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nosferatu1001 wrote:Hmm, partially quoting to leave out the important bit. Shock

".... , but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power"

Context, its a sod isnt it. When you now put your partial quote together, you will see that "weapons power" refers to the psychic power granted TO THE WIELDER by the force weapon

You are still incorrect on this

Equally as shocking perhaps as you never acknowledging that the rule also specifies that the power is the weapons.

Force weapons are potent psychic weapons used exclusively by trained psykers. They have the same effects as power weapons, but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power, used in the close combat, that can instantly extinguish the life force of any opponent.

Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapons's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player's turn.

Both statements are diametrically opposed. I would have no trouble granting the Necron player the ability to use Mindshackle to invoke a Force Weapon's ID ability.

No, the statements are NOT opposed, you are just failing at understanding the context of the phrase "weapons power"

It means the power the weapon conferred to the wielder by the weapon

Context tells you this, when you read the whole thing together.

Nos has it right, the force weapon gives the wielder one additional psychic power that the wielder can use.

the sword alone does nothing, since the wielder has to use the swords power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It means the power the weapon conferred to the wielder by the weapon

Exactly! Thank you for understanding. As such, the Necron player DOES get to use the ID effect. Case closed.

Um, no.

"The power" is the psychic power that is granted to the wielder. It is still not able to be used by MSS, for the reasons given

Do not partial quote, and declare "case closed"

azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It means the power the weapon conferred to the wielder by the weapon

Exactly! Thank you for understanding. As such, the Necron player DOES get to use the ID effect. Case closed.

No, as nos said, The power is granted to the wielder, the weapon itself can not cast the power. the weapon does not have a LD score to test against to use the power, so you can not use it.

The sword, if swung by a non psyker, is just a sword.

Its still a power sword though. And that is worth something.

DeathReaper wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It means the power the weapon conferred to the wielder by the weapon

Exactly! Thank you for understanding. As such, the Necron player DOES get to use the ID effect. Case closed.

No, as nos said, The power is granted to the wielder, the weapon itself can not cast the power. the weapon does not have a LD score to test against to use the power, so you can not use it.

The sword, if swung by a non psyker, is just a sword.

Ultimately this is all made possible by the Force Sword. Everything that a psyker can do with it is because of the sword. This is all an ability of a Force Sword. It seems that you all are immediately jumping to the end focusing on the wielder and forgetting how you even got there in the first place (with the Force Sword).

-Yad

The force sword bestows upon the wielder one additional psychic power. As per P.50 in the BRB.

The sword itself can not cast the Psychic power contained within it.

Remember the rule is: "Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts d3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack. These hits [not attacks] are resolved at the victim's strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

The ability to cast a psychic power is not "any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

DeathReaper wrote:The force sword bestows upon the wielder one additional psychic power. As per P.50 in the BRB.

The sword itself can not cast the Psychic power contained within it.

Remember the rule is: "Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts d3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack. These hits [not attacks] are resolved at the victim's strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

The ability to cast a psychic power is not "any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

Even if I ignore everything else in the universe outside of your own quote, you STILL prove my point: yes, Mindshackle Scarabs CAN use the ID ability.

DeathReaper wrote:The sword itself can not cast the Psychic power contained within it.

How can you say this? You just finished quoting the book, that said:

DeathReaper wrote:The force sword bestows upon the wielder one additional psychic power. As per P.50 in the BRB.

Do you not understand what "bestows" means? If I were to bestow upon you a Diet Coke, that means you would have that Diet Coke because of me. I gave it to you.

Not only do I get to Mindshackle you into using the ID ability of the Force Weapon, but you very well may suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as a result, because that would count as one of the penalties of that close combat weapon.

azazel the cat wrote:Even if I ignore everything else in the universe outside of your own quote, you STILL prove my point: yes, Mindshackle Scarabs CAN use the ID ability.

Please provide actual rules that allow a force sword to cast the power the sword bestows upon the wielder.

azazel the cat wrote:
Do you not understand what "bestows" means? If I were to bestow upon you a Diet Coke, that means you would have that Diet Coke because of me. I gave it to you.

Not only do I get to Mindshackle you into using the ID ability of the Force Weapon, but you very well may suffer a Perils of the Warp attack as a result, because that would count as one of the penalties of that close combat weapon.

I am not the one misunderstanding the word bestow. the sword grants the user one extra psychic power. the sword itself has no psychic powers, it just allows the wielder the option of using the power that the sword gives to him.

Lets look at your Diet Coke analogy. In this case I am allowed to drink the Diet Coke if i roll 10 or under on 2d6(Psyker can cast a Psychic power), you have the ability to bestow upon me a Diet Coke if I am wielding you.(Force sword give the wielder an extra power) As mentioned before I can drink said diet coke if I roll 10 or under.(Psyker can cast the power, not the sword)

That does not mean you can drink the Diet Coke, since you can only bestow upon me a Diet Coke.

A Perils of the Warp attack is not a penalty of wielding a force sword, If it is you would need to prove it by providing a page reference that says this.

The sword allows the wielder to cast an additional Psychic power.

That is very different than "any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

A force weapon on its own can not cast the power contained within it, the psyker needs to take a psychic test to activate it. Thus it is not the swords ability to cast psychic powers, its the wielders.

why do people always try and convince others on the internet of their rightness and the others wrong ness? just take your own interp and if worst comes to the worst and you meet someone at home with the opposite view...roll a D6 for it.

