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KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Necrons are more of a threat now but only because they started throwing around these huge numbers. They have more worlds than the Imperium somehow, though they are not unified.

Huh? They do? Really?

Anyway, you sure it isn't because of their new ambition? Their new found of tactical talents as opposed to 'march implacably till it dies'? I mean, it definitely helps that they're all starting to finally wke the hell up.....

Didn't the C'Tan and their respective Necrons oppose each other before anyway? NB mad at Deceiver, Deceiver just being a dick and stuff like that?

at mouth: i wonder how a convo with an immortal would go. hmmmmmm.
on topic: i say evil, they want to rule, not destroy all life(although it is an option)

asimo77 wrote:They more or less always were. They were a sentient race before getting trapped in their metallic forms, not really a change there.

Being sentient =/= Being human.

They weren't humanised or sympathetic before, not by any stretch of the imagination. Even the few times a Necron Lord would speak, they were decidedly alien and inhuman. Now there is no difference between the two races in terms of character. Imotekh is not much different than an Imperial commander.

The only thing that set the oldcrons aside from humans was that they weren't sentient except for the Lords who were...Somewhat sentient? It wasn't really delved into. They had no traits whatsoever, they were unthinking and only served. Except the Lords weren't completely unthinking though they still only served.

Now, most Necrons are still alien and inhuman in that they aren't sentient for the most part. The higher ups are more human though their natures really aren't that close to Imperium characters other than that they have independent thought.

BrainDeleted wrote:The only thing that set the oldcrons aside from humans was that they weren't sentient except for the Lords who were...Somewhat sentient? It wasn't really delved into. They had no traits whatsoever, they were unthinking and only served. Except the Lords weren't completely unthinking though they still only served.

Only we did get some characterization. Notably that they united their race and sold their souls, damning themselves forever, to satiate their longtime hatred of another race by committing genocide on another race. And Necrons have spoken in the fluff before this codex, the most exhaustive example of this being from Xenology, when a Necron Lord carries a conversation with an Inquisitor.

They were one of the few truly alien races in the setting.

Now, most Necrons are still alien and inhuman in that they aren't sentient for the most part. The higher ups are more human though their natures really aren't that close to Imperium characters other than that they have independent thought.

Imotekh wants to subjugate and destroy all other forms of life in the galaxy so that his own may rule and prosper.

What about that isn't exactly like the Imperium?

Zandrekh actually humanises the Necrontyr, since he still believes himself to be one. He's shown to be an honorable, capable leader and warrior, and even hosts banquets for worthy enemies.

Trazyn is kind of a nutbar but there's nothing alien about him either, he's the Necron's main mustache twirling character. Because when I thought of Necrons, I thought of "amusing" letters to Inquisitors with a healthy dosage of mustache twirling.

Szeras is robo-Fabius Bile. That's really all I have to say on that matter. He's arguably the most "evil" character in the codex, and, along with maybe Imotekh, he comes a little closer to the previous Necron Lords than the others in the codex.

Really, what is inhuman about them at all in the codex? Szeras is arguably the closest to fit the mold, but for the most part the thinking patterns and goals of the Necrons are easily graspable by human minds.

I'm losing sight of your point here. They still unified their race then sold their souls, didn't they? Genocide happy still though not to the exclusion of every other possible character trait? Ok, Lord's talked before (In Xenology) now it's a problem that they're talking a lot in their codex where people can actually read it?

The only thing abhuman or alien about them previously was their utter mindlessness and silence which is retained by most everyone but the Lords...Still? I don't really see anything else?

Anyway, I think Necron Lords are quite different from humans in several ways. You have to be fair, giving them any kind of speech or personality makes them hugely more human no matter what. If a tyranid starts saying just the words, "Hungry, eat." They'd be humanized significantly. I guess if you dislike humanization then I see why you dislike the newcrons. If you liked the space terminators thing.

