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Howdy all... I have seen the internet falling in love with mindshackle scarabs lately, but for many of the wrong reasons it seems. Figured here is a good place for discussion.

OK, so first the rules:

"Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts d3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack. These hits [not attacks] are resolved at the victim's strength, and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his close combat weapons."

So, you get d3 hits (no need to roll to hit) at the victims strength modified by weapons.

No other special rules are mentioned, and per the first sentence quoted above, these hits are done instead of your normal attacks with their normal rules.

Monstrous creatures, for example, will not cause wounds with no armor save unless they also have a power weapon, as the mindshackle only use the victims strength and weapons.

Force weapons will not activate, as the psyker casts the power, and mindshcakle scarabs only use the victims strength and weapon, they dont allow the necron player to cast their victims psychic abilities.

Models like straken, who have special rules that allow them to ignore armor saves, only use their base strength and weapon. In strakens case, that is a s6 regular ccw or s6 pistol ccw.

Tyranids as a rule dont get close combat weapons. So the swarmlord can not instant death himself, as the mindshackle rules only cause d3 s6 regular hits (not attacks) when used on him. His other rules for combat do not apply, as again mindshackle scarabs do not attack normally.

Brotherhood champion's stances do not change how mindshackle scarabs work. Regardless of what stance is chosen, the champion will cause d3 hits (not attacks) with their weapon (anointed blade) at the models strength and init 5. Choosing blade shield, which does not let the Brotherhood champion attack that turn, will not stop mindshackle scarabs, as again mindshackle scarabs do not use the models normal attack rules, and instead just cause a number of hits.

Walkers/vehicles do not have a leadership characteristic. This does not mean they have a '0' or '--' leadership and autofail scarab checks. Vehicles or walker in base to base can be randomly selected by mindshackle scarabs; in this case then no test is taken and the ability does nothing.

All in all, mindshackle scarabs are still great, but they do not do all the amazing things that I have been hearing about. What mindshackle scarabs do is listed very cleanly, so that models with very odd attack abilities like Brotherhood Champions with their stances dont make the game explode with 17 layers of special rules brought on by the scarabs. YMMV.

So whats the confusion?

I think confusion in why people think they are so good.

It also says the hits gain all the benefits of the model's weapon so monsterous creatures would hit themselves with no armor save and I would argue that force weapons do activate.

it needs to be FAQed but raw it says the hits gain all the benefits.

also what if you have more than one model with scarabs in base with the target?
I would think both scarab users activate and can take control of the target twice causing 2d3 hits (assuming the target fails both times which is not guarenteed).

I actually just made a comment regarding force weapons in the mindsahckle vs FW topic.

forruner_mercy wrote:I think confusion in why people think they are so good.

To be able to have at least 50% chance of someone not hitting each round of close combat while you wail on them? I really dont know how else to gussy this up. Yes theoretically MC's arent bludgeoning themselves with as much fervor, but your squad you brought with you sure is. IC in close combat become separate squad allowing you to sequester CC bosses. Or better yet, how you charge in you make the squads powerfist (the only real threat to you) punch itself or squad mates.

Like much in the Necron book its not point and click always use, but its very nice and worth the paltry 15 points to staple people in place.

edit- ill second the eventual ruling that everything is allowed for the person hit by the scarabs, making Wraithlords and Carniex blow up on contact.

Happyjew wrote:I actually just made a comment regarding force weapons in the mindsahckle vs FW topic.

I only noticed that thread after I made my comment, it really can go either way and needs to be FAQed, that's the whole argument in a nutshell.

I wasn't trying to say that you were being redundant, I was just pointing out an answer to your question without retyping it.

got it, i didn't take it for anything other than leading me to the thread.

DevianID wrote:Howdy all... I have seen the internet falling in love with mindshackle scarabs lately, but for many of the wrong reasons it seems. Figured here is a good place for discussion.

Since I've been championing mindshackle scarabs since Yakface posted them as a rumour, I feel an overwhelming desire to jump in here, too. Let's begin:

DevianID wrote:Monstrous creatures, for example, will not cause wounds with no armor save unless they also have a power weapon, as the mindshackle only use the victims strength and weapons.

Strength and weapons, and all buffs/debuffs associated with that weapon. And in the case of many MCs, their bare hands (or pincers, et cetera) count as weapons. A weapon, by its definition, is anything used to do harm to a target.

DevianID wrote:Force weapons will not activate, as the psyker casts the power, and mindshcakle scarabs only use the victims strength and weapon, they dont allow the necron player to cast their victims psychic abilities.

