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Kevin949 wrote:

mercer wrote:
Crypteks are ok, the lance isn't that awesome, solar pulse is handy, just a shame you need two Royal Courts, though in my first game I did have two Courts.

So, why do you think you need to have two royal courts if I may ask?

Well, I took double Courts to get more ranged fire power (I am more of a shooty player), but you cannot deny that the Crypteks are expensive for basically a lance shot which isn't a lance shot

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Great bat-rep Mercer!

I built that mech list you weighed in on! Been workin smooth dude! You were right about Libbys, flamers and priests!

Thanks about the report man.

Excellent! I am glad it's going ok. Just remind me of the list again

NL_Cirrus wrote:Nice Bat-rep! Pictures would have made it great though.

If I may ask did they do something horrible to the Monolith because I've read several Bat-reps with the new 'crons and have yet to see a 'lith anywhere?

Will get pictures next time

Yes they did, poor Monolith. All the funky living metal rule it did have as now changed, so it means melta can easily take it out, and because it's weapons are short ranged it will find itself in melta range.

NL_Cirrus wrote:Nice Bat-rep! Pictures would have made it great though.

If I may ask did they do something horrible to the Monolith because I've read several Bat-reps with the new 'crons and have yet to see a 'lith anywhere?

Ya, now that the lith is vulnerable to EVERYTHING (face it, glancing never really affected the monolith before anyway), the particle whip is weaker, the gauss flux arcs are weaker and it's only slightly less expensive, there's just much more desirable choices to take. Hey, let me just say this...the past two games that I brought a monolith it was destroyed by a fething TL Assault Cannon on a Land Raider. It's just not as stout as it used to be and it's supposed to be a front runner vehicle and it can't hold up anymore.

mercer wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

mercer wrote:
Crypteks are ok, the lance isn't that awesome, solar pulse is handy, just a shame you need two Royal Courts, though in my first game I did have two Courts.

So, why do you think you need to have two royal courts if I may ask?

Well, I took double Courts to get more ranged fire power (I am more of a shooty player), but you cannot deny that the Crypteks are expensive for basically a lance shot which isn't a lance shot

Oh, I see what you're saying then. Well, I've not taken 2 courts yet and have been doing pretty well against my standard opponents in my area. But 10 e.lances sounds pretty nice....

I didn't have the max lances, instead I had 6 so not a huge difference. I doubled these up and put them in a Ark. It just adds all up when you need a Overlord at least costing 90 points to get a Royal Court.

Feth! I just bought a new 'lith only to find out it now worthless even as a mobile BLOS terrain!

I just can't go on living w/o real living metal.

I wouldn't say useless, it's still AV 14 and the teleport ability is unlimited range now (but hampered somewhat). It's just not as good/threatening as a land raider now (surprised?)

Kevin949 wrote:I wouldn't say useless, it's still AV 14 and the teleport ability is unlimited range now (but hampered somewhat). It's just not as good/threatening as a land raider now (surprised?)

It's also 55 points less than a Land Raider as well, so I don't see why anyone would be surprised.

It's still an AV 14 Vehicle at the end of the day, and still has it's uses. Necron players are just going to have to learn how to adapt to the new shortcomings if they plan to use it. I'd say it's still useful, but now it has a lot of competition for Heavy support slot, when before it was really the only choice.

Sasori wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:I wouldn't say useless, it's still AV 14 and the teleport ability is unlimited range now (but hampered somewhat). It's just not as good/threatening as a land raider now (surprised?)

It's also 55 points less than a Land Raider as well, so I don't see why anyone would be surprised.

It's still an AV 14 Vehicle at the end of the day, and still has it's uses. Necron players are just going to have to learn how to adapt to the new shortcomings if they plan to use it. I'd say it's still useful, but now it has a lot of competition for Heavy support slot, when before it was really the only choice.