BrainDeleted wrote:I'm losing sight of your point here. They still unified their race then sold their souls, didn't they? Genocide happy still though not to the exclusion of every other possible character trait? Ok, Lord's talked before (In Xenology) now it's a problem that they're talking a lot in their codex where people can actually read it?

Motive is everything.

The new Necron codex goes to great lengths to make the Necrons sympathetic, where previously they were not. Before it was unreasonable hatred. Now the codex portrays the Old Ones as elitists dicks who outright refused to share their secret for longevity with anyone, and the only reason the Silent King went to war was because the Necrontyr were in-fighting extensively. It was a team-building exercise.

Actually a Lord does speak briefly in the old Necron codex, but nah, that's not the point. The Necrons getting more attention than the C'tan in their codex is not a problem, it is one of the flaws of the original codex that the Necrons weren't emphasized enough. I just feel they went the wrong way with it in the new codex. Necrons don't just talk, now they're positively affable, if not jovial, some even incredibly hammy (Necron Lords barking orders and making grandiose gestures with their hands and warscythes on that Necron dais thing that's name I forget), which is a big shift backwards compared to the original idea that they were nigh-silent, and when they did talk, their voices were cold, methodical, logical, if disturbingly polite.

The only thing abhuman or alien about them previously was their utter mindlessness and silence which is retained by most everyone but the Lords...Still? I don't really see anything else?

In your opinion.

Sentience =/= humanity. Being sentient alone doesn't make you human, the Necrons didn't want to rule or gain territory to increase their power as humans did. Everything they did was motivated by a singular purpose, hatred of life.

That doesn't necessarily mean that every Lord must act on this hatred in the same way, and indeed they didn't, which, as I said before, was admittedly not emphasized enough in the Necron codex (The old one).

Anyway, I think Necron Lords are quite different from humans in several ways. You have to be fair, giving them any kind of speech or personality makes them hugely more human no matter what. If a tyranid starts saying just the words, "Hungry, eat." They'd be humanized significantly. I guess if you dislike humanization then I see why you dislike the newcrons. If you liked the space terminators thing.

I disagree with the notion that speech inherently equates to humanization. While, sure, it makes them more understandable to humans than not speaking at all, I don't really see any signigant differences between the newcrons and humans in terms of character, short of the occasional bug.

To have a race be sentient and simultaneously inhuman is expecting too much methinks. And the the old motivation for the Necrons wasn't really all that inhuman/unkowable, it was motivated out of jealousy, and the new codex keeps it that way to a degree.

They did used to hate all life but that really isn't so alien of a motive when you realize they lost their free will. They were pretty much robots programmed by the C'tan. And while I see the appeal of a robo-race in a sci-fi setting, considering the Necrons aren't actually robots, and are a sentient race that got trapped in metal, complete robotization would not be the right direction for them.

Well, that's another case of them wanting to eat their cake too. The rank and file necrons are mindless robots but the nobles are pretty much just Egyptians.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, that's another case of them wanting to eat their cake too. The rank and file necrons are mindless robots but the nobles are pretty much just Egyptians.

I don't think that's a bad thing. The codex leaves enough room for you to have whatever kind of Necron army you want. You could have a fringe group that still worships the C'tan or perhaps a powerful shard got released and enslaved them. Or you could play a group of mindless Necrons who had their engrams and whatnot wiped by the Tombworld. Or you could play a Necron dynasty rife with political intrigue. Or really any combination of the above. Any codex that offers flexibility while maintaining a coherent theme is a sucess in my book.

asimo77 wrote:To have a race be sentient and simultaneously inhuman is expecting too much methinks.

Nope.

You could argue that maybe I expect too much from GW, but that says more about GW than it does about me.

And the the old motivation for the Necrons wasn't really all that inhuman/unkowable, it was motivated out of jealousy, and the new codex keeps it that way to a degree.

Unknowable=/=Understandable.

The Necrons turned envy of the Old Ones into a relentless hatred for life and a desire to see it suffer and end. Singular of purpose=/=mindless.

They did used to hate all life but that really isn't so alien of a motive when you realize they lost their free will.

