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Veteran Sergeant wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.

The setting was supposed to be grimdark, but it never actually was. You aren't supposed to take Orks seriously.

You've got it wrong. The setting was supposed to be a parody, but then it began taking itself too seriously.

Orks are the joke race of 40k they aren't supposed to be taken seriously or be grimdark.
Now the stuff with the Necrons..........well yeah that's a bit fluffy

The Eternal Warriors were dicussing the new Sisters "codex" and metioned how the acts of faith were finite, when before you got more depending on the army's size (Correct me on this one if I'm wrong, I've only been around since the new edition came out). Maybe this is representing how the Emperor is growing somehow weaker, because the most recent books say that the Tech Adepts have discovered un repairable breaks in the Golden Throne.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......

he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)

Calgar - he is a chapter master and it was a highly defensible position, so this isn't beyond the realm of possibilities and it isn't like he does this every week or something, it's a singular example of what he is capable of
Maugan Ra - so you catch on to him holding off a Tyranid invasion, but not the fact that all Phoenix Lords are effectively immortal (whoever puts on their armor after they die becomes them), or that he went into the Warp, found his original Craftworld, they weren't corrupted AND brought them safely out of the Eye of Terror? Yeah I agree he is portrayed as some kind of super-Eldar
Mephiston - never heard that bit about him, though I have read about how he overcame the Black Rage and that isn't too far fetched.
Spirit warriors (Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned and Ghost Knights) - these are a little far-fetched, but they are portrayed as, fluff wise, random occurrences. The BA have no control on the Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned pick their own fights, Ghost Knights are the only ones with some measure of reliability because they are fixed on one character, but only show up when he is desperate. They more add that sliver of hope to their respective forces.
Necrons - yeah they went from omnicidal to just threatening, yeah the Silent King and probably other overlords want to reverse the bio-transference and get flesh bodies again (which will suck for whoever they try to do that too) but they have to help the rest of the galaxy deal with the Tyranid in order to do that
Draigo - he didn't just carve the previous supreme grand masters name into Mortarion, he carved it into his heart ,which means splitting his chest cavity open, all while just being a Grand Master himself, since he just got the field promotion to Supreme Grand Master a few minutes before (even that doesn't work as it requires consensus of all Grand Masters to elect one) and now he lives in the Warp relatively unchallenged, this I don't have much of an issue with, he only did a few impressive things in the Warp and all the greater daemons decided he isn't worth their time. Plus he can't permanently get out, so he sort of falls into the sliver of hope thing the spirit warriors fall into. He is fluff wise totally ridiculously powerful but I believe he is supposed to be there as a setup for the Emperor's rebirth IF GW ever clocks the story forward.

CrashCanuck wrote:

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......

he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)

Calgar - he is a chapter master and it was a highly defensible position, so this isn't beyond the realm of possibilities and it isn't like he does this every week or something, it's a singular example of what he is capable of
Maugan Ra - so you catch on to him holding off a Tyranid invasion, but not the fact that all Phoenix Lords are effectively immortal (whoever puts on their armor after they die becomes them), or that he went into the Warp, found his original Craftworld, they weren't corrupted AND brought them safely out of the Eye of Terror? Yeah I agree he is portrayed as some kind of super-Eldar
Mephiston - never heard that bit about him, though I have read about how he overcame the Black Rage and that isn't too far fetched.
Spirit warriors (Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned and Ghost Knights) - these are a little far-fetched, but they are portrayed as, fluff wise, random occurrences. The BA have no control on the Sanguinor, Legion of the Damned pick their own fights, Ghost Knights are the only ones with some measure of reliability because they are fixed on one character, but only show up when he is desperate. They more add that sliver of hope to their respective forces.
Necrons - yeah they went from omnicidal to just threatening, yeah the Silent King and probably other overlords want to reverse the bio-transference and get flesh bodies again (which will suck for whoever they try to do that too) but they have to help the rest of the galaxy deal with the Tyranid in order to do that
Draigo - he didn't just carve the previous supreme grand masters name into Mortarion, he carved it into his heart ,which means splitting his chest cavity open, all while just being a Grand Master himself, since he just got the field promotion to Supreme Grand Master a few minutes before (even that doesn't work as it requires consensus of all Grand Masters to elect one) and now he lives in the Warp relatively unchallenged, this I don't have much of an issue with, he only did a few impressive things in the Warp and all the greater daemons decided he isn't worth their time. Plus he can't permanently get out, so he sort of falls into the sliver of hope thing the spirit warriors fall into. He is fluff wise totally ridiculously powerful but I believe he is supposed to be there as a setup for the Emperor's rebirth IF GW ever clocks the story forward.

