Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sorry but that assessment is just ridiculous. Are you talking about the Dark Eldar? Otherwise, you crazy/you have read an extremely limited amount of Craftworld Eldar fluff.

No, they are nowhere near as unarguably a force of evil as they were before. They were always Lawful Evil, representing the ultimate expression of order (Working towards a stagnant, soulless galaxy where freedom of will can't exist), and are in fact more chaotic now. They're more Neutral Evil than anything, really, most Lords give very little gak about the old terms of warfare and honor, and seek to achieve their own goals, with only the Praetorians around to maintain anything resembling order, when they are around.

But yeah, no, the Necrons used to be one of the three top "super evil" forces in the galaxy, being a relentless force that, were they to succeed, would equal the end of all things. Now they are more on the level of the Imperium, if slightly worse.

Void__Dragon wrote:No, they are nowhere near as unarguably a force of evil as they were before. They were always Lawful Evil, representing the ultimate expression of order (Working towards a stagnant, soulless galaxy where freedom of will can't exist), and are in fact more chaotic now. They're more Neutral Evil than anything, really, most Lords give very little gak about the old terms of warfare and honor, and seek to achieve their own goals, with only the Praetorians around to maintain anything resembling order, when they are around.

But yeah, no, the Necrons used to be one of the three top "super evil" forces in the galaxy, being a relentless force that, were they to succeed, would equal the end of all things. Now they are more on the level of the Imperium, if slightly worse.

Neutral? Necron society still very much lacks freewill except at the highest levels. The vast majority still follows their leaders unquestioningly and the vast majority of those leaders/all of them still seek to subjugate everything. I believe they're still very much lawful, though obviously not to the extreme that they were before. Their society is still unimaginably rigid and hierarchical. Yes, I recognize that their civilization as whole isn't completely unified but still. They just woke up and some of them are a little cranky.


As for whether they're eviler than the Imperium? Well, that's more of a philosophical question. Do you feel evil when you step on some ants that invaded your house?

BrainDeleted wrote:I'm sorry but that assessment is just ridiculous. Are you talking about the Dark Eldar? Otherwise, you crazy/you have read an extremely limited amount of Craftworld Eldar fluff.

I was referring to Craftworld Eldar. What do the Newcrons do or represent exactly that's worse then Craftworld Eldar? They are shown to have a strong sense of honor even.

BrainDeleted wrote:Neutral? Necron society still very much lacks freewill except at the highest levels. The vast majority still follows their leaders unquestioningly and the vast majority of those leaders/all of them still seek to subjugate everything. I believe they're still very much lawful, though obviously not to the extreme that they were before. Their society is still unimaginably rigid and hierarchical. Yes, I recognize that their civilization as whole isn't completely unified but still. They just woke up and some of them are a little cranky.

But their Overlords care far more about their own interests than they do anything else, and they direct their troops to achieving said interests. Before the Necrons truly desired stamping out all organic life to create a stagnant, horrific galaxy for their C'tan masters, their willing servitude being characteristic of Lawful behavior.

But yeah, I guess I'll admit they are still "fairly" lawful, but frankly not much more than the Imperium, IMHO.

As for whether they're eviler than the Imperium? Well, that's more of a philosophical question. Do you feel evil when you step on some ants that invaded your house?

I'd retort by posing the question of are the Necrons truly that much inherently superior? Technologically, yes, they are certainly superior to the Imperium, but frankly they no longer are mentally far-removed from humans. They're humans who happen to be robot skeletons in terms of character, so claims of superiority come off more as being an arrogant dick, rather than containing any sort of legitimacy. They are prone to the same pettiness of humans, arguably even more. The ant-stepping debate held much more weight in the previous codex, where they were mentally and characteristically removed from humans.

The Necrons are still evil, the reason they want to kill the tyranids is because the Necrons want slaves, the tyranids kill the slaves necrons dont have any so Necrons kill the tyranids. In a way the Necrons are becoming the good guys as now the're saving the galaxy.
There is a difference between Bad and Evil.
You can be a good guy but still be evil and In the long run thats what the necrons have become...

In the Grim Darkness of the Far Future...there are no good and bad guys - only war for survival where no rule is exception or forbidden.

Harriticus wrote:I was referring to Craftworld Eldar. What do the Newcrons do or represent exactly that's worse then Craftworld Eldar? They are shown to have a strong sense of honor even.