Well, it was 20 points cheaper before and much more resilient and feared. Now it's 55 points cheaper and nowhere near as capable as it was previously and a huge target since people hate them SO MUCH. The best saving grace the monolith has is that it can now use the teleport function and the particle whip in the same turn.

There's no real adapting for the shortcomings, it's still a gigantic pyramid floating across the board begging to be shot. It's difficult to get a cover save, reserves are unreliable especially now that it's forced to DS, it doesn't have a true transport capability and there are no weapon options for it. So, ya, I'd say the land raider has much more than 55 points worth of benefits for being an AV 14 death dealing transport. Granted, I believe it's the only other AV 14 (AS STANDARD, no upgrades) vehicle in the game.

There's no real adapting for the shortcomings, it's still a gigantic pyramid floating across the board begging to be shot.

Land Raiders manage to survive all the time, and they aren't stronger defensively than a Monolith is. (Unless you include one turn of smoke.) In fact, I'd say the Monolith is more durable than the Land Raider since it can't be destroyed by glancing hits still, and the Monolith can ignore shaken and stunned results.

It's difficult to get a cover save, reserves are unreliable especially now that it's forced to DS,

Yes, It can't get a cover save, like most giant things. and the Reserve thing kind of sucks, it's certainly manageable.

it doesn't have a true transport capability

No True transport Capability? It's better. It can pull any unit on from reserve into it's portal AND teleport units from across the board. It's better than conventional transports by a longshot.

there are no weapon options for it.

I'm sorry, is the 4 Flux Arcs that fire at Different Targets, the Strength 8 Large blast, and the Eternity Gate not good enough? What more options do you want? While you can't use the other options if you fire the particle whip, it's still got quite a default arsenal, better than any of the variant land raiders, I'd say.

So, ya, I'd say the land raider has much more than 55 points worth of benefits for being an AV 14 death dealing transport. Granted, I believe it's the only other AV 14 (AS STANDARD, no upgrades) vehicle in the game.

The Land Raider is fairly costed, but so is the Monolith. I would certainly not say the land raider has "Much more than 55 points worth of benefits"

Sasori wrote:

There's no real adapting for the shortcomings, it's still a gigantic pyramid floating across the board begging to be shot.

Land Raiders manage to survive all the time, and they aren't stronger defensively than a Monolith is. (Unless you include one turn of smoke.) In fact, I'd say the Monolith is more durable than the Land Raider since it can't be destroyed by glancing hits still, and the Monolith can ignore shaken and stunned results.

It's difficult to get a cover save, reserves are unreliable especially now that it's forced to DS,

Yes, It can't get a cover save, like most giant things. and the Reserve thing kind of sucks, it's certainly manageable.

it doesn't have a true transport capability

No True transport Capability? It's better. It can pull any unit on from reserve into it's portal AND teleport units from across the board. It's better than conventional transports by a longshot.

there are no weapon options for it.

I'm sorry, is the 4 Flux Arcs that fire at Different Targets, the Strength 8 Large blast, and the Eternity Gate not good enough? What more options do you want? While you can't use the other options if you fire the particle whip, it's still got quite a default arsenal, better than any of the variant land raiders, I'd say.

So, ya, I'd say the land raider has much more than 55 points worth of benefits for being an AV 14 death dealing transport. Granted, I believe it's the only other AV 14 (AS STANDARD, no upgrades) vehicle in the game.

The Land Raider is fairly costed, but so is the Monolith. I would certainly not say the land raider has "Much more than 55 points worth of benefits"

So the lith has a chance to ignore 1/2 results, big whoop. It basically did that in the last codex as well but it's less of a big deal now because it's much more vulnerable now that most stuff that shoots at it will basically pen and probably destroy it. But still, big whoop, the land raider has POTMS which is better than a possibility to ignore a 1-2. Land raiders manage to survive all the time because they have a MUCH better defensive ability with much better weapon options AND everything is twin linked AND anything that gets close to them just get pounded by the CC unit that is inevitably inside the LR AND mostly grants that assaulting unit the frag grenade bonus if they don't already have them.