I disagree, for very specific reasons as outlined in the other thread. Here's the link: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/412030.page

DevianID wrote:Tyranids as a rule dont get close combat weapons.

Yes they do. Their claws/pincers/tentacles/hands/whatever are close combat weapons. Otherwise, they would be unable to attack in CC, like a Rhino.

DevianID wrote:So the swarmlord can not instant death himself, as the mindshackle rules only cause d3 s6 regular hits (not attacks) when used on him. His other rules for combat do not apply, as again mindshackle scarabs do not attack normally.

I believe you're making a mistake in differentiating a "hit" from an "attack". A "hit" is an attack that did not miss. So yes, I believe that the Swarmlord can ID himself.

DevianID wrote:Brotherhood champion's stances do not change how mindshackle scarabs work. Regardless of what stance is chosen, the champion will cause d3 hits (not attacks) with their weapon (anointed blade) at the models strength and init 5. Choosing blade shield, which does not let the Brotherhood champion attack that turn, will not stop mindshackle scarabs, as again mindshackle scarabs do not use the models normal attack rules, and instead just cause a number of hits.

I actually do not have any idea how Brotherhood Champion's stances work, so I will not comment here.

DevianID wrote:Walkers/vehicles do not have a leadership characteristic. This does not mean they have a '0' or '--' leadership and autofail scarab checks. Vehicles or walker in base to base can be randomly selected by mindshackle scarabs; in this case then no test is taken and the ability does nothing.

I agree fully with you on this point.

Overall, I believe you are misinterpreting the line "Instead of attacking normally, he..." to mean "The model does not attack, but somehow hits are inflicted anyway at the model's base strength plus weapon modifier(s)." I do not believe this to be correct. I would interpret that fateful line to mean "Instead of attacking the opposing squad as he normally would, the model attacks when and how he normally would, but instead he attacks own squad, and auto-hits because his own squad is being backstabbed and is not expecting this coerced betrayal."

EDIT: Added link. Awkwardly. I am not good with links, apparently.

Other thing I usually see wrong is "fearless models pass the check automaticly".

They do not, as fearless allows you to pass morale checks automatically, not leadership tests.

They really are that good.

IMO, they are the most undercosted piece of wargear, and completely mandatory.

I don't see how mindshackle doesn't kick butt.
A dude in combat doesn't hit you, instead of attacking you, he hits his own unit.
You still smack him around with your S7 power weapons.

Overlord + 2 lords all with scythes and shackle, it greatly lopsides any fight into something you can actually win.

I look forward to making Loki kill himself.

-Matt

Ah darkslife good point, fearless does not help. That is kind of known but you do still see people confuse morale for leadership a lot like you said.

And HawaiiMatt, yes you are right they are still really useful, BUT I have seen a lot of people talking of the minshackle scarabs winning games by doing things they can not do. Like causing mephiston to ID himself by forcing the psyker to activate his psychic power.

Azazel, about tyranids. How would you resolve a tyranid creature that had a lash whip, a bonesword, and rending claws? Mindshackle tell you to pick one weapon, but tyranids dont wield weapons individually. Special CCWs do not stack with each other, but tyranids do not have close combat weapons as such, per page 33 of their codex. While yes, they do have items listed under 'close combat weapons' later on, we of course know that tyranids do not wield ccws, or a model with crushing claws and scything talons would have to pick one, instead of using both.

That said azazel the cat, I do agree that the tyranids with their funky ccw rules is a stretch for not working with mindshackle scarabs, since even though on page 33 they say tyranids dont really wield ccws, it does list items under close combat weapons later on, even if not all of these 'weapons' are ccws in their own right.

Edit: also azazel, while a weapon is anything that harms a target, we dont care about the broad defination of weapon here. The game provides the defination of close combat weapon, which the scarabs can use, and the defination of close combat weapon has nothing to do with the monstrous creature rules. Lets say you are right with the swarmlord's bonesabers counting as a regular ccw, which I am not 100% sure of but agree is probable. Well, the bonus of the bone saber is that it causes instant death and makes invulnerable saves be rerolled--they are not power weapons. With Mindshackle scarabs, using the creatures strength (6) and weapon bonus ONLY (ID and reroll invuln saves), as the mindshackle tell you exactly how to resolve their attacks, there is still nothing about ignoring saves in there.

Edit 2: in determining close combat results, it states that you count up how many wounds each side inflicted on their opponent. It would appear self inflicted wounds would not normally cause combat results to be changed. Thus, if you Mindshackle a powerfist sarge, who then kills 3 of his buddies, if the mindshackle do not count as causing the wounds then you can not count those 3 kills as for the necron's side in determining assault results.