Stop it with the honor thing. Honor does not make you a good guy. Besides, it says over and over again that most Necrons don't consider anyone but Necrons worthy of honorable battle. Anyway, let's get started.
1) Using humans/sentient beings as resources. (That is, their actual matter. So this kills them, making it different from slavery as a resource.)
2) Actively enslaving other races.
3) Collect other sentient beings wholesale for UFO stereotype 'probing'. (No hope of survival)
4) I don't feel like going on but I can.

Eldar...Yes, they're manipulative dicks and have an 'our ears are pointy your argument is invalid' attitude but they're much less malign than Necrons. Yeah, they've manipulated battles where millions die for their own gain. But Eldar are essentially in survival mode. Everything they do is justifiable by their need to keep on existing. They don't launch wanton campaigns into other systems just to kill everything/gain ground/dominate/torture/rape/eat everything. They fight when they must to survive. I believe I can remember several examples of Eldar helping other races? Not like they're altruists or anything at all. Not even close...But come on?

Void__Dragon wrote:But their Overlords care far more about their own interests than they do anything else, and they direct their troops to achieving said interests. Before the Necrons truly desired stamping out all organic life to create a stagnant, horrific galaxy for their C'tan masters, their willing servitude being characteristic of Lawful behavior.

But yeah, I guess I'll admit they are still "fairly" lawful, but frankly not much more than the Imperium, IMHO.

I'm not sure I'd say the Necrons were quite willing before. More like we-were-turned-into-robots-and-now-can't-think-so-want-is-irrelevant. Anyway, doing things for their own interests doesn't make them neutral. Internally, they remain as lawful as ever from a single dynasty perspective. But with the whole completely unified thing (C'Tan still opposed each other in the previous fluff?) gone they have definitely did take a hit in their "Force of Order" stance. But there's always the fact that they're seeking to unify the Galaxy, barring the corrupted/hacked ones.

Void__Dragon wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:As for whether they're eviler than the Imperium? Well, that's more of a philosophical question. Do you feel evil when you step on some ants that invaded your house?

I'd retort by posing the question of are the Necrons truly that much inherently superior? Technologically, yes, they are certainly superior to the Imperium, but frankly they no longer are mentally far-removed from humans. They're humans who happen to be robot skeletons in terms of character, so claims of superiority come off more as being an arrogant dick, rather than containing any sort of legitimacy. They are prone to the same pettiness of humans, arguably even more. The ant-stepping debate held much more weight in the previous codex, where they were mentally and characteristically removed from humans.

Actually, now they're more sentient. They weren't really before. They certainly consider themselves far superior. They're much older. Their technology still makes a mockery of most everyone besides Eldar to some extent. In the end, I do think they're pretty darned bad as far as guys go.

Imperium believes it is its destiny to rule the stars and kill all races other than their own.

Necrons believes it is its destiny to rule the stars and kill all races other than their own.

You decide.....

Steelmage99 wrote:Imperium believes it is its destiny to rule the stars and kill all races other than their own.

Necrons believes it is its destiny to rule the stars and kill all races other than their own.

You decide.....

It's not all about killing all other races.

Necrons just wanne be worshipped by all other races. (and kill who appose)

Deathly Angel wrote:

cha·os
noun
1. a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order.

Their motivation to 'destroy everything' does not make them chaotic. The old Necrons are the direct opposite to the actual definition of the word chaos. They would achive pure, absolute order by destroying all life in the galaxy, and lacked free will. They are the ultimate, uncaring embodiment of order. And that was what made them so awesome. They are not more ordered in their new incarnation, and that is why I just deny the existance of the new background.

Going by that definition, not even Chaos Space marines are "Chaos".

You would use the definition of [Obsolete An abyss; a chasm.] to explain them. And that definition isn't even correct anymore.

Plus taking just "chaos" out of context of the debate of alignment is only using half the story to make your point.

But on that note, I'll concede that they were probably not Chaotic Evil. Especially after reading this take on Lawful Evil which I feel more fits both versions of the necrons -

"A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.

