What is the KDR of Space Marines to Chaos Space Marines?

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**Ashiraya**

Blackhoof wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:The argument for "But they've got 10,000 years of experience!" on traitor legions is a bit flawed. In the Eye of Terror time passes at ludicrous, strange rates. There's a part in Soul Hunter or Blood Reaver where they talk about the heresy, and how it's only been 50 years or so to them since they were there.

thats actually a really good point. the onyl reason they have lived so long is because time is compressed.... so a chaos marine alive during the heresy might only be 100 years older now, aqnd only have 100 years of extra experience easily matched by a space marine veteran.

as for respawns, the ONLY time i have read reference to the Chaos Gods resurrecting their servants is Khorne resurrecting Kharn and Lucius reincarnating. thats it, and they are the top of the line champion for their respective god's.

I really doubt Joe the Chaos Marine gets a respawn whenever he dies....

Fail

yes, time in the Warp/Eye of Terror passes at strange rates, i fully agree as i have read that too.

However, it never said time were faster than in realspace, only different. Kharn might be 25000 years old- how could we know?

IMO, the ratio would be about 1-1. That's due to the Traitors having a lot more variation than loyalists. In the Ultramarines books the Iron Warriors are described as having no respect for the wounded at all. The wounded were grinded into geneseed-gruel!

This means that some might actually care MORE for the wounded than most loyalists, where others doesn't care about it.

As i said, variation.

**usmcmidn**

Thats interesting I have always wanted to read about the Iron Warriors a bit.

I know that Dreadnoughts are not like SM Dreads and it is just pure torture for CSM piloting them. So maybe they dont treat their wounded nicely...

I just dont understand why people cant play nice.

**Blackhoof**

Brother SRM wrote:
Fail

yes, time in the Warp/Eye of Terror passes at strange rates, i fully agree as i have read that too.

However, it never said time were faster than in realspace, only different. Kharn might be 25000 years old- how could we know?

The fail is all on you, my friend.

So, if time in the warp is faster... or even faster sometimes.... then why does humanity use it as their Faster Than Light transportation method? the warp must affect time so that time travels faster, or else it would be useless as a FTL system.

ships enter the warp to take a 3-hour trip that would take 3 months in realspace, not to take a 3-month trip that would take 3 hours in realspace.

not once has there been a mention of time going SLOWER in the warp than in realspace, not one.

therefore, time in the warp travels unpredictably, but the one constant is that it travels FASTER than time in realspace, no matter how much faster it is than realtime.

**Ashiraya**

Blackhoof wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:
Fail

yes, time in the Warp/Eye of Terror passes at strange rates, i fully agree as i have read that too.

However, it never said time were faster than in realspace, only different. Kharn might be 25000 years old- how could we know?

The fail is all on you, my friend.

So, if time in the warp is faster... or even faster sometimes.... then why does humanity use it as their Faster Than Light transportation method? the warp must affect time so that time travels faster, or else it would be useless as a FTL system.

ships enter the warp to take a 3-hour trip that would take 3 months in realspace, not to take a 3-month trip that would take 3 hours in realspace.

not once has there been a mention of time going SLOWER in the warp than in realspace, not one.

therefore, time in the warp travels unpredictably, but the one constant is that it travels FASTER than time in realspace, no matter how much faster it is than realtime.

Can you give me the quote to where it says the Warp has faster time than realspace? The warp is not understandable; that it is faster to travel through the warp is maybe through travelling in the right areas of the warp; I have read somewhere that one travels on "paths" through the warp, guided to these paths by Navigators. I would very much like to know what made you believe this. I have never read anything else that the Warp is unpredictable and dangerous, and that time passes different.
In the cases where time did go faster, you should remember that they aren't in the Warp 24/7; they are often in realspace on rampage. I see it as about 50/50 chance that time goes faster or slower.

**Eldenfirefly**

Against normal citizens, and normal soldiers on unsuspecting planets that get hit by CSM, its probably a really high kill death ratio.