Not true of every Necron, particularly the Lords, and the Immortals to a lesser extent.

They were pretty much robots programmed by the C'tan.

The Lords served willingly.

And while I see the appeal of a robo-race in a sci-fi setting, considering the Necrons aren't actually robots, and are a sentient race that got trapped in metal, complete robotization would not be the right direction for them.

Try not to strawman my position. I never said they should suffer "complete robotization".

asimo77 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Well, that's another case of them wanting to eat their cake too. The rank and file necrons are mindless robots but the nobles are pretty much just Egyptians.

I don't think that's a bad thing. The codex leaves enough room for you to have whatever kind of Necron army you want. You could have a fringe group that still worships the C'tan or perhaps a powerful shard got released and enslaved them. Or you could play a group of mindless Necrons who had their engrams and whatnot wiped by the Tombworld. Or you could play a Necron dynasty rife with political intrigue. Or really any combination of the above. Any codex that offers flexibility while maintaining a coherent theme is a sucess in my book.

That's true.
Overall though, that freedom of choice shows the super-evil has been taken out of them.

The various factions can be broken down into to archetypes.

Order
Imperium: Rigidly structured and seeks to make the galaxy safe for Humanity and its offshoots.
Eldar: Keep Chaos from gaining too large of a foothold in the Material realm.
Tau: Unite the galaxy under an overarching purpose.
Necrons: Create a universe of pure order and logic by eliminating the idiocies of the flesh.

Destruction
Orks: Breaking stuff.
Dark Eldar: Staying alive and their own pleasure.
Chaos: Obliterate the very structure of the universe.
Tyranids: Omnomnom

So Necrons aren't really 'Good' but their less destructive overall; all their actions have the purpose of creating a perfectly logical galaxy.

Ok lets face it, the most evil guys in the galaxy are probably Dark Eldar. Pure chaos are pretty bad too but most chaos are actually more seccessionist than evil. The Imperium of Man is probably just as evil as pure chaos (millions of sacrifices every day, demanding absolute obedience and belief in a god, destruction of anyone who doesn't share your beliefs, no freedom for your people) am I talking about chaos or IoM there? Hard to say isn't it. Nids are not evil, they are just predators looking for food. They are very DANGEROUS but not evil.

IronSnake wrote:The Emperor and his Primarchs had nothing but good intentions by reclaiming the galaxy from ravenous xenos scum.

To quote an old proverb, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Nope.

You could argue that maybe I expect too much from GW, but that says more about GW than it does about me.

I personally can't think of anything, perhaps you have some examples?

Unknowable=/=Understandable.

I'm pretty sure they are equivalent, what would be an example of being unknown and understood at the same time, or known yet not understood?

The Necrons turned envy of the Old Ones into a relentless hatred for life and a desire to see it suffer and end. Singular of purpose=/=mindless.

I never said they were mindless though IIRC they were essentially automatons except for the higher ups. Perhaps they weren't written well but they were always portrayed as rather simplistic beings.

Not true of every Necron, particularly the Lords, and the Immortals to a lesser extent.

And that fact is pretty much hasn't changed in the new codex, I don't see an issue there.

The Lords served willingly.

If serving the C'tan was the only hook the Necrons had in you then I guess you would be SOL, though I seem to recall a few instances where the Necrons were simply referred to as slaves, I don't think it was ever really clear what the relationship between the Lords and C'tan was.

Try not to strawman my position. I never said they should suffer "complete robotization".

Relax man, you're being too defensive. I never saw this thread as some sort of highly structured debate. I'm just saying what I think, not necessarily counter everyone else points.

Are Necrons still the bad guys?

No.

Are Necrons still bad guys?

Yes.

Big difference.

Bottom line: Old Flavor bleached away, almost entirely. Everything you knew about they no longer applies. They are just another evil empire now, like all the empire in 40k. More open to intrigue, but they lost their unique flavor.

When your kindest and gentlest faction is a bunch of brainwashing, sterilizing, conquest obsessed empire, that's saying something.