And no, the teleport ability is not better than a standard transport capacity because as it is right now you can not assault out of a monolith teleport. So, it really only makes it viable for shooty units or if you really really need to reposition some random unit for whatever reason. I'd much rather have an AV 14 box to ride around in.

No, the Str 4 gauss weapons aren't enough. No, the str 8 AP 3 (which used to be str 9 and the possibility of AP 1) isn't enough. The eternity gate is, flat out, a joke. Great in concept, ridiculous in execution. As you said, mainly for the fact that you can't alpha strike (as you can with a land raider). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the particle whip, but now that it can be destroyed (and it WILL be destroyed when that pen 3/glance 5 comes up) it's a larger target. Plus not having the ability to pen AV 14 even though the LR DOES get that ability with several weapon choices...well, you see where I'm going.

Well, you and I (as usual) have a vast difference of opinion and a completely different understanding of the game.

So the lith has a chance to ignore 1/2 results, big whoop. It basically did that in the last codex as well but it's less of a big deal now because it's much more vulnerable now that most stuff that shoots at it will basically pen and probably destroy it.

Ignoring half the Results on the Glance chart is a pretty big deal, the fact that you think this isn't a big deal, is ridiculous.

But still, big whoop, the land raider has POTMS which is better than a possibility to ignore a 1-2.

How is it better? you can always fire your flux arcs at 4 different targets, and you always count as stationary for purpose of firing all your weapons as well. This is in addition to the ignoring Shaken/Stunned. It's a big deal, What is so difficult for you to grasp about this?

Land raiders manage to survive all the time because they have a MUCH better defensive ability with much better weapon options AND everything is twin linked AND anything that gets close to them just get pounded by the CC unit that is inevitably inside the LR AND mostly grants that assaulting unit the frag grenade bonus if they don't already have them.

Please point me to the Weaponry on the Land raider that is Superior to the Particle whip and Eternity gate. I'd also state that I believe the Flux Arcs are better than the Hurricane bolters as well.

And no, the teleport ability is not better than a standard transport capacity because as it is right now you can not assault out of a monolith teleport.

Do you want me to list all the Transports that you can't assault out of? Rhinos, Wave Serpents, etc etc. So yes, it is better than a standard transport.

So, it really only makes it viable for shooty units or if you really really need to reposition some random unit for whatever reason.

Are you serious with this statement? If you can't understand the massive tactical flexibility the Portal adds, then there is no reason to even discuss this with you.

I'd much rather have an AV 14 box to ride around in.

Last I checked the Monolith is still an AV 14 vehicle, and You can still transport units.

No, the Str 4 gauss weapons aren't enough. No, the str 8 AP 3 (which used to be str 9 and the possibility of AP 1) isn't enough. The eternity gate is, flat out, a joke. Great in concept, ridiculous in execution. As you said, mainly for the fact that you can't alpha strike (as you can with a land raider). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the particle whip, but now that it can be destroyed (and it WILL be destroyed when that pen 3/glance 5 comes up)

What more do you want? The Default load out is already better than any of the Land Raider Variants. So what if the Particle whip can be destroyed? Now it's like every other Vehicle. You still have 4 Flux Arcs, and the Eternity gate if the whip gets destroyed. It just sounds like you are so hung up on what the Monolith used to be, you can't formulate new tactics for what we have now.

it's a larger target. Plus not having the ability to pen AV 14 even though the LR DOES get that ability with several weapon choices...well, you see where I'm going.

How is not having the Ability to Pen AV 14 a big deal? The Land Raider doesn't have any AP 3 Large blasts, and the ability to fire weapons at 5 different targets, and being able to "Transport" monstrous creatures as well. See what I did there?

Well, you and I (as usual) have a vast difference of opinion and a completely different understanding of the game.

Judging by a lot of your recent posts, when you have been incorrect on multiple rules and what not in the new codex, perhaps you need to work on your understanding of the game some.