Draigo- So a simple single Supreme Grand Master grey knight best a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, has time to rip his chest cavity open, then proceeds to carve his former master's name in it and just keeps on truckin. And this is believable? A Daemon Primarch.....who I believe its said to be in the same room the plauges he has eat away armor and flesh alike....really?

Maugan Ra- from what I have read so far just seems like there making him into a Eldar Calgar, an Eldar one man army who defines what an eldar warrior should be

Mephiston- The BA I use to love but now I would like to see him suddenly reveal he is worshiping chaos and then start a civil war within the chapter. Or he could possibly just become a reborn Sanguinious.

I think the guard are still pretty grim dark. Your given a weapon that is great by most standards, and armor that can stop a .50 cal round, but compared to the aliens and super humans it might as well be a flashlight and t shirt. And you then go and fight these, knowing your going to die, but that your death means that x more humans will continue to live. Men must die so thar Man endures.

But space marines , not so grim dark.

TrollPie wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.

The setting was supposed to be grimdark, but it never actually was. You aren't supposed to take Orks seriously.

You've got it wrong. The setting was supposed to be a parody, but then it began taking itself too seriously.

Blame 3rd Edition.

Hmm, I stil think of Warhammer 40k to be pretty grim and dark, that may just be because I tune the crazy fluff out of my head...

It's was more grim and less dark in the past. Before it was gruesome and tragic and had people taking drugs and being executed and sacrificed. Now they've dropped some of the more adult content and try to make it seem 'dark' with certain characters doing 'dark' stuff.

The Realm of Chaos books are very different to the recent Grey Knights codex for instance.

So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.

Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?

I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.

I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.

Frankenberry wrote:So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.

Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?

I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.

I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.

I agree with this sentiment completely and wish that agreement known. Alas, I'm one of the few who thinks along these lines; going by the attitudes of some fans I've encountered, 40K's only redeeming characteristic is how no human ever wins at anything ever, deriving an almost sadistic pleasure from how hard the Imperium is failing and decrying as effete and faboyish any sign that any one billion people died slightly less nightmarishly than the previous billion. I simply have no patience for it.

Yeah, I think a setting like 40K is supposed to have some hope and victory for the "good guys" (humanity). It can still be a scary and forbidding and grim universe even if it's more or less a stalemate (like the old fluff used to suggest). I mean, even if the threat of the various Xenos is no longer at "Weregonnadie"it isn't like the Imperium becomes a fun place of flowers and happiness and freedom.

Joey wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.

Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.

God no.

I suggest you Google Blizzard copies GW and see what comes up.

Lord Chiasson wrote:

Draigo- So a simple single Supreme Grand Master grey knight best a Daemon Primarch of Nurgle, has time to rip his chest cavity open, then proceeds to carve his former master's name in it and just keeps on truckin. And this is believable? A Daemon Primarch.....who I believe its said to be in the same room the plauges he has eat away armor and flesh alike....really?

Maugan Ra- from what I have read so far just seems like there making him into a Eldar Calgar, an Eldar one man army who defines what an eldar warrior should be

Mephiston- The BA I use to love but now I would like to see him suddenly reveal he is worshiping chaos and then start a civil war within the chapter. Or he could possibly just become a reborn Sanguinious.