There are no good guys in 40k, and I wouldn't want one.

Void__Dragon wrote:

asimo77 wrote:To have a race be sentient and simultaneously inhuman is expecting too much methinks.

Nope.

You could argue that maybe I expect too much from GW, but that says more about GW than it does about me.

Define what inhuman means. If it's not human, like an animal, then being sentient and inhuman walk hand in hand.

And the the old motivation for the Necrons wasn't really all that inhuman/unkowable, it was motivated out of jealousy, and the new codex keeps it that way to a degree.

Unknowable=/=Understandable.

Means the same thing really.

The Necrons turned envy of the Old Ones into a relentless hatred for life and a desire to see it suffer and end. Singular of purpose=/=mindless.

They're still like that, mostly. Now they just want to rule life instead of destroy it, but they still loath everything. They were far too similar to the Tyranids before. At least now they have a unique motive on the whole.

They did used to hate all life but that really isn't so alien of a motive when you realize they lost their free will.

Not true of every Necron, particularly the Lords, and the Immortals to a lesser extent.

True, but those Lords and to a lesser extent Immortals still didn't have free will.

They were pretty much robots programmed by the C'tan.

The Lords served willingly.

Maybe they initially threw their lot in with the C'tan willingly, but in the old codex they were still robot servants with no free-will.

And while I see the appeal of a robo-race in a sci-fi setting, considering the Necrons aren't actually robots, and are a sentient race that got trapped in metal, complete robotization would not be the right direction for them.

Try not to strawman my position. I never said they should suffer "complete robotization".

But you would like them to have remained pretty much how they were: slaves with no free will, who did their master's bidding without question and to its exact specifications. Like a robot. The only difference between a Warrior and a Lord was that the Lord could think about how to solve a problem, but was still bound to orders.


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Armless Failure wrote:Bottom line: Old Flavor bleached away, almost entirely. Everything you knew about they no longer applies. They are just another evil empire now, like all the empire in 40k. More open to intrigue, but they lost their unique flavor.

To the contrary, I think they've actually gained a lot of character with this new book. What were they before? A vast army of robotic servants who served the C'tan without question. this whole conception that they hated all life is wrong. It may have applied before the Necrons were imprisoned in their new bodies, but afterwards, no, not at all. They had no motive, they served the C'tan without question because they could not think, they had no free will. Even the Lords were bound to this, their only difference was that they were able to think around a problem individually. If a C'tan told a Lord to go pick a lovely bunch of flowers and dance around a Hive-city spreading them on the mutants that dwell in the Hive's depths, the Lord would obey without a second thought. The C'tan took center-stage as in the Necrons. Now, at least they have a motive of their own.

Armless Failure wrote:Honestly debating the non-evilness of the Necrons is kinda silly. There are two factions that could be described as something other than evil, and even then it's a stetch. The Orks and the Eldar. Orks fight for the joy of fighting, not malice, not greed, they just really love fighting, still probably evil but a weak but defensible claim of Chaotic Neutral could be made. The Eldar are slightly closer, they really only want to get rid of Slaneesh, and until then keep their craftworlds and exodite worlds safe. Their methods are only slightly less abhorant than the imperium's. SLIGHTLY.

The Imperium is certainly evil, certain factions (especially marines) could be made to seem good, but at it's best the Imperium is at this point a necessary evil for the continued existance of humanity. Necrons are now a lot like the imperium only with more robots.

Agreed on all accounts, well said.

asimo77 wrote:I personally can't think of anything, perhaps you have some examples?

I am admittedly not sure what you are asking me to do here.

I'm pretty sure they are equivalent, what would be an example of being unknown and understood at the same time, or known yet not understood?

That was actually a typo, of a sort. Actually, it's more that I phrased that completely wrong. We knew, of course, what drove them to do what they did. But that does not equal understanding. For instance, I know that some prefer the Necrons being straight Egyptian Cartoon Villains in Space, but I can't begin to understand why they do.

I never said they were mindless though IIRC they were essentially automatons except for the higher ups. Perhaps they weren't written well but they were always portrayed as rather simplistic beings.

