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LunaHound wrote:Also, if the idea was a forum where we all sing songs and praise about GW's immaculate accomplishments without hearing any one speaking of the tarnishes....
then you should ask yourself, what are you really looking for to start with.

I never said I wanted that. I have no love for fanboys either. Can you point out the last time you saw a thread that DID any of those things though?

Cause in DD, I see:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/380165.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/411721.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/411523.page

They all looked suspect at a glance. Maybe I'm wrong because I didn't read through them, but why submerse yourself in something you're likely going to hate and be annoyed with (a recurring theme for me, if you couldn't tell).

I did not see any "We love GW" threads, though the 'models that irk you' one could be given a pass, as it's at least a discussion.

And I'm not saying just GW either. I've heard moaning about damn near every system/company out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And of the two of the above that are locked, one only got locked because it got derailed. The other one was just bad. Locking threads doesn't help though, because they just get recreated next week.

thats not what i meant daedalus.

For me praises and complaints are both alike, just the opposite side of spectrum like light and shadows.

Im not saying anyone is "fanboys" yet im saying dont deny the right or importance of complains either as if its something lesser or evil.
Because subforum for complaints will not really work, as the purpose of the complaint might not be about inciting negativity.

As some of the posters noticed, complaints shouldn't be viewed as haters right away.

If they are alike, why does one get banished as garbage while one basks in full glory?
Hence i said, perhaps thats what most likes, glory of GW.

omg this is like Luna and Celestia.....

I don't care if people praise or complain, what I care about is the content of a post.

If a thread is just "MATT WARD SUX" or "I LOVE TAU " it is probably pointless drivel yet the latter is often flagged as spam whereas the former is just fed until it becomes a towering inferno of hatred.

corpsesarefun wrote:I don't care if people praise or complain, what I care about is the content of a post.

If a thread is just "MATT WARD SUX" or "I LOVE TAU " it is probably pointless drivel yet the latter is often flagged as spam whereas the former is just fed until it becomes a towering inferno of hatred.

Exactly. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

daedalus wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:I don't care if people praise or complain, what I care about is the content of a post.

If a thread is just "MATT WARD SUX" or "I LOVE TAU " it is probably pointless drivel yet the latter is often flagged as spam whereas the former is just fed until it becomes a towering inferno of hatred.

Exactly. This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Then i would wonder, if the thread is labeled as such, why are people compelled to go in it?

Assuming we weren't mislead to clicking it... What is the attraction?

Its like "attention hot coal"
but im gonna hold it!

********* ITS SO HOT MAKE IT STOP, **** you burning hot coal!

Frankly, I don't know. I mean, me, personally? I do it because if I make the mistake of reading it, I feel compelled to try to 'fix' it. Yeah, I know, it's a character flaw. I'm trying to deal with it.

Your average 'contributor'? No clue. I guess cause it's cool to hate nowadays?

Ixion wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:So you propose, to carry on your metaphor, that since people continue to litter, we simply don't use garbage cans?

People still kill others despite murder being illegal, should we just leglise it since it obviously isn't working?

...straight from garbage to murder? Seriously?

The point I was making was that the presence of a receptacle does not guarantee its use, which is kind of what corpsesarefun seemed to be suggesting-- although I'm probably being uncharitable.

Spam cannot be completely wiped out, but if we can contain even a goodly amount of it in one place, then it's a victory, however minor, and it's less spam that afflicting the site as a whole.

I also see nothing wrong with having a forum for rants. If you don't like it, don't use it (should really be the motto of the internet that).

If you think it would help to have such a place on the forum, I can't object, but I have a hard time believing it will reduce the amount of white noise in other parts of the site-- the only thing that can meaningfully accomplish that is sanctions, as previously stated, that consumes mod time and effort; it's up to them whether that's more or less effort than it would take to drop the hammer harder on haters forumwide.

Does it matter what I use as a metaphor? Would you prefer it if I used something less simple and straightforward? Whilst its use isn't guaranteed, surely its better than having nothing at all, which was my point. Going back to garbage (since you seem to object to the use of murder as an example), would you prefer there to be no areas for it all? You seem to have managed to miss out your response to that point.