Some lawful evil people and creatures commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master. "

BrainDeleted wrote:I'm not sure I'd say the Necrons were quite willing before. More like we-were-turned-into-robots-and-now-can't-think-so-want-is-irrelevant. Anyway, doing things for their own interests doesn't make them neutral. Internally, they remain as lawful as ever from a single dynasty perspective. But with the whole completely unified thing (C'Tan still opposed each other in the previous fluff?) gone they have definitely did take a hit in their "Force of Order" stance. But there's always the fact that they're seeking to unify the Galaxy, barring the corrupted/hacked ones.

The Necron Warriors? Sure, they weren't willing. The Lords, and other Necrons with sentience? They certainly were, and they certainly could think, the notion that the Necron Lords only now gained sentience is a lie. And naw, I disagree, Imotekh I'll grant you is more lawful evil (And is the only one who really speaks of the order of which you speak), but most Lords care a bit more about their own personal goals than any sort of structure or order that is not immediately favoring them (Hence why most Lords don't care for having Praetorians in their army).

Actually, now they're more sentient. They weren't really before. They certainly consider themselves far superior. They're much older. Their technology still makes a mockery of most everyone besides Eldar to some extent. In the end, I do think they're pretty darned bad as far as guys go.

Once more, the notion that the upper echelons of the Necron race were not sentient is a lie. Were they as dastardly and cartoonishly evil, did they twirl their mustaches while having witty banter with their foes? No, but that doesn't make them non-sentient.

Yes and I'm sure most members of the Third Reich (Yes Godwin's Law) considered themselves superior to many of the people they killed, but that doesn't actually make them right, or unable to be morally damned, does it? Sure, they're much older and have great technology, but once more, mentally they are no different than really spoiled human beings.

They're not that bad (By 40k standards). They're honestly not much worse than the Imperium, if at all. The Imperium kills aliens because they claim they are oh so much better than the xenos without even having the decency of being older or having better technology.

Some would argue that the perception of good and evil is dependent on your point of view.
The Necrons trying to destory all life down to the microbe level would be described by the living as Evil.
To the Necrons this policy is just good house cleaning.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Necron Warriors? Sure, they weren't willing. The Lords, and other Necrons with sentience? They certainly were, and they certainly could think, the notion that the Necron Lords only now gained sentience is a lie. And naw, I disagree, Imotekh I'll grant you is more lawful evil (And is the only one who really speaks of the order of which you speak), but most Lords care a bit more about their own personal goals than any sort of structure or order that is not immediately favoring them (Hence why most Lords don't care for having Praetorians in their army).

The misconception here is that doing things with only yourself in mind is not lawful. No, it is not 'good'. That's what evil is, for the most part. So you agree they're evil? Good. Lawful is adhering to a structure or a code. Necrons do, except for the crazy ones. Then they're lawful evil! Horray!

BrainDeleted wrote:The misconception here is that doing things with only yourself in mind is not lawful. No, it is not 'good'. That's what evil is, for the most part. So you agree they're evil? Good. Lawful is adhering to a structure or a code. Necrons do, except for the crazy ones. Then they're lawful evil! Horray!

The Lords only adhere to a structure or code when it is convenient for them, for the most part. So... No, those that do that are closer to neutral evil.

As for them being evil? They are about on par with the Imperium for the most part. So... Yes, they are basically evil. Some less so. Zandrekh, that traveling Necron Overlord, the Silent King, by the standards of the setting, they're not really that evil.

Can you agree that they are certainly not as much of a villainous faction as they were before?

Certainly. I'm just reading the C'tan part. Holy retcon Batman. Necron don't work for the C'tan anymore the Ctan work for the Necrons. This is also part of the deevilification of the Necrons too. There's no way they could still work for the C'tan and not be super-evil due to the super-evilness of the C'tan

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Certainly. I'm just reading the C'tan part. Holy retcon Batman. Necron don't work for the C'tan anymore the Ctan work for the Necrons. This is also part of the deevilification of the Necrons too. There's no way they could still work for the C'tan and not be super-evil due to the super-evilness of the C'tan

Not to mention that the Necrons as a faction were made inherently more sympathetic, the Silent King in particular humanises the Necrons considerably.

Your mileage may vary on whether this is a good thing or not.

Void__Dragon wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Certainly. I'm just reading the C'tan part. Holy retcon Batman. Necron don't work for the C'tan anymore the Ctan work for the Necrons. This is also part of the deevilification of the Necrons too. There's no way they could still work for the C'tan and not be super-evil due to the super-evilness of the C'tan

Not to mention that the Necrons as a faction were made inherently more sympathetic, the Silent King in particular humanises the Necrons considerably.