The monolith is not the super powered bad boy it used to be, but it is still quite powerful. AV 14 is really really good, especially since it is AV 14 on all sides. Go tell some Orks that AV 14 is easy to destroy.

Not to mention the fact that I just played against Monolith wielding Necrons with my Daemons - they knocked down both Daemon Princes and the Greater Daemon which left me with nothing that could penetrate the armor. It ended up contesting a pair of objectives and those useless Gauss Flux Arcs were putting the hurt into my Horror squads.

Ok, first off you only have a 50/50 shot of ignore 1 of them and an 80% shot to ignore the other. Also, if memory serves, some land raider(s) can get this or something very similar [better?].

So, you can fire your 3 shot Str 4 weapons at 4 different targets. Wow. That's so much better than hitting every enemy within 12" and D6 shots. While I agree that giving it a straight amount of shots is nice, it's weaker now. Yes it counts as a defensive weapon now but it doesn't matter either because the whip is ordnance.

Twin Linked Lascannon. Multi Melta. Twin Linked Assault Cannon. Just the two I can think of off the top of my head, both far better than the whip when dealing with armor.

Ok, so there's a lot of vehicles you can't assault out of...I'm not talking about those ones.

Oh I understand the tactical flexibility it adds, I'm specifically addressing teleporting "melee" units through it and how vulnerable they are for a round after doing so. There absolutely are ways to work around this vulnerability but the problem is that you WANT your melee units to assault out of it because there is more than likely a melta nearby that you want stopped. If for moving units for scoring purposes, warriors and immortals are hardly decent at holding up to CC but at least they can shoot when they come out.

Yes it is, and...sort of, you can't transport them but you can move them (though not out of CC anymore either).

I'm not saying I want more, I'm saying the lith lost a lot for only a minor point dip. I'm sorry man, the eternity gate isn't what you're making it out to be. The "worst" chance a model will have to not get sucked through is a 50/50 shot. Well, I'm not aware of any models with a str lower than 3 anyway.

You're correct, the LR doesn't have AP 3 large blasts. But it has so much more... The large blast is nice, for sure, but cover saves are so prevalent it's hard to get a clean shot off, especially in an objective game where the objective is most likely in cover or near it.

So I've been incorrect...you have too, but I haven't felt the need to point that out as to not make this personal. But I've been wrong about as many times as you've been right.

And now I'm sure a mod will come in.

Doesn't matter, I'm done with talking to you anyway, since you obviously can't grasp that perhaps someone can't memorize a codex in a short amount of time.

Sasori wrote:

So the lith has a chance to ignore 1/2 results, big whoop. It basically did that in the last codex as well but it's less of a big deal now because it's much more vulnerable now that most stuff that shoots at it will basically pen and probably destroy it.

Ignoring half the Results on the Glance chart is a pretty big deal, the fact that you think this isn't a big deal, is ridiculous.

But still, big whoop, the land raider has POTMS which is better than a possibility to ignore a 1-2.

How is it better? you can always fire your flux arcs at 4 different targets, and you always count as stationary for purpose of firing all your weapons as well. This is in addition to the ignoring Shaken/Stunned. It's a big deal, What is so difficult for you to grasp about this?

Land raiders manage to survive all the time because they have a MUCH better defensive ability with much better weapon options AND everything is twin linked AND anything that gets close to them just get pounded by the CC unit that is inevitably inside the LR AND mostly grants that assaulting unit the frag grenade bonus if they don't already have them.

Please point me to the Weaponry on the Land raider that is Superior to the Particle whip and Eternity gate. I'd also state that I believe the Flux Arcs are better than the Hurricane bolters as well.

And no, the teleport ability is not better than a standard transport capacity because as it is right now you can not assault out of a monolith teleport.

Do you want me to list all the Transports that you can't assault out of? Rhinos, Wave Serpents, etc etc. So yes, it is better than a standard transport.