The only believable part about Draigo for me is that he has done some impressive things while in the warp and made himself not worth the time of the Greater Daemons there. As far as him splitting a Daemon Primarchs chest open and carving a name into his heart, yeah that's just insane.

Ixion wrote:

Frankenberry wrote:So the general consensus is that because the good guys aren't getting raped on a codex-ly basis, the universe and associated fiction is silly.

Why is it that unless good guys are getting mowed down by the millions and the bad guys are always in danger of winning, then the universe or fluff is silly and/or written poorly?

I'd say the WH40k universe is STUPIDLY dark and grim. Thousands of psykers are sacrificed DAILY so that the Emperor can live. Tyranid Hive Fleets devour whole systems, Chaos demons appear and have adults eating babies and slaughtering each other. The Necrons looming in the darkness, waiting for whatever sign to begin whatever genocidal campaign.

I'd say some light and good 'ol human fist-pumping is exactly what is needed.

I agree with this sentiment completely and wish that agreement known. Alas, I'm one of the few who thinks along these lines; going by the attitudes of some fans I've encountered, 40K's only redeeming characteristic is how no human ever wins at anything ever, deriving an almost sadistic pleasure from how hard the Imperium is failing and decrying as effete and faboyish any sign that any one billion people died slightly less nightmarishly than the previous billion. I simply have no patience for it.

But there is a difference between "He boldly stood his ground against the orkish onslaught that threatened to overrun his position" and "OMG HE TOTTALLY KILLED THREE AVATARS AND THEN CARVED HIS NAME INTO A PRIMARCH AND THEN WENT BACK IN TIME AND DONKEYPUNCHED HORUS WHILE IN THE GUISE OF A SIMPLE GUARDSMAN SO THE EPEROR COULD WIN AND THEY ERECTED A STATUE IN HIS NAME AND THE BLACK BELL TOLLS FOR HIM AND ALL THE OTHER SPACE MARINES LOVE HIM AND WANT TO BE HIM!!one!"

Here's an idea, how about heros who rescued people rather than just killed them by the bushel barrel? How about the marine that dragged out three of his brothers with an unexploded bolter casing next to his heart? (Heart no. 2) How about the Firewarrior who single handedly killed a Gene Stealer in CC (Actually, that's about the same as a SM worfing an Avatar, neh?) How about the guardsman who saved his unit by evacuating the flaming section of the ship that he was in who then managed to survive that? What about the commisar who killed a berserker to save a Marine? Or the one Boy who survived his trukk exploding, refused to get more "cuz e jus couldn't be bovvered" and carved open a pair of Marines?

There's a lot more to being a bad ass than just killing EVERYTHING. GW could find cooler fluff by visiting the list of CMH or VC (Congressional Medal of Honor and Victoria Cross)recipients and replacing Germans and French with Orcs and Tyranids. Some of those guys have done way cooler stuff than Draigo could, and it would be more believable and less prone to the Worfing syndrome we're seeing.

Joey wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Part of me blames the video games (even though I think the games are really good). Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner, I would take them more seriously.

Orks are fething slowed. The way they speak is the most annoying thing in the 40k canon, even more annoying when fans emulate it.
They definately should have taken a leaf out of Blizard's book and made the orks a proud, ancient warrior-people. Would make them a lot more threatening too, than just mindless savages.

Well, if they wanted an utterly boring race of Orks, yeah.

CuddlySquig wrote:

IronSnake wrote:Orks especially take away the foreboding and grim'ness of 40K with their speech and silliness. If they spoke less and didn't use broken english in a funny manner,

Oi! Orks isn't silly ya zoggin' git! See how funny you's fink we is when you's gots your 'ead on top'uv da boss's pole!

Ok ok...

Orks are a lot more threatening in the books, so I find. They don't usually speak english in BL publications and they tend to be more nasty. There's a scene in Gunheads that mentions orks torturing human children to get their parents to do work for them.

