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Do the books ever really say? I have read the codex but there is nothing that really says so.

KDR? what's that?

Kill to Death Ratio... SO for every Imperial SM killed how many CSM die?

That is sorta asking how many Space Marines there are in the entire universe.

A question that will never be answered.

I have heard from friends its like 10 CSM for 1 SM...

I called bull gak and wanted to ask...

Not quite that dramatic, but probably about 5:1 for most, 3:1 for BT, and 100000000000000000000000:1 UM, frakking plot armor

What do you think it would be for imperial guard fighting renegade imperial guardsmen? 1:1?

And does the fluff include medical capabilities? For example I know a SM force will have sufficient medical personal with them and an imperial guard force would to, to be able to tend to their wounded but do chaos forces have them to tend to their wounded or do they just leave them?

Overall I'd like to think that CSM have the more impressive KDR.

But that might be because I like to imagine CSM as 1. Lacking the Loyalists' numbers and 2. Being badass veterans from the heresy with thousands of years of experience... prone to resurrection if they die.

However this totally ignores Renegades; They're not cool. So they don't exist in my eyes. Yeah.

it really depends on the legion or warband heck with all the black crusades wouldnt the black leigon have been depleted severly by now, its really hard to say as for a couple heresy legions are practly gone by now because of the heresy and thier primarchs, im looking at you (o)\/(o) empereors children and world eaters

usmcmidn wrote:I have heard from friends its like 10 CSM for 1 SM...

I called bull gak and wanted to ask...

I kind of doubt it would be that heavily weighted. A certain book might have the "rule of plot device" where one side gets hosed by the other pretty badly.

But Astartes are Astartes (as much as I hate to say that). A chaos marine has the same wargear, geneseed, and so on that a Space Marine has. Perhaps even some ruinous powers mixed in.

Depends who's writing the story. Realistically, it should be about 1-1, with the Chaos boys having daemonic mutations and experience, and the loyalists getting newer toys like sternguard ammo and post-heresy tech. In some stories (like Space Marine) the ratio is like 50:1 in the Space Marines' favor. In the Night Lords novels it's closer to even.

Just like "how tough is a Space Marine?" it's something that boils down to the author of any given story, and what they think will make for a good one.

Loyalists are impudent whelps with barely any experience... Chaos are the true warriors

usmcmidn wrote:I have heard from friends its like 10 CSM for 1 SM...

I called bull gak and wanted to ask...

It all depends on who is doing the writing and who the protagonist is. It can vary as much as you want depending on those two factors.

That said, the Traitor Legionnaires are often seen as being somewhat more "elite" than normal Space Marines, after all, the very marines who built the Imperium with their blood and sacrifice in the Great Crusade and stood atop the broken walls of the Emperor's palace inches from total victory, who have fought through ten millenia of unholy war are likely to be some scary bad ass dudes even amongst the Space Marines. That's not even including gifts of the Chaos gods and the like.

After all, what does a Sternguard sergeant with 300 years of experience have on a Legionnaire who fought alongside Primarch's at the Siege of Terra and who spent ten thousand years fighting in the name of the Dark Gods?

Henners91 wrote:Loyalists are impudent whelps with barely any experience... Chaos are the true warriors

You are wise, and speak truth, Brother!

Vaktathi wrote:After all, what does a Sternguard sergeant with 300 years of experience have on a Legionnaire who fought alongside Primarch's at the Siege of Terra and who spent ten thousand years fighting in the name of the Dark Gods?

True, but not all Chaos Marines date back to the crusades. Some, like the Red Corsairs, are more recent renegades that turned to chaos.

usmcmidn wrote:What do you think it would be for imperial guard fighting renegade imperial guardsmen? 1:1?

And does the fluff include medical capabilities? For example I know a SM force will have sufficient medical personal with them and an imperial guard force would to, to be able to tend to their wounded but do chaos forces have them to tend to their wounded or do they just leave them?

I would think they would just leave him because there is no loyality among the hertics

The second Night Lords novel makes it clear that a night lord is equal to a blood angel in a straight fight. Other novels are most in the loyalists favor so to me a SM Vs a CSM would depend on who had the x factor on the day i guess. And lets not forget that both types of marines should be consided rare so meeting each other in battle would be viewed as a clash of titans even in 40k.

kronk wrote:True, but not all Chaos Marines date back to the crusades. Some, like the Red Corsairs, are more recent renegades that turned to chaos.

Not all the space marines of the traitor legions themselves are odschool heresy veterans either, the legions have been busy recruiting in a variety of ways. Fabius can make new space marines, and that fluff snippet where CSM recruit from a feral world using the geneseed of slain loyalists is probably indicative of fairly widespread practice among any warbands with the tools and know-how to do it.

But yeah, the oldschool traitors should be much tougher than even veterans from loyalist chapters. I think in a lot of cases champions, lords, sorcerers and chosen represent these guys (and with any luck chosen will get a boost come the new 'dex)

Henners91 wrote:Loyalists are impudent whelps with barely any experience... Chaos are the true warriors

Yet they follow someone who has lead, not one, not two, but 12 failed crusades, and is currently loseing number 13. You heretics might be better warriors, but the loyalists have the better soldier.