Until it and the rest of the necron book has been FAQed all necron players generally will take the better interp for them and their oppos will generally take the softer interp for themselves.

i am a necron player and am reading it either way. i ask my oppo his thoughts on it and i go with that. cant be bothered arguing about a vague interp. i mean the powers pretty good even without sucking someones soul. they cant attack and you go nuts on them. SHAAAAZAAAM!

ps i do it with 5 lords with mscabs. good times! quite a few points but is gold!

let me try to explain it this way.
Bob (mastery level 2) has a FW.
Sam (the necron with mindshackle scarabs), successfully takes over Bob's body, causing d3 hits.
Bob then gets to decide whether or not to activate the ID abilitiy of his FW.
So yes, being able to ID is possible, but the non-necron player is the one who gets to decide whether or not to activate it.

Rocdocta2 wrote:why do people always try and convince others on the internet of their rightness and the others wrong ness?

Well you are in the rules part of the form where we try to figure out what the rules say, hence the YMDC forum.

Rocdocta2 wrote:Until it and the rest of the necron book has been FAQed all necron players generally will take the better interp for them and their oppos will generally take the softer interp for themselves.

This statement is erroneous. Please do not assume we are discussing the rules to gain some kind of advantage.

Rocdocta2 wrote:i am a necron player and am reading it either way

The struck text has nothing to do with anything.

However you read it either way, but as posted before there are several reasons why the force sword can not use a psychic power, as only Psykers have the ability to use Psychic powers.

DeathReaper wrote:
The sword allows the wielder to cast an additional Psychic power.

That is very different than "any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

"The sword allows the wielder" = "an ability given by the sword"

QED, Mindshackle Scarabs allow the use of the ID effect.

This is as plain as this issue can get, and I'm tired of going in circles. You're welcome to attempt to rules lawyer minutae to dull the ability all you want, but you well know the intended effect as per the fluff is to give the Necron complete control in CC over the Mindshackles' target.

azazel, the sword allows the "wielder" to use the ID ability, but they have to make a psychic test. Something that the scarabs do not force upon the target.

DeathReaper wrote:

Rocdocta2 wrote:why do people always try and convince others on the internet of their rightness and the others wrong ness?

Well you are in the rules part of the form where we try to figure out what the rules say, hence the YMDC forum.

Rocdocta2 wrote:Until it and the rest of the necron book has been FAQed all necron players generally will take the better interp for them and their oppos will generally take the softer interp for themselves.

This statement is erroneous. Please do not assume we are discussing the rules to gain some kind of advantage.

Rocdocta2 wrote:i am a necron player and am reading it either way

The struck text has nothing to do with anything.

However you read it either way, but as posted before there are several reasons why the force sword can not use a psychic power, as only Psykers have the ability to use Psychic powers.

lol i thought that i was in the discussion thread and thought...come on guys let it go. no ones going to say "hey your 180 degree point of view is better than mine!"

actually reading your post it made me laugh. my post is erroneous? no it is an observation. go on any GK website and i dont see many of them saying "damn too bad we force blade ourselves". same as i dont see too many necron players saying the opposite.

and striking out the text in my post. seriously? you actully took took the time to strike out someone else post and comment on it as if it was a meaningful insight... LOL.

dont take the game too serious mate.

Azazel - erm, no. The choice of whether to use the psychic power is in the control of the model, not the weapon. You get to use the weapons abilities, but do NOT get to decide whether the player gets to use the psychic power.

Oh, and dont use "QED" when you havent actually demonstrated anything but you rewriting the rules to make them say what you think they should say.

I would tend to agree that the force weapon is still a power weapon but it doesn't state you would be able to make the psycic power. So I think you would treat it like a power weapon and have it swing as a power weapon. A force weapon comes with a choice to use a pysic power on an opponent. The pyscic power is not part of the melee weapon, but the weapon allows the psycer to use his power if he chooses to. As you can still perils of the warp on a psycic test.

Yes, the wielder of the NFW may be granted an additional psychic power but not the ability to cast an additional one. what if the character had already used up his allocation of psychic powers before the scarabs were used? the NFW may have the power but it needs to be activated and the scarabs cant make a psyker do that.

If a lone enemy model, such as Mephiston charged into a group of lords and they all had mind shackle scarabs, would meph have to test for every model in btb with him that was equipped with the MSC's?

It looks to me that both sides are right on this one. You get the power weapon hit and then you get to option of using a psychic power to cause it to inflict ID. Now the thing is the ID power say 'may' make a psychic test not 'must'. So yes you made the psycher hit himself and gave him the option of making it ID. I doubt seriously he choses to ID himself though...

Garukadon wrote:If a lone enemy model, such as Mephiston charged into a group of lords and they all had mind shackle scarabs, would meph have to test for every model in btb with him that was equipped with the MSC's?

No, the phrasing is "Instead of striking normally, he inflicts d3 hits (not attacks) on his own unit." So with that he may have to leadership test for every lord... Not sure on that one... But as far as attacking goes no he will not swing 5 times because he fails to the 5 lords with mindshakle scarabs next to him.

He has to test 5 times, once per MSS, but if he fails 1+ he hits himself D3 times, as you can only "instead of attacking normally" once.


So you increase the odds dramatically, but dont do any more damage

nosferatu1001 wrote:He has to test 5 times, once per MSS, but if he fails 1+ he hits himself D3 times, as you can only "instead of attacking normally" once.


So you increase the odds dramatically, but dont do any more damage

This seems to be the first time that Nosferatu1001 and I agree on something.

Well, you have to occassionally be right

nosferatu1001 wrote:He has to test 5 times, once per MSS, but if he fails 1+ he hits himself D3 times, as you can only "instead of attacking normally" once.


So you increase the odds dramatically, but dont do any more damage

That sounds good to me. Thanks guys.