A problem, yes, but not one that justified a retcon of what came before.

And that fact is pretty much hasn't changed in the new codex, I don't see an issue there.

You're not seeing my point, which is that that could of been expanded on without a huge retcon and a complete change in thematic direction.

If serving the C'tan was the only hook the Necrons had in you then I guess you would be SOL, though I seem to recall a few instances where the Necrons were simply referred to as slaves, I don't think it was ever really clear what the relationship between the Lords and C'tan was.

Lords, on the occasions they did speak, revealed they served willingly, and even seemed to revere their C'tan masters. You know, like one would a god.

No, the "serving the C'tan" thing isn't the only thing lost, the entire thematic direction and feel of the army is changed, and frankly I can't even take them seriously anymore, some of the characters at least. Trazyn the Infinite being one.

Relax man, you're being too defensive. I never saw this thread as some sort of highly structured debate. I'm just saying what I think, not necessarily counter everyone else points.

Well, you said that in response to my post, so that was the way I took it.

And don't be mislead by the way my posts admittedly read, I'm not that serious about this, and actually have a good deal of fun from discussing Oldcrons vs. Newcrons. While I don't care for the new direction of the Necrons, I try not to fault others for liking it. I mean, it's not like they're Space Wolf fans.


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iproxtaco wrote:Define what inhuman means. If it's not human, like an animal, then being sentient and inhuman walk hand in hand.

"Mentally alien" might be a better way to phrase it. Tau are alien, but they aren't mentally so far-removed from humans. Same with Eldar, to a slightly lesser extent depending on what you're reading.

Necrons however, are now in terms of personality indistinguishable from a human, short of maybe Zandrekh, due to having a pretty severe malfunction.

Means the same thing really.

Naw, knowing and understanding something are different.

They're still like that, mostly. Now they just want to rule life instead of destroy it, but they still loath everything. They were far too similar to the Tyranids before. At least now they have a unique motive on the whole.

Are they? I'm not seeing it. Imotekh may be to an extent like that, though really, I'm not so sure it's "loathing" so much as it is "arrogance".

What is their unique motive? To regain their flesh? True, that's unique, but it also is one of the examples in the codex that attempts to make the Necrons more sympathetic than they ever were,

True, but those Lords and to a lesser extent Immortals still didn't have free will.

Depends on what you mean by free will. They willingly served the C'tan, in the same way humans willingly serve the Emperor (Or, nowadays, the High Council), or Tau the Ethereals.

Maybe they initially threw their lot in with the C'tan willingly, but in the old codex they were still robot servants with no free-will.

Read above.

But you would like them to have remained pretty much how they were: slaves with no free will, who did their master's bidding without question and to its exact specifications. Like a robot. The only difference between a Warrior and a Lord was that the Lord could think about how to solve a problem, but was still bound to orders.

If an Ethereal tells a Tau to jump, they say "How high?" If they tell the Tau to kill themselves, they ask "Choose the artery".

Any real difference between a Necron Lord, a Tau, or a human, was arbitrary at best, in terms of their loyalty to the C'tan.

Now, do keep in mind, I am not saying the C'tan should of been completely monolithic, I think for instance an increase, due to outright rebellion or malfunctions or whatever, of Lords taking their Necron armies and rebelling against the C'tan would of actually been really cool. I think that if GW could give the upper echelons of the Necrons character without destroying the feel of the army would be similarly cool. But all of the sudden the fluff that I loved no longer having happened, the feel and thematic elements of the Necrons being gone, the C'tan being blown to pieces and enslaved, several Necron Lords coming off as more "amusing" than threatening? Nah, I don't think that was very cool.

That's true. More of an effort could have been made to make the newcrons a story progession (the kind the fans always clamor for) and less of a full blown retcon.
The Dark Eldar codex is a good example I think. Not to Godwin this up (on Dakka Ward=Hitler) but it's another example of how Ward is not that great of a writer compared to some of the others.

