The Grim Darkness...not so grim or dark anymore?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**SomeRandomEvilGuy**

mishka_shaw wrote:
What I don't like was when I read my own codex and discovered that DE just kinda strolled in, made some monsters, and destroyed a hive fleet while everyone else was fighting tooth and nail loosing almost entire craftworlds/fortress worlds in the process.

That was a splinter fleet or a small Hive Fleet though, not one of the larger ones like Behemoth, Leviathan or Kraken (I'm going to ignore the one that destroyed Malan'tai, because that was terrible background and doesn't really fit in with everything else we know in my opinion).

**ObliviousBlueCaboose**

mishka_shaw wrote:
Anyway the astronomican is dieing so soon warp travel for the imperium will be decimated, than the xeno's will have their day....or the emperor becomes a god.

Losing 1 in 10 ships isnt so bad. If you go by the original meaning of decimate. Somehow it got to mean wipe out a large portion of.

But yeah, warp travel will be gone. At least for the IOM. Of course it would never happen, with that 1+ rerollable plot armor

**Mr Morden**

-Loki- wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:
clively wrote:
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Well that's not entirely true, just mostly true, you do get the odd character that is dead in the lore, but available as a character in the game. (oddly the only one I can think of is Captain Tycho) I am sure there were others.

Lelith Hesperax was killed in a Nick Kyme novel, I think it was Firedrake, by a Salamander Chaplain.

That makes me sad. She is one of the best Female 40k models.

Also, Eldrad and Urian Jacobus are also dead playable characters.

Its not Lelith, IIRC that novel is set in the Horus Heresy when she had not yet been born

The Tome of Fire books, which Firedrake is part of, are set in the 'modern' 40k setting. So that was Lelith Hesperax.

Just started reading the Salamander novels and enjoying them

The Wych main character in Firedrake is actually named Helspereth which seems her only name - she is never called Lelith

Might be a typo and supposed to be Ms Hesperax but I don't think so

**Sir Pseudonymous**

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:In many a discussion with my friends, all of which Warhammer 40k fans who play tabletop and read 40k novels we have recently began to notice a certain pattern in the new codexes that GW has been releasing.

I am referring to the fact that, in many of the newer codexes, the lore just doesn't seem as dark and...I think hopeless is too strong a word, but its close. The older lore was that the Imperium was always on the verge of collapse and only barely holding on. While I haven't seen anything that directly says this isn't still the case other things have me thinking.

Marneus Calgar holds a gate against an entire Ork army for a day and a night. (Space Marine Codex)
Maugan Ra defeats an entire tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan by himself. (Tyranids Codex)
Mephiston kills Carnifexes and a Hive Tyrant with his bare hands(forgot where I read that) and his entry could be interpreted that he is 'unlocking more of the gene-seeds potential' therefore becoming a mini-primarch.
The emergence of many angel/ghost like warriors. In older lore, the forces of chaos had demons, allies from the warp. Now, Imperial forces seem to have been given an equivilant (The Sanguinor, Damned Legionaires, Ghost Knight)
The new Necrons lore(which I still like, despite the above) basically changes Necrons from evil, to more on the side of neutral effective making things alittle easier for the 'good' races.
The fact that in every book, it seems the Avatar of Khaine and Bloodthirsters are just there to get beat down by some space marine character to prove they are tough.
Last, but certainly not least, Lord Kaldor Draigo. This guy actually lives in the realm of chaos and hasn't been killed yet. Not only that, but he easily defeats any demons that come after him and......

he carved a name into Demon Primarch Mortarion. When I first read this, I had to do a double take because this type of thing was unheard of. Demon Primarchs previously took hundreds of grey knights to banish(Angron, first war for Armageddon)

There are more examples of this out there in various novels, but I won't go into that. In previous codexes, it just didn't seem like things where so...optimistic and there where still heroes, but not like this.

I also want to state that with the exception of Draigo, I don't actually mind the 41st millenium getting alittle brighter. I just wanted to know if I'm the only one who has noticed this change in WH40k lore.

Space Marines aren't the reason the setting isn't hopeless, the Imperium boasting the largest, strongest military forces in the galaxy, and facing off against foes that are either pathetic, fatally flawed, or just not all that interested in fighting the Imperium is what makes the setting not hopeless. Space Marines are just a ridiculous footnote in the Imperial forces, who primarily show up to strike fancy poses and take credit for the accomplishment of the other Imperial forces. Strictly speaking, Space Marines aren't even Imperial, being independent states who can do pretty much whatever they feel like, without much scrutiny.

Most of the heros are also just Ward spamming a ridiculous number of special characters in everything he does for whatever reason, along with his entire lack of reasoning ability or sense of scale, to say nothing of his almost purple prose.