Also, why would it not reduce the amount of 'white noise'? Even just 1 person is a reduction, and from my experience of internet forums, rants sections and the likes seem to perform their jobs well. There is also the fact that whilst sanctioning people in rants forums consumes time and effort, it is far better to have one place to manage than having to go and deal with bits all over the site. It would take more effort to weedle out trolls hidden in other forums than it would be in a veritable hive of them.

daedalus wrote:Frankly, I don't know. I mean, me, personally? I do it because if I make the mistake of reading it, I feel compelled to try to 'fix' it. Yeah, I know, it's a character flaw. I'm trying to deal with it.

Your average 'contributor'? No clue. I guess cause it's cool to hate nowadays?

When you said mistake of reading it, you meant accidentally entering the thread?
or mistake of participating willingly.

Depends. I mean, take the 40k Codex Writers thread. The cynic in me says it's probably no good, but the optimist in me wants to read it, because it could be some interesting breakdown or trend of 'dexes that I might find enlightening, after all, it doesn't actually say "MAT WARD SUX" on it. I'm usually disappointed.

On the other hand, I see one so flagrantly a 'hater thread' that I try my best to ignore it and move on, but it's kind of hard to not pop in there and try to suggest some reason against the blind hate. It gets so outrageous sometimes that I worry it actually contaminates new players. I mean, I bet you can find people out there who actually think that the necron/blood angel fistbump actually happened. I've actually talked to players who genuinely thought the warding stave gives a constant 2++. There's people who look at these threads and form preconceptions about the game that just aren't true.

I hate to make an argument from a "censorship for your own good" point of view, and as such, I don't want to see threads get outright shut down. I just want them put somewhere where you know what you're getting into when you get into it.

Avatar 720 wrote:Also, why would it not reduce the amount of 'white noise'? Even just 1 person is a reduction, and from my experience of internet forums, rants sections and the likes seem to perform their jobs well. There is also the fact that whilst sanctioning people in rants forums consumes time and effort, it is far better to have one place to manage than having to go and deal with bits all over the site. It would take more effort to weedle out trolls hidden in other forums than it would be in a veritable hive of them.

If eliminating only one hater is worth making a subforum just for haters, then it's a net gain. A very small one, but it is a gain.

That's really all I'm saying; this being the Internet, I don't trust enough people to use it to fully justify its existence, but it's equally possible I'm setting the bar too high for a solution like this.

As for the metaphor, while it actually was fitting, I just don't feel like people griping on an Internet message board deserves a comparison to such a serious matter. Call it a peeve of mine more than anything.

The problem that I see for a ranting subforum is the fact that this dislike for GW may no longer be seen as mainstream to GW customers who are only just becoming internet savvy. These complaints about GW's marketing practices, budget cuts, treatment of customers etc. might possibly lose their gravity if they are only in a specialised subforum, and might even become to be seen as trolling. The News and Rumours subforum in particular is one of the biggest targets for this internet hate as it tells us about GW's latest decisions at or (almost always) negative consequence, and people who are new to the internet need to know that GW really isn't as nice as most other companies. The GW company itself who some people have said probably prowl these forums also need to know what its customers think of it so it can possibly change. They will use the excuse to themselves that these complaints are just internet trolling because they are only found in their own dedicated forum (you just know they will).

I know that Dakka isn't the only forum for this and these complaints can be seen everywhere else too, but if this idea becomes a trend amongst the online community the the above spectulation could possibly become fact.

Deathly Angel wrote:The problem tha I see for a ranting subforum is the fact that this dislike for GW may no longer be seen as mainstream to GW customers who are only just becoming internet savvy. These complaints about GW's marketing practices, budget cuts, treatment of customers etc. might possibly lose their gravity if they are only in a specialised subforum, and might even become to be seen as trolling. The News and Rumours subforum in particular is one of the biggest targets for this internet hate as it tells us about GW's latest decisions at or (almost always) negative consequence, and people who are new to the internet need to know that GW really isn't as nice as most other companies.

This^

This is why earlier i talked about

Also, if the idea was a forum where we all sing songs and praise about GW's immaculate accomplishments without hearing any one speaking of the tarnishes....
then you should ask yourself, what are you really looking for to start with.