Yep. Right before the whole slave operation is wiped off Golgotha from an Imperial ship

I personally like the Orks. Their non-grimdarkness and "broken" speech are my favorite parts of the Orks

I think the reason the universe seems much less dark,
is that each codex has so much more background in it,
and a lot of the codexes are about "good" races so people see a lot more stuff about the "good" races kicking tail and taking heads.

forruner_mercy wrote:
Yep. Right before the whole slave operation is wiped off Golgotha from an Imperial ship

I personally like the Orks. Their non-grimdarkness and "broken" speech are my favorite parts of the Orks

What? I too like the Orks but there only non-grimdark from a Out-universe perspective, in-universe they are grimdark.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, I think a setting like 40K is supposed to have some hope and victory for the "good guys" (humanity). It can still be a scary and forbidding and grim universe even if it's more or less a stalemate (like the old fluff used to suggest). I mean, even if the threat of the various Xenos is no longer at "Weregonnadie"it isn't like the Imperium becomes a fun place of flowers and happiness and freedom.

Freedom doesn't exist in 40k, one will always be a slave to something.

is that each codex has so much more background in it,
and a lot of the codexes are about "good" races so people see a lot more stuff about the "good" races kicking tail and taking heads.

To me its the fiction not the codexes unless you mean the NewCron codex which is .

Nagashek wrote:
Here's an idea, how about heros who rescued people rather than just killed them by the bushel barrel? How about the marine that dragged out three of his brothers with an unexploded bolter casing next to his heart? (Heart no. 2) How about the Firewarrior who single handedly killed a Gene Stealer in CC (Actually, that's about the same as a SM worfing an Avatar, neh?) How about the guardsman who saved his unit by evacuating the flaming section of the ship that he was in who then managed to survive that? What about the commisar who killed a berserker to save a Marine? Or the one Boy who survived his trukk exploding, refused to get more "cuz e jus couldn't be bovvered" and carved open a pair of Marines?

There's a lot more to being a bad ass than just killing EVERYTHING. GW could find cooler fluff by visiting the list of CMH or VC (Congressional Medal of Honor and Victoria Cross)recipients and replacing Germans and French with Orcs and Tyranids. Some of those guys have done way cooler stuff than Draigo could, and it would be more believable and less prone to the Worfing syndrome we're seeing.

This is exactly why as far as the vanilla marine chapters go the Salamanders are my favorite, along with just being awesome in the description and colours, they are also the only chapter in the 2nd war of Armageddon that defended the people there, not just go hunting Orks.

I think one of the main issues with the current fluff is the sense of comic book style “oneupmanship” that seems to be rampant in the current 5E setting.

In older editions, the grimdark setting was more heavily emphasised with “futility” being the underlying tone in the sense that no matter how victorious a certain faction was, their actions are ultimately futile given the galactic war rampant nature of the times.

In the current 5E setting, grimdark is more of a background theme used to better emphasise heroic characters and victories. Whilst this is not to say these did not occur in previous editions, the “heroic” factor is more heavily prominent as the the general pattern for 5E fluff seems to be “lone badass/squad” saving the day, often via defeating an entire army or very tough opponent. What makes matters worse is that each codex seems to have a fluff entry that is bigger and better than the previous codex:
• Vanilla SM Codex had Marnus Calgar hold is own against an entire army
• BA Codex had the Sanguinor defeat an entire army and a special character bloodthirster.
• GK Codex had Draigo defeated Mortarion and numerous entities and places within the warp (including a Bloodthirster with his bare hands).

Coteaz, Crimson Fists. Read his blurb in whatever codex he's in. You want a hero that get's owned every mission he's in and STILL kicks everyone's ass? That's your guy.

As for Calgar? Read the newest Ultramarines novel, he's not invincible.
Didn't read the BA codex, have no clue. Mephiston conquered the Red Thirst...a psychically genetic defect in every Blood Angel since...forever. He's earned his badass tag.
Grey Knights...well, we don't need to talk about Draigo but the novels have Alaric end up being a pretty tortured good guy.