**McNinja**

the fact that the Starchild theory is still going around, despite a severe lack of any GW recognition of the theory since 3rd Ed. says something about the game, and the people who play it.

People can only take so much grimdark before they start thinking "this is kind of depressing... I would rather enjoy my game than be depressed about how grimdark it all it." The fact that the universe is completely stagnant isn't helping anything.

Also, http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9153-Hating-Warhammer-40k-and-Space-Marine it's a bit much, but he has a point. The darkness of the fluff is perhaps the biggest deterrent against playing or getting into the game. I don't know anybody who wakes up and says "Oh, I'm gonna get all depressed today!" People don't like being depressed. And GW knows that. The only problem is they created a game universe with 20 years of depressing fluff. Things like Space Marines being OP and Draigo roflstomping Mortarion and Maugan Ra defeating an entire swarm single-handedly lend to the notion that perhaps grimdark only stays grimdark for so long before something changes.

Also, as many people have pointed out, the way the codices are written makes huge event meaningless. Tyranids kill half of the galaxy? Eh. Necron rise? Eh. Space Marines do something? HUGE VICTORY FOR THE IMPERIUM YAAAAAAAAY!

GW needs to stop handing out victories to the Space Marines, and the codex fluff writers needs to stop writing so matter-of-factly. Instead of saying "the Tyranid Hive Fleet Jumanji decimated the majority of the Segmentum Pacificus" they should say "the overwhleming might of the Hive Fleet Jumanji ravaged the Segmentum Pacificus, leaving it a dry, barren husk." This goes for every codex and race. I know you can only fit so much into a text box, but come on. There is so much you can say that will add fear and dread into whatever you're writing. The poster child of GW needs to lose sometimes too, although I think we can thank Matt Ward for keeping the Space Marines' plot armor thicker than ever.

**Hyd**

The darkness of the fluff is perhaps the biggest deterrent against playing or getting into the game. I don't know anybody who wakes up and says "Oh, I'm gonna get all depressed today!" People don't like being depressed. And GW knows that. The only problem is they created a game universe with 20 years of depressing fluff. Things like Space Marines being OP and Draigo roflstomping Mortarion and Maugan Ra defeating an entire swarm single-handedly lend to the notion that perhaps grimdark only stays grimdark for so long before something changes.

Depressed ? If people get "depressed" upon hearing of 40k fluff, then they're just looking for excuses to feel depressed. There is no shortage of settings that display your usual Good vs Evil struggle with the good guys having the upper hand (or living a prosperous, undisturbed life under the protection of the god Statu Quo) for no other reason than them being good and/or humans. 40k is actually very refreshing in that regard, in that Humanity does stand a chance to fall.
Their fight seems pointless ? No. They're in survival mode, hard-pressed from every corner of the galaxy, pitted against countless, relentless enemies, but that's exactly the point : in a credible way, Humanity's very existence is at stake. Survival is never pointless. Besides, what alternatives would there be ? Well, in fact, don't think too much about alternatives, the Imperial Creed and its legions of enforcers are here to ensure that— *BLAM*

Stories featuring anti-heroes are like black coffee. Bitter it is, but here lies the appeal. Grimdark is like a particularly strong variety.
And I'd rather not have them sneakily pour sugar in my coffee. I bought it expecting some bitter goodness, sugar would just feel misplaced and sickening.

Here I blame bad writing. I agree with you on the second point and some already mentioned it, if you just repeatedly pile up senseless carnages one upon the other, people's empathy is numbed and you fall into dead baby caricature territory ; if you feature each new codex overpowering with ease whatever comes in its way, all the cheese just cancels out and you fall again into cheesy caricature territory. The setting loses consistency and appeal, it ceases to be enjoyable for what it is intended to be.
I was shocked by the Necron retcon (Netcron ?) : I'm OK with them having more personality, but why did they have to get rid of the C'Tan ? Now they're little more than ancient tin Tau sans utopia from what I can see. Talk about softening the setting... Heck, they were a threat to the Tyranids ! That's a bit too big a U-turn for me. (I'll be glad to stand corrected if I'm wrong, I really want to see the Necrons as a galactic threat rather than mere notalgic conquerors.)

So that's that : to me, questionable writing and artistic choices are indeed chipping away at the setting's appeal. Faithfully expecting corrections in next edition...

Ulthanashville wrote:These used to be the sort of exploits you'd expect to read only in a 12-year-old's homebrew chapter fluff. I say that without any exaggeration. Now it's official fluff.

Draigo - How does he survive in the warp without a constant supply of Sisters blood to "anoint" his armour with? Couldn't help myself

"My kustom spess mehreens chapter is the "Knights of Awesomeness", and they pwn. Teh emprah got off his thorne just to celebrate their founding and FAPFAPFAP"

You, good sir, win the Internet.