Why would GW improve themselves, when all the fans would sweep all their mistakes ( and bullying )
under the rug for them?

LunaHound wrote:Why would GW improve themselves, when all the fans would sweep all their mistakes ( and bullying )
under the rug for them?

GW is not going to change because people said bad (or good) things about them on the Internet, or any other medium. I don't even see how that's a factor.

Ixion wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Why would GW improve themselves, when all the fans would sweep all their mistakes ( and bullying )
under the rug for them?

GW is not going to change because people said bad (or good) things about them on the Internet, or any other medium. I don't even see how that's a factor.

No amount of people will change their mind?

Well thats also a bad thing for GW if that is true : )
anyways i have said my 2 cent, so i wont dwell here.

have a good day boys :3

LunaHound wrote:No amount of people will change their mind?

Well thats also a bad thing for GW if that is true : )
anyways i have said my 2 cent, so i wont dwell here.

have a good day boys :3

Even signed petitions and boycotts have a hard time getting companies to change their ways. I just don't see how the often unreasonable hate-mongering of indignant fans on an online forum will convince them, so it's hard for me to value it.

That in turn opens the whole question of why they even buy 40K products at all let alone complain about them online if they hate the company that produces them so much, but that's an argument I don't think I could hold up by myself.

Ixion wrote:That in turn opens the whole question of why they even buy 40K products at all let alone complain about them online if they hate the company that produces them so much, but that's an argument I don't think I could hold up by myself.

Is that even a serious question?

If i like a product, does that mean i automatically like everything they do?

Thats the problem with fans and haters alike, they lump the issues together as one.

LunaHound wrote:Is that even a serious question?

If i like a product, does that mean i automatically like everything they do?

Thats the problem with fans and haters alike, they lump the issues together as one.

I wasn't being entirely serious. I was trying to illustrate the way in which people seem to spend as much time griping about something they like as praising it, but I could probably have phrased it more eloquently.

Signed peitition to give to GW is different then informing the mass.

If the informed individuals realize the problem and issues, it will effect their purchases, the drop in sales will speak louder than any petition.



Now I have a feeling that everyone will see my posts in this thread as im advocating hate.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmm................

Ixion wrote:I'm still a new face here, so maybe I don't have the right to talk about how things are done here, but for what it's worth I can't see much value in making a separate subforum just for GW hate-- it does nothing to prevent people from hating in other threads. A dedicated subforum doesn't prevent GW/Matt Ward/whatever bile in threads only tangentially related to those things, and locking those threads for that reason would just disrupt actual discussion.

I think a viable solution would be to crack down on noncontributing hate-spewing as an actionable offense using warnings or temp bans. It's the difference between bolting on an auxiliary septic tank and actually cleaning the toilet.

Welcome sir. You are wise.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Welcome sir. You are wise.

I'm honored; thank you.

Ixion wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:If all the raging folk went to the complaints forum then the mods would have an easier time cleaning up those that go too far or intentionally flame/troll.

That's a pretty big "if", which is at the root of the problem. The mere existence of garbage cans, however convenient, does not stop people from littering. Likewise, simply having the subforum offers no promise that all of the haters and trolls will politely isolate their ravings to it and not just keep dumping them in other threads across the board like before.

Also consider what it means to have a subforum on your site that is quite literally nothing but hate and flames.

This makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

Putting in another garbage can with a big sign saying "put litter here" isn't going to stop posters from littering/posting the gak in the same forums that they always have done. Thes best way to handle posters that continually drop their litter is to impose on the spot fines instead(warnings and/or bans)

Hey did you ever take a look at the customers opinion on finecast? It's garbage! Metal is great, plastic is great. See, I made two positive comments right there. and poking at Matt Ward is trollage, it's the chuck norris jokes for 40k. Shouldn't take it so seriously.

Yes, rather than people ranting all over the forum, we can just have it in one place. +1.

Ixion has changed my mind on this matter, actually. He makes a persuasive point as to why the ghettoisation of rage threads won't really achieve anything in the long run. Really, if we feel a thread is pointless spam or founded in ignorance and trolling we already have a tool to use against it, being the mod alert button.

n0t_u wrote:I'm not sure a section dedicated to blind rage would work out all to well

Sounds like fun to me