The oneupmanship? That makes total sense, honestly. I've seen the same thing. (not sarcasm)

If you think the good guys are winning, take another look. The setting is very grim.

Psykers sacrificed by the milllions each day to a dead guy on a throne. There are mutants born each second to unsuspecting parents, daemons rip out of the warp through a renegade psycher's head and devour families. There is rampant insanity in guardsmen who server for a few years. Plague, lust, magic, and rage all have gods appointed to them and worshipers in each basement.

Sure the marines may kill an entire ork horde, but thats only the battle. The war isn't over at all. Here is how that ends. (The orks all die, but their spores are released. The marines leave after doing their job, then years later the ork spores have finally grown and rampaging feral orks burst out of the forests and cut down villages and cities.)

Chaos is a contsant threat, and with legions like the Alpha Legion and Night Lords, you never know who is a true loyalist. Things can get so bad that the imperium HAS to kill an entire planet sometimes. Daemonhunters fight an un-winable war against daemons.

And no matter how much ass Marnius Calgar can kick, my Kharn the Betrayer will be there to take his 20th Calgar skull.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......

he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)

These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.

Marneus Calgar - One individual. An ENTIRE ARMY. For 24 HOURS. Come on, do the math.

Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.

Mephiston - I could fill a page ranting on this guy, but I'll simply confine my comments to: Lord of Death? I think the Emperor, Eldrad, Mortarion, Trazyn the Infinite and quite a few others would have something to say about that.

Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself

"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"

I miss the Necrons.
Before, they were terribly mysterious and scary; soulless self repairing machines that were really, really hard to kill and just killed everything in their path. Now, they are the friends of the space marines, have personality (double face-palm) and seem.... weak.

Grey knights before were terribly mysterious and powerful, now they are apparently marines, superior only in war gear.

The new Dark Eldar and Space Wolves is great, though.

Overall i prefer 40K as a universe where there is absolutely no peace; war is everywhere, the galaxy is one great battlefield and the imperium is highly unlikely to win; imagine a giant free-for-all ruin city fight where you can only see war at the horizon, and in the sky.

The new codices make the galaxy seem stable.

IMHO, it is NOT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.

Indeed, and a "TENDRIL" means thousands (if not millions) of hive ships.

And each is big as.... a city?

Ulthanashville wrote:
These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.

Marneus Calgar - One individual. An ENTIRE ARMY. For 24 HOURS. Come on, do the math.

Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.

Mephiston - I could fill a page ranting on this guy, but I'll simply confine my comments to: Lord of Death? I think the Emperor, Eldrad, Mortarion, Trazyn the Infinite and quite a few others would have something to say about that.

Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself

"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"

Exactly. I think recently 'heroic deeds' of the special characters have lost all sense of proportion; it is just ludicrous.
I loved to read the background sections of the codices, I even bought codices of armies I did not play just to do that; no way I'd do that these days.

Seaward wrote:

CuddlySquig wrote:

Seaward wrote:
I, much more rationally, blame the proliferation of Black Library novels which, while certainly good at least in some cases, pretty much require upbeat endings

Which BL books have you read? Clearly you've never read 15 Hours.

I haven't, no.

Everything by ADB, most everything by Abnett, a fair amount of McNeill's, and of course some Sandy Mitchell.

I honestly try to avoid everything else.

If you've read Double Eagle, you'll realise that Abnett's books are depressingly great and greatly depressing.

Why i am thankfull i play ig. Still grimdark.

Ulthanashville wrote:
Maugan Ra - An entire TENDRIL?! We're talking hive ships and bio-titans there.

It would of been far more believable if it said that Maugan Ra was the only survivor on that planet, implying he had an army with him, they just all died.

If you want a Grim Dark novel try Imperial Glory - it certianly is that as well as a good read and the Orks are really not funny in it.....

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Imperial-Glory.html

Very good - although I also love my Cain novels - which although having retaining some elements of darkness offer some hope.....