HawaiiMatt wrote: I look forward to making Loki kill himself.

-Matt

Better if you don't. That might create a tesseract, resulting in a singularity that ends existence.



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DevianID wrote:Ah darkslife good point, fearless does not help. That is kind of known but you do still see people confuse morale for leadership a lot like you said.

And HawaiiMatt, yes you are right they are still really useful, BUT I have seen a lot of people talking of the minshackle scarabs winning games by doing things they can not do. Like causing mephiston to ID himself by forcing the psyker to activate his psychic power.

Azazel, about tyranids. How would you resolve a tyranid creature that had a lash whip, a bonesword, and rending claws? Mindshackle tell you to pick one weapon, but tyranids dont wield weapons individually. Special CCWs do not stack with each other, but tyranids do not have close combat weapons as such, per page 33 of their codex. While yes, they do have items listed under 'close combat weapons' later on, we of course know that tyranids do not wield ccws, or a model with crushing claws and scything talons would have to pick one, instead of using both.

That said azazel the cat, I do agree that the tyranids with their funky ccw rules is a stretch for not working with mindshackle scarabs, since even though on page 33 they say tyranids dont really wield ccws, it does list items under close combat weapons later on, even if not all of these 'weapons' are ccws in their own right.

I would address this the same way that I would if an assault marine with a pistol and powerfist was chosen.

So azazel, you say that if a tyranid with lash whips, bone swords, and rending claws is a victim of the scarabs, and you pick bone swords, then the tyranid no longer causes rending and no longer makes models init 1? OR, do you feel that the mindshackle makes you use ALL your close combat weapons, gaining the benefits and penalties of all of them.

If the second option is the case, then would a marine with a powerfist and a lightning claw be both s8 and reroll to wound?

Or option 3, because the tyranid player does not have a choice of what ccw they use, they get all bonuses and penalties of their not-quite ccw, which would differ from a model with a lightning claw and power fist, which normally WOULD have a choice of weapon?

FOrce weapons do NOT work, as you control the players ability to attack, NO ability to force them to activate THEIR psychic power.

DevianID wrote:So azazel, you say that if a tyranid with lash whips, bone swords, and rending claws is a victim of the scarabs, and you pick bone swords, then the tyranid no longer causes rending and no longer makes models init 1? OR, do you feel that the mindshackle makes you use ALL your close combat weapons, gaining the benefits and penalties of all of them.

If the second option is the case, then would a marine with a powerfist and a lightning claw be both s8 and reroll to wound?

Or option 3, because the tyranid player does not have a choice of what ccw they use, they get all bonuses and penalties of their not-quite ccw, which would differ from a model with a lightning claw and power fist, which normally WOULD have a choice of weapon?

Lash whips aren't a ccw, they are an item that makes models int 1. And yes, you can have the tyranid choose the boneswords and attack his own squad with them possibly, IDing them. Tyranids have ccws, all your arguments for them not are just from the fluff in the book. In the army section it lists the wargear and it will saw claws and teeth ect... those count as ccws even if they are nothing special. The swarm lord could Id himself too, the hits gain all the benefits of the user's weapon and MC weapons ignore armor saves so the mindshackle hits would ignore armor saves too. Just like a marine with a powerfist would hit his own unit with that powerfist.

You cannot "choose" the Bonesword, see page 32/3 for te special rule - the model attacks with all their upgrades, so bonesword + lashwhip etc

DevianID wrote:Azazel, about tyranids. How would you resolve a tyranid creature that had a lash whip, a bonesword, and rending claws? Mindshackle tell you to pick one weapon, but tyranids dont wield weapons individually. Special CCWs do not stack with each other, but tyranids do not have close combat weapons as such, per page 33 of their codex. While yes, they do have items listed under 'close combat weapons' later on, we of course know that tyranids do not wield ccws, or a model with crushing claws and scything talons would have to pick one, instead of using both.

I'd have to reread lash whip - if it reads opponents, then the Lash Whip still does it's job - Necrons (in this case) in b2b with the model are Init 1. Bonesword and Rending Claws will work as normal.

Tyranids specifically do not wield CCWs like other armies do, it's listed in their codex. That much is correct.

Tyranid bio-morphs and weaponry are essentially upgrades to the model itself - they give the models special rules to use when resolving their CC attacks.

I think the way mindshackle scarabs is worded the offending model is basically attacking it's squad, so vs tyranids i'd say that all their biomorph bonuses apply to their D3 hits, even though they don't wield CCWs.