It's a pointless question. The ratio is entirely down to narrative: contrast the unstoppable performance of Space Marines in their own novels with the way in which the Night Lords effortlessly crush the loyalists in theirs. So long as it makes for an exciting war story, who cares?

(Continuity-obsessed nerds who'll whine about otherwise decent novels because "Zomg! Custodes should be harder than that!11!!" obviously will, but their opinions don't count.)

Castiel wrote:

Henners91 wrote:Loyalists are impudent whelps with barely any experience... Chaos are the true warriors

You are wise, and speak truth, Brother!

I may be a Loyalists but ya i'd say that CSM have more experience then normal marines. But loyalists make up for it by being the poster boyz of Games Workshop

i would say that your average space marine is better than the average traitor marine.

why?

discipline.

what makes a traitor marine a traitor marine? he has betrayed his emperor and turned from a life of utter duty, honour and service to a selfish existence where for the first time in his life he can do whatever he wants, to whoever he wants, and he has the muscles to do it.

space marines spend all day, every day either fighting, training or praying. What does a traitor marine do? rape, murder, pillage, play snooker, smash stuff, enslave people, torture people, smash more stuff, burn stuff, (aka whatever he wants)

a traitor marine does not train all day every day- why would he? he is free- he can do anything he likes.

therefore, space marines are, on average (not counting those few heresy-era traitors remaining, there arent many) better trained, and due to their faith in the emperor (most traitor marines are too selfish to have the absolute faith and willingness to die for their gods that space marines have)

so, i would think the ratio would be about 1.5:1, maybe up to 2:1 in the loyalists favour, depending on which legion they fight (if any) or if they fight renegades instead.

There probably aren't that many actual Heresy veterans left. Most of them have probably been possessed, become Lords, and well, let's be realistic, most likely been killed at some point where the Ruinous powers were unable to resurrect them. I imagine destroying the bodies of fallen Chaos Marines is probably of the highest priority. It makes a fun fluff point to mention some of them are these ancient veterans, but the actual numbers are probably absurdly low. Doesn't mean they can't be five, or six, or seven thousand years old or something.

The argument for "But they've got 10,000 years of experience!" on traitor legions is a bit flawed. In the Eye of Terror time passes at ludicrous, strange rates. There's a part in Soul Hunter or Blood Reaver where they talk about the heresy, and how it's only been 50 years or so to them since they were there.

Brother SRM wrote:The argument for "But they've got 10,000 years of experience!" on traitor legions is a bit flawed. In the Eye of Terror time passes at ludicrous, strange rates. There's a part in Soul Hunter or Blood Reaver where they talk about the heresy, and how it's only been 50 years or so to them since they were there.

Chaos has goons who are noob traitor marines or the worst dregs of the old legions... but then it also has the hard core, great crusaders, who have multiple thousands of years of experience and bitterness towards the Imperium.

Chaos's highest level veterans should FAR outclass loyalists' veterans.

But again what about medical facilities? Do the novels ever take into account what happens to a wounded CSM? Do they get left behind? I know there are dreadnoughts but I would think that the Imperial medical teachings and practices far outweigh that of chaos...

So even if it were 1:2/1:1.5/1:1 if you have an imperial space Marine who wounds a CSM enough to where he would eventually be killed because he has received no medical attention then... where is tat fluff? I know SM have implants that quickly scab their blood and make them take more damage then the average human but they are not invincible and are vulnerable to being mortally wounded.

usmcmidn wrote:But again what about medical facilities? Do the novels ever take into account what happens to a wounded CSM? Do they get left behind? I know there are dreadnoughts but I would think that the Imperial medical teachings and practices far outweigh that of chaos...

So even if it were 1:2/1:1.5/1:1 if you have an imperial space Marine who wounds a CSM enough to where he would eventually be killed because he has received no medical attention then... where is tat fluff? I know SM have implants that quickly scab their blood and make them take more damage then the average human but they are not invincible and are vulnerable to being mortally wounded.

You never really hear much of this sort of thing in general, however the CSM's have their own medical capabilities, and the powers of chaos also have a hand in things.

I could have sworn there was some fluff for CSM never truly dieing and just being reborn in the warp. So... the KDR of SM to CSM is 0, as they never truly kill a CSM.

Shrike325 wrote:I could have sworn there was some fluff for CSM never truly dieing and just being reborn in the warp. So... the KDR of SM to CSM is 0, as they never truly kill a CSM.

I think it's only the Chaos Gods' favourites that get a respawn, the rest have more or less outlived their usefulness.

Brother SRM wrote:The argument for "But they've got 10,000 years of experience!" on traitor legions is a bit flawed. In the Eye of Terror time passes at ludicrous, strange rates. There's a part in Soul Hunter or Blood Reaver where they talk about the heresy, and how it's only been 50 years or so to them since they were there.

thats actually a really good point. the onyl reason they have lived so long is because time is compressed.... so a chaos marine alive during the heresy might only be 100 years older now, aqnd only have 100 years of extra experience easily matched by a space marine veteran.


as for respawns, the ONLY time i have read reference to the Chaos Gods resurrecting their servants is Khorne resurrecting Kharn and Lucius reincarnating. thats it, and they are the top of the line champion for their respective god's.

I really doubt Joe the Chaos Marine gets a respawn whenever he dies....