditch the retinue part, and extend what I said to a single unit of Terminators or Chosen. I would avoid allowing it to be applied to a squad of regular chaos marines though, given that these are supposed to be long term veterans. I would also ditch the note about only taking 5. I would encourage making the +1 WS be something the unit takes instead of an Icon. Maybe even make it a special Icon? Call it something like "The Warbanner of Kraxis"?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I agree with the last three sentences. Yet, the Icebinding only increased strength, speed and resilience, not skill (I considered giving everyone a boost in these stats, but soon dismissed it since everyone would be angry)

Well, yes, a boost to Tougness, Strength, and Initiative without a nice price increase to go with it is broken, so people would naturally call you on it. What did you expect?

That said, I think you are getting close here.

I would encourage you again to avoid cribbing the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule for three reasons:

1. It's a tacky cherry-pick that really doesn't make any sense.
2. I think you can achieve what you want without it.
3. It makes Matt Ward right; All marines (apparently even spiky ones) really just want to be Ultramarines.

IcyCool wrote:

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Er..... I imagine there might have been a misunderstanding there. With "Chosen of Kraxis" I meant that those that follow him to war ARE the original, all-but immortal ex-Thunder Dragons. Those ARE the chosen of kraxis, and while they might not have the same talent and experience as their lord, (he was a Veteran Sergeant back then, they were standard Marines)they are still very skilled. That is the reason.

So Chosen =/= Chosen? That's a bit confusing, don't you think?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Supreme Lord? Well, since he IS the lord, he can bring the most Chosen (The Glacier Serpents themselves) instead of relying on the more numerous CSM's (renegades)

Well, here's the deal with Scoring units. Scoring units are the ones used to hold objectives. So they are usually the ones you have a large number of. Other reasons might include necessity (i.e. the force is whittled down to just elite troopers), or as part of some strategy.

So while I like the rule allowing Kraxis to make Chosen scoring, the fluff behind the name doesn't fit. Maybe this would be a good fit for your Tactical Mastery rule name? So:

Tactical Mastery
Kraxis often employs unusual, yet brilliant, tactics on the battlefield. In an army lead by Kraxis, Chosen are Scoring.

Then you could ditch the Supreme Lord wording completely.

Next, maybe figure out how to fix your Chosen of Kraxis rule? I suggested the terminator retinue. You could probably ditch the retinue part, and extend what I said to a single unit of Terminators or Chosen. I would avoid allowing it to be applied to a squad of regular chaos marines though, given that these are supposed to be long term veterans. I would also ditch the note about only taking 5. I would encourage making the +1 WS be something the unit takes instead of an Icon. Maybe even make it a special Icon? Call it something like "The Warbanner of Kraxis"?

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I agree with the last three sentences. Yet, the Icebinding only increased strength, speed and resilience, not skill (I considered giving everyone a boost in these stats, but soon dismissed it since everyone would be angry)

Well, yes, a boost to Tougness, Strength, and Initiative without a nice price increase to go with it is broken, so people would naturally call you on it. What did you expect?

That said, I think you are getting close here.

I would encourage you again to avoid cribbing the "And They Shall Know No Fear" rule for three reasons:

1. It's a tacky cherry-pick that really doesn't make any sense.
2. I think you can achieve what you want without it.
3. It makes Matt Ward right; All marines (apparently even spiky ones) really just want to be Ultramarines.

Or BA. Or SW. Or ALL marines.......all but csm. Bullying :(

Allright, allright, I'll remove it.

Swapping names seems good, so i'll do that, but the rules seem good as they are; they should have an Icon if they want to, but no more than 5 troopers in the squad. After all, there is only five left.
icons is also a great, already-established way to increase their power, and one that noone can really complain about. (at least not to me)

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Swapping names seems good, so i'll do that, but the rules seem goo as they are; they shouold have an Icon if they want to, but no more than 5 troopers in the squad. After all, there is only five left.
icons is also a great, already-established way to increase their power, and one that noone can really complain about. (at least not to me)

I would still urge you not to allow that rule to be used on a regular Chaos Space Marine squad (keep it just for Chosen and Terminators), just because your fluff indicates these guys are ancient veterans, which doesn't seem to fit. That said, I don't think it is broken, balance-wise, so if you kept it that way, meh.

I think this is the point where his points cost should be evaluated. I'll take a look at my Chaos codex tonight and see about getting some estimates for cost up by tomorrow.

Allright, I'll remove that. But that'll be the last thing i fix (hopefully)

Ok, let's look at points cost. My guess is that your 225 cost is probably right to start at, and you'll probably see after a bit of playtesting that it could come down a few points.

A standard Chaos Lord with Terminator Armor and a Daemon weapon is 145 points. A Termie Lord cannot normally have meltabombs, so let's err on costing more and put him at 155 with meltabombs. (Z'sath seems to be close to on par with the power of other Daemon Weapons, but a small bump may be in order, we'll see in the next bit).

Now we have the following things to account for:

+1 WS
Eternal Warrior
4+ Invulnerable
The Icebound
Tactical Mastery
(Z'Sath possible price increase)

We know the cost for the Invulnerable save boost (Mark of Tzeentch), so we add that bringing us to 170. Let's say 5 points covers the Weapon Skill increase (this plus the extra paid for Meltabombs nicely covers the uniqueness of Z'Sath), so now we are at 175 and have three rules to add:

Eternal Warrior
The Icebound
Tactical Mastery

These are the tough ones to price out. I'd say Eternal Warrior is on par with the Mark of Nurgle, maybe a few points less. So let's call that another 15 points bringing us to 190.

I'm thinking that you are maybe looking at 210-215 for a fair cost. Again, playtesting will show whether his costs needs to go up, down, or stay the same. I'd certainly feel comfortable with you taking this character at 210 points, even in a competitive game.