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I guess it depends on what the unit is doing. It seems they'd be useful in a anti-MEQ CC unit. "Gets hot" is scary though.

I wouldn't give a plastic model one, but I would just suck up the points on a metal one.

I use two plasma pistols on my Wolf Scouts. Since their primary job is to come in and blow something up on the rear flank, I've had too many occasions where I've thrown a 1 on the meltagun / combi-melta shots so I find that my rear armor fire is more reliable with the extra pistols which also happen to fit into the correct range band for the unit.

I'd also consider it on a meltagun wielding Grey Hunters squad... not squads with flamers or plasma guns though.

Necrontyr40k wrote:My biggest problem with plasma weapons is that they blow up. I just can't get over the idea that an expensive weapon would take out my own model. A zerker with PP is a 21+15=36 point investment. Yet on average the pistol will blow itself up by the end of the game, killing the zerker with odds of 1 in 3. This means it actually costs 15+36/3=27 pts per pistol (base cost plus damage to army). That is a ridiculous cost, which can pay for a normal CSM with a melta!

... what?

The threat range of a plasma pistol is only 18", and you can't use it once you get into close combat, which is where berzerkers are going to spend a majority of their time. In highly favorable conditions, you're going to get two shots with the pistol per game. Combined with a .055 to kill yourself with any shot, and that plasma pisol berzerker should kill himself once every NINE games, and that's if you get to shoot the pistols twice per game.

I think the biggest reason people fear plasma is that they don't understand it.

Losing a model every once in awhile has a small cost, but look at what you gain. If a pair of plasma pistols kills a terminator before the berzerkers charged in, you probably just saved the lives of a couple of berzerkers. If a plasma pistol puts an extra wound on a monstrous creature, that's not only berzerkers saved, but that's time saved as well - time which can be used to sneak in another close combat before the game finishes. In this case, the potential cost is still rather low, but the potential payoff is huge.

Really, the question is more of if you're going to consistantly get dozens of points of payoff rather than if you're going to get the occasional plasma burn of payoff (which is why you don't see many plasma pistols).

Jihallah wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Niiai wrote:What are you getting at Jihalla?

He's stating the fact that those poor poor space wolves can only take a lot of meltaguns and missile launchers.

Yes, apparently poor wolves only get meltaguns and missile launchers, and this is all that they can take.

Asides from PP on GH

The more we live in the internet world, the more we put our tactics and strategy in a smaller and smaller box.

{/rant} To the bolded portion, most people dont have a clue what tactics and strategy are. Its all nothing but, according to mathhammer this is better than that, and all you can do is MOAR METOL BAWKSES!!! Things like psyfleman dread spam, razor spam, venom spam, and other such silly and unimaginative tactics pervade the hobby because people are such sheeple they cannot be bothered to think outside of the internetz holy declaration on what you should put in your army and what you shouldnt. And back on topic, because 4+ cover saves are everywhere supposedly plasma isnt worth taking, just take moar bultarzz n MALTA!!! blah blah blah. The fact of the matter is the ability to force your opponent to play in such a way as to give his 400 point unit of termies a cover save is useful in and of itself. That combined with the fact that you are reducing a 40+ point models armor save to a 4+ from a 2+ is super nifty. I have used plasma to great and terrible effect in every army where I have access to them. And while I agree plasma is overcosted, it is FAR from useless or a nobrainer-dont-use. {/endrant}

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Niiai wrote:What are you getting at Jihalla?

He's stating the fact that those poor poor space wolves can only take a lot of meltaguns and missile launchers.

Yes, apparently poor wolves only get meltaguns and missile launchers, and this is all that they can take.

Asides from PP on GH

The more we live in the internet world, the more we put our tactics and strategy in a smaller and smaller box.

{/rant} To the bolded portion, most people dont have a clue what tactics and strategy are. Its all nothing but, according to mathhammer this is better than that, and all you can do is MOAR METOL BAWKSES!!! Things like psyfleman dread spam, razor spam, venom spam, and other such silly and unimaginative tactics pervade the hobby because people are such sheeple they cannot be bothered to think outside of the internetz holy declaration on what you should put in your army and what you shouldnt. And back on topic, because 4+ cover saves are everywhere supposedly plasma isnt worth taking, just take moar bultarzz n MALTA!!! blah blah blah. The fact of the matter is the ability to force your opponent to play in such a way as to give his 400 point unit of termies a cover save is useful in and of itself. That combined with the fact that you are reducing a 40+ point models armor save to a 4+ from a 2+ is super nifty. I have used plasma to great and terrible effect in every army where I have access to them. And while I agree plasma is overcosted, it is FAR from useless or a nobrainer-dont-use. {/endrant}

The problem is, 'net lists tend to be insanely popular because they win games, and win them rather easily. (ie: Draigowing is almost idiot-proof against the average gamer!)