In the CSM codex, the chaos chapter Purge alone accouted for 14 billion deaths. So their kill to death ratio must have been absurd.

CSM vs normal space marines, it would depend more on tactics, how outnumbered either side is, etc. Because physically, they should be fairly equal. CSM might be a bit better in close combat compared to the typical space marine (don't compare to dedicated close combat types). But battles and deaths may not be decided by close combat.

**Blackhoof**

Eldenfirefly wrote:Against normal citizens, and normal soldiers on unsuspecting planets that get hit by CSM, its probably a really high kill death ratio.

In the CSM codex, the chaos chapter Purge alone accouted for 14 billion deaths. So their kill to death ratio must have been absurd.

They probably would have used orbital bombardment to kill most of those people. imo they dropped in, took out resistance over several days/weeks, slaughtered as many civilians as they felt like, then left and bombed the planet/s into oblivion.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Blackhoof wrote:

The fail is all on you, my friend.

So, if time in the warp is faster... or even faster sometimes.... then why does humanity use it as their Faster Than Light transportation method? the warp must affect time so that time travels faster, or else it would be useless as a FTL system.

ships enter the warp to take a 3-hour trip that would take 3 months in realspace, not to take a 3-month trip that would take 3 hours in realspace.

not once has there been a mention of time going SLOWER in the warp than in realspace, not one.

therefore, time in the warp travels unpredictably, but the one constant is that it travels FASTER than time in realspace, no matter how much faster it is than realtime.

Can you give me the quote to where it says the Warp has faster time than realspace? The warp is not understandable; that it is faster to travel through the warp is maybe through travelling in the right areas of the warp; I have read somewhere that one travels on "paths" through the warp, guided to these paths by Navigators. I would very much like to know what made you believe this. I have never read anything else that the Warp is unpredictable and dangerous, and that time passes different.
In the cases where time did go faster, you should remember that they aren't in the Warp 24/7; they are often in realspace on rampage. I see it as about 50/50 chance that time goes faster or slower.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Immaterium#Warp_Travel

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp#.Tukt6bK6N5E

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/945727-warhammer-40000-dawn-of-war-ii/44139735/483420442
the specific post i am referring to:

Okay, found something, a quote someone attributes to White Dwarf 139/140.

"Average time elapsed on a ship during warp travel:
1 LY = 2-6 minutes
5 LY = 7-30 minutes
10 LY = 14-60 minutes
50 LY = 1.25-4.75 hours
100 LY = 2.5-9.5 hours
500 LY = 12-48 hours
1000 LY = 1-4 days (24-96 hours)
5000 LY = 5-21 days

Average time elapsed in the material world during a warp travel jump
1 LY = 43-270 minutes
5 LY = 3.5-24 hours
10 LY = 7-48 hours
50 LY = 1.5-9 days
100 LY = 3-21 days
500 LY = 2-12 weeks
1000 LY = 1-6 months
5000 LY = 5-36 months"

The warp is not as unpredictable as you make it seem. If you rolled the dice whenever you entered warpspace it would be utterly useless as an FTL system. While hazy, travel times CAN be roughly predicted. accidents happen, but they are rare.

besides- no traitor marine would be able to last that long. a space mairne is essentially immortal as-is, but due to the constant fighting they never reach old age. Dante, at 1,200 years old, is the oldest living space marine (Bjorn in a dreadnaught is older) and he is a tank. you need to be THAT good to survive that long. the traitor marines fight just as much if not more in the Eye, plus they dont give a damn about their wounded or pesky things like their own lives, so their survival rate would be much lower.

**Ashiraya**

why are you giving me arguments against you? I visited the first link you put up, and it said:

The timing itself is unpredictable due to the very nature of the Immaterium, and occasionally a fleet of reinforcements will emerge from the Immaterium to find that the war they were sent to fight in has long been lost, or not yet even started!

A perfect example of the unpredictability of the Warp. That you travel faster (not neccessary that time goes faster, but sometimes it does) can be likened to a fast current in a river, with the real world at it's banks. Though, the warp is both more dangerous and faster than a river, of course.
Thus, you do not travel fast by having time go fast, but by going through currents.
That's what the navigators are for. Finding these currents, and staying on them.