Your mileage may vary on whether this is a good thing or not.

I agree on both points. I miss the relentless killing-machine super-evil Necrons but I can see why they went down this route. Gamewise, it was hard to come up with reasons for Necrons (and Tyranid and Dark Eldar) to take part in a campaign. They don't care about capturing ground, just killing. They're more "normal" now. Most normal war is fought over the acquistion or territory and resources and the Necrons have been normalized in that way now.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I agree on both points. I miss the relentless killing-machine super-evil Necrons but I can see why they went down this route. Gamewise, it was hard to come up with reasons for Necrons (and Tyranid and Dark Eldar) to take part in a campaign. They don't care about capturing ground, just killing. They're more "normal" now. Most normal war is fought over the acquistion or territory and resources and the Necrons have been normalized in that way now.

I personally feel that the Necrons could of been made more accessible to other players without changing what was originally there to something completely different, honestly.

Void__Dragon wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I agree on both points. I miss the relentless killing-machine super-evil Necrons but I can see why they went down this route. Gamewise, it was hard to come up with reasons for Necrons (and Tyranid and Dark Eldar) to take part in a campaign. They don't care about capturing ground, just killing. They're more "normal" now. Most normal war is fought over the acquistion or territory and resources and the Necrons have been normalized in that way now.

I personally feel that the Necrons could of been made more accessible to other players without changing what was originally there to something completely different, honestly.

Well, in a way they've had their cake and ate it too. The super-evil Necron destroyers of life still exist...they're just not the majority now.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, in a way they've had their cake and ate it too. The super-evil Necron destroyers of life still exist...they're just not the majority now.

You're going to have to forgive me for not considering the old Necrons being barely a footnote in the new codex a fair trade.

And even then, nah, not really. The Necron Lords were never non-sentient, the codex did nothing new in that regard. But now they're no longer alien either. They're humans who happen to be robots.

Honestly debating the non-evilness of the Necrons is kinda silly. There are two factions that could be described as something other than evil, and even then it's a stetch. The Orks and the Eldar. Orks fight for the joy of fighting, not malice, not greed, they just really love fighting, still probably evil but a weak but defensible claim of Chaotic Neutral could be made. The Eldar are slightly closer, they really only want to get rid of Slaneesh, and until then keep their craftworlds and exodite worlds safe. Their methods are only slightly less abhorant than the imperium's. SLIGHTLY.

The Imperium is certainly evil, certain factions (especially marines) could be made to seem good, but at it's best the Imperium is at this point a necessary evil for the continued existance of humanity. Necrons are now a lot like the imperium only with more robots.

That is true I suppose. I also don't like the Swarmlord. It's a dumbing down of the Tyranid too: He's like a Tyrant but.....a super-smart one!
It's almost like a Hollywoodification of these Galactic threats. A big bad guy is needed to laugh manically and be defeated in the end.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That is true I suppose. I also don't like the Swarmlord. It's a dumbing down of the Tyranid too: He's like a Tyrant but.....a super-smart one!
It's almost like a Hollywoodification of these Galactic threats. A big bad guy is needed to laugh manically and be defeated in the end.

Oh yeah, definitely.

I get a serious dastardly cartoon villain vibe from guys like Trazyn in the new codex. Because Dark Eldar and Chaos shouldn't be the only guys to have those type of hammy cartoon villains amirite? There is now comic relief in the Necron army.

And yeah, the changes to Hive Tyrants in general kind of undermines the Hive Mind and the thematic nature of the Tyranids as a whole, the Swarmlord is merely the face and most triumphant example of such.

Harriticus wrote:They were previously part of super evil, even if they had their own version of "order" in mind. Eradicating all life and feeding it to sadistic Star Gods = super evil.

Now they're roughly the same as the Eldar, imo. You get aggressive and cruel Eldar but you also get aggressive/cruel Necrons. Imperium often fights Eldar but also allies with them, the same can now be true for the Newcrons. They have a strong sense of honor however, which is something the Eldar don't seem to value with aliens in the least. This makes them looking better then the Eldar right now, if anything. After the Tau and maybe the Imperium they're probably the "best" faction. I think a good example is the Eldar giving an entire Imperial world just 1 day to evacuate its entire population before attacking, whereas the Necrons gave them a month because "the honor of battle dictates".