5th ed also highly favours mech-spam because of how easy it is to cover ground quickly, AND to contest objectives with super cheap 'metol bawkses!'... Hence, the godly meltagun is highly favoured in any army that can spam them;
- completely 'safe' option with 0 risk of hurting your own guy.
- 12" is all you need anyways when you're trukkin' about in rhinos/razors/venoms/raiders/trukks/wagons/etc...
- are ap1 so they get that critical +1 on the damage table roll. (sometimes for the life of you, you can never seem to roll higher than a 4_
- melta is 'assault' type, so even if you don't kill the tank you're aiming at, you can still charge in an slap it with the 'free' grenades all marines come with. (let's face it, most net lists are marines of some flavour!)
If you're a clever chap, you can also block most/all access points on non-open topped vehicles when you assault, thus killing the squad inside! (or part of it...)

Good players will think for themselves and learn how to use ALL the tools in their army. Hence why you see those odd-ball armies toting plasma guns... But as you pointed out, the majority of players are turning into mindless sheep.

As for me? I'll happily keep my plasmas thank-you very much and enjoy rolling lots of 1's every time I shoot with them!

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Mustela wrote:

Niiai wrote:What are you getting at Jihalla?

He's stating the fact that those poor poor space wolves can only take a lot of meltaguns and missile launchers.

Yes, apparently poor wolves only get meltaguns and missile launchers, and this is all that they can take.

Asides from PP on GH

The more we live in the internet world, the more we put our tactics and strategy in a smaller and smaller box.

{/rant} To the bolded portion, most people dont have a clue what tactics and strategy are. Its all nothing but, according to mathhammer this is better than that, and all you can do is MOAR METOL BAWKSES!!! Things like psyfleman dread spam, razor spam, venom spam, and other such silly and unimaginative tactics pervade the hobby because people are such sheeple they cannot be bothered to think outside of the internetz holy declaration on what you should put in your army and what you shouldnt. And back on topic, because 4+ cover saves are everywhere supposedly plasma isnt worth taking, just take moar bultarzz n MALTA!!! blah blah blah. The fact of the matter is the ability to force your opponent to play in such a way as to give his 400 point unit of termies a cover save is useful in and of itself. That combined with the fact that you are reducing a 40+ point models armor save to a 4+ from a 2+ is super nifty. I have used plasma to great and terrible effect in every army where I have access to them. And while I agree plasma is overcosted, it is FAR from useless or a nobrainer-dont-use. {/endrant}

Okay, that's true, but a smart opponent won't let one plasma pistol make his termies wait around in cover, or take 400 in one squad. MSU tactics make a lot of sense. Actually, a smart opponent will take TH/SS for the 3++. I mean, if you take 5 plasma guns in 5 berserker squads, your spending a lot of points to try to trick an opponent into hiding less points. For those points, you could take something else. People follow those tactics because they try them and they work! Nothing wrong with that in a competitive game. There are alternative tactics that work well, I'm sure, but internet tactics are geared towards the meta, and they work very well when competing against it.

EDIT: Additionally, I'd like to point out that I like plasma guns, my tactical squads all have them. However, part of the fun of the game is the competition. Even if you lose, it's nice to take a bite out of your opponent(figuratively), and when all you've got is plasma, well, they tend to sit in Rhinos. Meltas still have a good kill rate against infantry, and they do vehicles as well. I prefer to destroy a rhino, or even bigger tank, than two marines.

It all comes down whether you see playing a strong army as "trying your best" or "being lame."

Ailaros wrote:
... what?

The threat range of a plasma pistol is only 18", and you can't use it once you get into close combat, which is where berzerkers are going to spend a majority of their time. In highly favorable conditions, you're going to get two shots with the pistol per game. Combined with a .055 to kill yourself with any shot, and that plasma pisol berzerker should kill himself once every NINE games, and that's if you get to shoot the pistols twice per game.