I'm looking forward to the FAQ for this, as I believe you can use a force weapon, it being a weapon the model possesses.

Part of the rules for the weapon require a LD test, thus following the rule of the weapon (similar to how you follow the rule for powerfist, double strength, strike at init 1), you can do it.

No one has argued with me when I have used that logic.


Also, nids are effected exactly the same. They have CCWs, otherwise they would be unable to attack, and some are monstrous creatures.

ID with force weapons is optional. If it was not optional then you would have a point. As it is they can use the force weapon to inflict hits, but it would not get the benefit of ID.

darkslife wrote:Part of the rules for the weapon require a LD test

No, they do not.
They allow the option of another Psychic power to be used.

Heh, you can tell I haven't use force weapons since 3rd ed. My mistake.

tetrisphreak wrote:Tyranids specifically do not wield CCWs like other armies do, it's listed in their codex. That much is correct.

Tyranid bio-morphs and weaponry are essentially upgrades to the model itself - they give the models special rules to use when resolving their CC attacks.

I think the way mindshackle scarabs is worded the offending model is basically attacking it's squad, so vs tyranids i'd say that all their biomorph bonuses apply to their D3 hits, even though they don't wield CCWs.

Sorry for jumping in on this thread a little over a week later, but I have to agree with this, in regards to Tyranids and MC. The scarabs do state that is is the affected model causing the attacks, those attacks use his strength and any bonuses from CCW. Both MC's and all the Tyranid CCW upgrades, etc don't state it's the weapons bonuses, but "attacks caused by a model with", etc. Even though it's not an ability of a weapon for the scarabs to benefit from, the hits (and any resulting wounds) are still made/caused by the affected model. So yes MC's ignore armor, and Tyranids will suffer from all the effects of their upgrades.

For Reference:
Necron Codex (pg 81):
Mindshackle Scarabs: "...Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit when it is his turn to attack."

Tyranid Codex (pg 83)
Bonesword: "...No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a bonesword. In addition, if a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediatly pass a Leadership test or suffer instant death"
Rending Claws: "Close combat attacks made by a model with rending claws gain the Rending ability..."

BRB (pg 51)
Monstrous Creatures: "All wounds inflicted in close combat by a monstrous creature ignore armour saves..."

nosferatu1001 wrote:FOrce weapons do NOT work, as you control the players ability to attack, NO ability to force them to activate THEIR psychic power.

I think that this is wrong. You control any abilities (and penalties) of the close combat weapon. Not the players ability to attack. I'm actually not really sure what you mean by that. Causing ID is an ability of a Force Weapon. If the Necron player chooses to use this ability he/she forces the model to take a psychic test.

Just ask yourself what abilities does a Force Weapon have, not the model wielding it. That is all the Mindshackle rule cares about. I've seen the arguments that you can't make a model affected by the Scarabs use a Psychic power. In this scenario you are not. You are invoking the ID ability of a Force Weapon. It is that ability of the weapon which in turn forces the model to pass a Psychic test.

-Yad


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Happyjew wrote:ID with force weapons is optional. If it was not optional then you would have a point. As it is they can use the force weapon to inflict hits, but it would not get the benefit of ID.

I disagree. ID with Force Weapons is an ability that the Force Weapon has. The Scarabs allow the Necron player to use any ability the close combat weapon has. When you invoke the ID ability of the Force Weapon it forces the model to make a Psychic test.

-Yad

Yad - wrong, the force weapon gives the model wielding it an additional psychic power. Using that psychic power is NOT an ability of the weapon, but a result of causing a wound and passing the check.

No ID from a FW possible, however you can force them to chosoe to activate ID or not on a NFW, by making them either miss their chance or cause ID from their halberd (etc)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad - wrong, the force weapon gives the model wielding it an additional psychic power. Using that psychic power is NOT an ability of the weapon, but a result of causing a wound and passing the check.

No ID from a FW possible, however you can force them to chosoe to activate ID or not on a NFW, by making them either miss their chance or cause ID from their halberd (etc)

Once again, incorrect. Pg. 50 BRB (Force Weapons): The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.

The power belongs to the weapon not the model wielding it. The power is an ability of the weapon. Mindshackle allows you to use any ability of the weapon. Any really means any, hence you can invoke this power forcing the model to make a psychic test.

-Yad

Hmm, partially quoting to leave out the important bit. Shock

".... , but also confer to the wielder one additional psychic power"

Context, its a sod isnt it. When you now put your partial quote together, you will see that "weapons power" refers to the psychic power granted TO THE WIELDER by the force weapon

You are still incorrect on this