Ward has remade the Necrons into something else entirely, at their worst they're a localized sector-level threat while at their best they're reliable allies with strong sense of honor and respect. Gone are the days of the silent menace bent on destroying organic life.

Necrons on the whole don't necessarily have a sense of honor, certainly not one that applies to 'lesser races'(hubris does seems to be the prevailing trait, however).

They're humans who happen to be robots.

They more or less always were. They were a sentient race before getting trapped in their metallic forms, not really a change there.

Brace yourselves, a wild Wall of Text appears!

Necrons were and are Lawful Evil, but not for the same reasons. (And they are certainly not less of a threat now)
The old codex had them as the classic robot villains that "protect us from ourselves, through killing us all". Has everyone forgot that the C'tan REALLY hated the Chaos Gods? So much, in fact, that they tried to seal away the warp from the materium completely? (they got stopped, for obvious sales reasons)

Sure, the Nightbringer thought that mortal souls tasted like freshly baked cinnabuns, but the real brains were always the Deciever and his tzeenchian schemes all had the same purpose; to destroy Chaos. Among other things he was the one who would point the NB in a direction that would further his goals.
Note how I have not even mentioned the necrons themselves in this paragraph, that is because there was nothing to be said about them in the old codex, they were just mindless drones. Even the lords, though retaining some personality, were in the end bereft of free will.

The only interesting aspect of the old necrons weren't even the necrons. Do you see the problem?

Lets talk about the threat, shall we? In the olden days there was certainly a threatening intent, but random tombworlds awakening and invoking a C'tan for a while is not a threat to the Imperium (or anyone really). Of course, they had potential to be threatening when enough tombworlds gathered together for a nice WAAAAGH!, or Soul-Train, or what-have-you. My point is: no-one actually worked to do this! No-one actively awakened the necrons, remember that?

Today, you ask? Well, I shall say this; the new canon actually gives a proper quantification of the Necrons' power at maximum. (in relation to the Chaos Gods, at max power) As Far as I know, this is the first time they have done this since saying that the Horus Heresy happened when Big E became a nuisance and the Chaos Gods batted a collective eye. (meaning that since the Imperium survived, Big E & Co. were almost as powerful as them)

The C'tan are now stated as having as much power in the real world as the C-Gods in the warp, and then our metal buddies shattered, imprisoned and enslaved them.
Then they(necrons) slept for millions of years and now they're just starting to emerge, only because of the tyranids. This is because the Silent King never slept, but stayed awake and vigilant looking for ways to revert his race and finalize the complete victory or the necrontyr. (I'll put the explanation to that in a spoiler since it derives too much from the subject)



Now, the Silent King and other major plot overlords go around resurrecting the millions and millions of dormant tombworls, every single one a threat to an Imperial fleet.
The overlords do follow their own agendas, but are somewhat agreed on that everything but necrontyr suck and is only good for experimenting on.

They are no longer a big threat to Chaos, because they simply don't care as much.
They are a bigger threat to the galaxy as a whole, because they want to rule it, and if they all awaken, no-one will be able to stop them.

Their purpose has changed and the option to keep them as they were have been a bit neglected.
(it could have read, "some tomb worlds still worship the C'tan, set free all the shards they find and try to put them back together, for some reason or other" )

The necrons are not a one-track train that only stops at random places to kill things anymore. But they have more flavour and appeal now.


TL;DR: They never were super evil, they still arn't. The old necrons could have been well kept in the new codex, sadly they weren't. New necrons are cool though, but are not the same race anymore. Complete reboot.

Good day to you, Sir or Madam.

The Necrons are more of a threat now but only because they started throwing around these huge numbers. They have more worlds than the Imperium somehow, though they are not unified.

To answer the title question, every faction is EVIL beyond any and all redemption. Trying to argue who is worse is comparing Hitler to Stalin, both of them are exemplary scions of evil. Murder and genocide are commited by every faction, with only justifications varying, and then only in what they tell themselves and their subordinates. The DE don't delude themselves into thinking they aren't monsters, the Imperium however deceives itself quite well in this regard.

It depends on who you ask, if you ask a human yes they are xeno scum. If you ask an eldar, yes they are the ones who killed the old ones. If you ask a Necron Warriors...... Nothing. Now ask an immortal and the answer is, no we are the Necrons resistance is futile...