How many assaults will the zerkers get per game? Will they shoot the pistols every time before they charge in? Will there be turns on which they will be in pistol range (12") but not in charge range (6") after movement?

The average game would go something like this:
1st turn: truck out in rhinos, jump out, bang! with the pistols, no assault
2nd turn: move, bang!, charge, something dies in pain this turn or in the opponent's turn
3rd turn and beyond - iterate bang! plus charge or just move

You get to shoot the pistol essentially in every one of your turns. And the average game lasts 6 turns. So, you will roll 6 times for each pistol. But you have 1 in 6 chance to explode. So, on average it will explode by the end of the game, which will kill the zerker 1 in 3 times. So, a zerker will kill himself every THIRD game.

The difference between our calculations is that you assess just two shots per pistol per game. Somehow I get to shoot more.

I think a BA Honor Guard Squad kitted out like this would be viable:

Priest
2x HG w/ Power Sword + Plasma Pistol
2x HG w/ Melta Guns

245 pts

has roughly the surviability of a 10 man ASM squad vs small arms, better firepower, and better anti-heavy infantry in CC, for about the same cost. Also gives you another FNP bubble. If you count the cost of the priest into this squad, its actually a very good deal.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
... what?

The threat range of a plasma pistol is only 18", and you can't use it once you get into close combat, which is where berzerkers are going to spend a majority of their time. In highly favorable conditions, you're going to get two shots with the pistol per game. Combined with a .055 to kill yourself with any shot, and that plasma pisol berzerker should kill himself once every NINE games, and that's if you get to shoot the pistols twice per game.

How many assaults will the zerkers get per game? Will they shoot the pistols every time before they charge in? Will there be turns on which they will be in pistol range (12") but not in charge range (6") after movement?

The average game would go something like this:
1st turn: truck out in rhinos, jump out, bang! with the pistols, no assault
2nd turn: move, bang!, charge, something dies in pain this turn or in the opponent's turn
3rd turn and beyond - iterate bang! plus charge or just move

You get to shoot the pistol essentially in every one of your turns. And the average game lasts 6 turns. So, you will roll 6 times for each pistol. But you have 1 in 6 chance to explode. So, on average it will explode by the end of the game, which will kill the zerker 1 in 3 times.

Where is the error
in my mathhammer?

No error. The chance of an individual shot killing the shooter is 1 in 18.
Even worse in imperial guard, 1 in 9.
Plasma weapons stink.

Experiment 626 wrote:

The problem is, 'net lists tend to be insanely popular because they win games, and win them rather easily.

Yet 'net lists are so insanely popular that everyone knows them. They become insanely predictable.

Mustela wrote:
It all comes down whether you see playing a strong army as "trying your best" or "being lame."

It's not being lame, or trying your best.
It's being predictable. The fact that it works so well is a statement on humanity in general.

Necrontyr40k wrote:You get to shoot the pistol essentially in every one of your turns. And the average game lasts 6 turns. So, you will roll 6 times for each pistol. But you have 1 in 6 chance to explode. So, on average it will explode by the end of the game, which will kill the zerker 1 in 3 times. So, a zerker will kill himself every THIRD game.

So, either plasma pistols don't get to be shot all that often, and so you don't need to worry about burns, and so you might as well take them, or plasma pistols DO get to shoot all the time and you're getting to rain down S7 AP2 death on your enemies several times a game.

Either way, you should take plasma despite burns (or not take them, but for other reasons).

Jihallah wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

The problem is, 'net lists tend to be insanely popular because they win games, and win them rather easily.

Yet 'net lists are so insanely popular that everyone knows them. They become insanely predictable.

Right, bad players don't use net lists, good players do use net lists, and very good players don't use net lists. Net lists are better than most garbage that newbs come up with, but really good players know how to counter such obvious things and are able to use unpopular things to great effect, in part because nobody really knows how to handle strange lists other than other good players.

What this has to do with plasma pistols, I'm not entirely certain...

In SoB lists, I'm changing VSS PP to combi-melta's. I don't really shoot more than 1-2 shots with PP per game, where combi-melta will provide that one shot, costs 5 points less and VSS won't kill herself.