Blackhoof wrote:the specific post i am referring to:

Okay, found something, a quote someone attributes to White Dwarf 139/140.

"Average time elapsed on a ship during warp travel:
1 LY = 2-6 minutes
5 LY = 7-30 minutes
10 LY = 14-60 minutes
50 LY = 1.25-4.75 hours
100 LY = 2.5-9.5 hours
500 LY = 12-48 hours
1000 LY = 1-4 days (24-96 hours)
5000 LY = 5-21 days

Average time elapsed in the material world during a warp travel jump
1 LY = 43-270 minutes
5 LY = 3.5-24 hours
10 LY = 7-48 hours
50 LY = 1.5-9 days
100 LY = 3-21 days
500 LY = 2-12 weeks
1000 LY = 1-6 months
5000 LY = 5-36 months"

The warp is not as unpredictable as you make it seem. If you rolled the dice whenever you entered warpspace it would be utterly useless as an FTL system. While hazy, travel times CAN be roughly predicted. accidents happen, but they are rare.

besides- no traitor marine would be able to last that long. a space mairne is essentially immortal as-is, but due to the constant fighting they never reach old age. Dante, at 1,200 years old, is the oldest living space marine (Bjorn in a dreadnaught is older) and he is a tank. you need to be THAT good to survive that long. the traitor marines fight just as much if not more in the Eye, plus they dont give a damn about their wounded or pesky things like their own lives, so their survival rate would be much lower

Is this a joke? You know, WD 139-140 is really old. We are closing on 400 now, and since we get 12 per year, that means it's more than twenty years ago! I have found that so old things, even stated in WD's, are genrally unaccepted. For example, I tried to argument that the Space Marine "rank" Master of Sanctity is in fact a rank, but i was counterproven when my sourrce was from a very old WD.
Please use some newer source, take the Necron codex as an example of how dramatically things can change.

And, Marines are functionally immortal, so it is highly possible that Ahriman, Lucius and the others are 10.000 years old. Or more, or less, due to the Warp.

**Vaktathi**

Blackhoof wrote:
Average time elapsed in the material world during a warp travel jump
1 LY = 43-270 minutes
5 LY = 3.5-24 hours
10 LY = 7-48 hours
50 LY = 1.5-9 days
100 LY = 3-21 days
500 LY = 2-12 weeks
1000 LY = 1-6 months
5000 LY = 5-36 months"

These rates are interesting, as if you extrapolate that out to see how long it would take to cross the entire galaxy from one end to another (100,000 light years), it would take anywhere from ~8 to 60 years. Going from one end of the segmentum pacific to the other would take 5-40 years really. I have a feeling that would make some of the fluff rather silly with forces zipping around the galaxy at ridiculous speeds even with Warp travel

**Veteran Sergeant**

Blackhoof wrote:So, if time in the warp is faster... or even faster sometimes.... then why does humanity use it as their Faster Than Light transportation method? the warp must affect time so that time travels faster, or else it would be useless as a FTL system.

ships enter the warp to take a 3-hour trip that would take 3 months in realspace, not to take a 3-month trip that would take 3 hours in realspace.

not once has there been a mention of time going SLOWER in the warp than in realspace, not one.

therefore, time in the warp travels unpredictably, but the one constant is that it travels FASTER than time in realspace, no matter how much faster it is than realtime.

Travel through Warp space isn't linear like travel in realspace. I think the easiest way to rationalize it would be the idea of folding space. The Warp simply provides a shorter distance between the two points, not an acceleration of speed.

That's why the movie Event Horizon is the spiritual prequel to 40K. The space ship in that movie accidentally enters the Warp, drives the crew insane, and brings back demons into the real world.

**usmcmidn**

So when traveling in the warp time stops for anyone outside of it?

**Ashiraya**

Not at all, time progresses in realspace. However, if you see it from the traveller's perspective, time might go faster or slower, it's not regular.