I am admittedly not sure what you are asking me to do here.

I was asking if you could think of something that was sentient yet inhuman, which seems impossible to do as far as I know at least.

That was actually a typo, of a sort. Actually, it's more that I phrased that completely wrong. We knew, of course, what drove them to do what they did. But that does not equal understanding. For instance, I know that some prefer the Necrons being straight Egyptian Cartoon Villains in Space, but I can't begin to understand why they do.

It's funny I find that people throw around "Mary Sue" as the stock insult for hero characters, and "Saturday Morning Cartoon Character" as the stock insult for villains, but they never expand into what they really mean by it.

Anyway, it was pretty simple why the Necrons did what they did, jealousy and the enslavement of their race to the C'tan. Again I've read most of the scant Necron literature out there and I don't think the relationship between the sentient Necrons and the C'tan was explored enough, but they may have had free will only for problem solving. I think at the end of the day they still were slaves to the C'tan but they could think of ways to exterminate outside of "move and shoot" like the rest of their race. Either way I still don't see what was so alien about any of the Necrons or C'tan, you even said yourself simple religious worship could have been it.

I think part of the problem was the writing, or to be more specific they wrote themselves into a dead end and couldn't get out. You can't really make the C'tan and Necrons so alien and unknowable otherwise you couldn't write about it. Sure you could go all HP Lovecraft but I don't think that kind of fiction would fit well into 40k or a TT army. The problem was in all the stories it was simply stated "oh the Necrons/C'tan are so unknowable and mysterious!" but if you look at what was already written you should be saying "well no, not really. The C'tan are hungry and the Necrons are slaves" a simplification of course, but the point is that the writers simply told us they were so alien without really showing us how they were so alien and to be fair they really couldn't.

A problem, yes, but not one that justified a retcon of what came before.

Except for the relationship C'tan and their FTL travel very little has been retconned that drastically. In fact a lot of the old fluff can easily co-exist with the new stuff.

You're not seeing my point, which is that that could of been expanded on without a huge retcon and a complete change in thematic direction.

Well I guess they did change the theme but I think for the better, they became a lot more complex and and somewhat relatable (probably because they expanded on the whole sentience bit) which is a good thing IMO. It's good when you can get personal with your army, which sounds weird but I don't know how to better phrase it.

Lords, on the occasions they did speak, revealed they served willingly, and even seemed to revere their C'tan masters. You know, like one would a god.

Well here it seems to me that you are saying they had a pretty simple and understandable motive: religious fervor, which is already covered by the IoM.

No, the "serving the C'tan" thing isn't the only thing lost, the entire thematic direction and feel of the army is changed, and frankly I can't even take them seriously anymore, some of the characters at least. Trazyn the Infinite being one.

I think the fluff matured or evolved to be honest. It actually has more than just one theme and some nuance to it. Like the inexorable toll time has on all beings even those without flesh. There's is a lot of paranoia, psychosis, and other psychological maladies afflicting the Lords, Destroyers, and Flayed Ones. Another theme is punishment for dealing with evil powers, i.e. the whole C'tan bio-transferrance debacle, and the Flayer curse. I also don't understand why people can't take them seriously they aren't like Orks. They have personality, wit, eloquence, motives, and sometimes dementia. In fact I think GW made them unique in that their robo race is actually somewhat humanized rather than a bot yelling "EXTERMINATE!" and sputterig binary code. Or in other words the undead of 40k actually have personality, which I think is rather unique since undead in most fiction don't have any, which of course isn't a surprise.

Well, you said that in response to my post, so that was the way I took it.

And don't be mislead by the way my posts admittedly read, I'm not that serious about this, and actually have a good deal of fun from discussing Oldcrons vs. Newcrons. While I don't care for the new direction of the Necrons, I try not to fault others for liking it. I mean, it's not like they're Space Wolf fans.

A lot of the nuance of conversation gets lost on the internet or plain text for that matter. I don't mean to offend, but I do admit I should stay on focus more.

Also liking Space Wolves is unforgivable