So, it really only makes it viable for shooty units or if you really really need to reposition some random unit for whatever reason.

Are you serious with this statement? If you can't understand the massive tactical flexibility the Portal adds, then there is no reason to even discuss this with you.

I'd much rather have an AV 14 box to ride around in.

Last I checked the Monolith is still an AV 14 vehicle, and You can still transport units.

No, the Str 4 gauss weapons aren't enough. No, the str 8 AP 3 (which used to be str 9 and the possibility of AP 1) isn't enough. The eternity gate is, flat out, a joke. Great in concept, ridiculous in execution. As you said, mainly for the fact that you can't alpha strike (as you can with a land raider). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the particle whip, but now that it can be destroyed (and it WILL be destroyed when that pen 3/glance 5 comes up)

What more do you want? The Default load out is already better than any of the Land Raider Variants. So what if the Particle whip can be destroyed? Now it's like every other Vehicle. You still have 4 Flux Arcs, and the Eternity gate if the whip gets destroyed. It just sounds like you are so hung up on what the Monolith used to be, you can't formulate new tactics for what we have now.

it's a larger target. Plus not having the ability to pen AV 14 even though the LR DOES get that ability with several weapon choices...well, you see where I'm going.

How is not having the Ability to Pen AV 14 a big deal? The Land Raider doesn't have any AP 3 Large blasts, and the ability to fire weapons at 5 different targets, and being able to "Transport" monstrous creatures as well. See what I did there?

Well, you and I (as usual) have a vast difference of opinion and a completely different understanding of the game.

Judging by a lot of your recent posts, when you have been incorrect on multiple rules and what not in the new codex, perhaps you need to work on your understanding of the game some.

Ok, first off you only have a 50/50 shot of ignore 1 of them and an 80% shot to ignore the other.

And that is better than not being able to ignore them at all, which is the case for what? 90% of Vehicles, including most other Land raider varients.

Also, if memory serves, some land raider(s) can get this or something very similar [better?].

You are probably thinking of Psychic pilot.

So, you can fire your 3 shot Str 4 weapons at 4 different targets. Wow. That's so much better than hitting every enemy within 12" and D6 shots. While I agree that giving it a straight amount of shots is nice, it's weaker now. Yes it counts as a defensive weapon now but it doesn't matter either because the whip is ordnance.

You are comparing it to the old Monolith, which is not the point. We know that the old one had several things that were better. The Flux Arcs as they are now certainly better than the Land Raiders Hurricane bolters.

Twin Linked Lascannon. Multi Melta. Twin Linked Assault Cannon. Just the two I can think of off the top of my head, both far better than the whip when dealing with armor.

Better Dealing with Armor, yes. But that doesn't mean they are a better weapon. The Particle whip is better than all three of those put together for dealing with infantry.

Ok, so there's a lot of vehicles you can't assault out of...I'm not talking about those ones.

Really? then you should clarify that. I said It's better than Conventional Transports, and you said it wasn't. Rhinos, and Wave Serpents are Conventional transports. If you said the Monolith wasn't better than Assault transpots That would be different. Even then, the only assault transport even comparable to the Monolith is the Land Raider.

Oh I understand the tactical flexibility it adds, I'm specifically addressing teleporting "melee" units through it and how vulnerable they are for a round after doing so. There absolutely are ways to work around this vulnerability but the problem is that you WANT your melee units to assault out of it because there is more than likely a melta nearby that you want stopped.

If you are worried about a 12' melta, there are other methods to deal with it, than just assaulting out of the portal. Is the rest of your Army not a factor as well?

f for moving units for scoring purposes, warriors and immortals are hardly decent at holding up to CC but at least they can shoot when they come out.

Yes, they are bad at CC. That really doesn't have anything to do with the ability to teleport them onto an objective.

I'm not saying I want more, I'm saying the lith lost a lot for only a minor point dip. I'm sorry man, the eternity gate isn't what you're making it out to be. The "worst" chance a model will have to not get sucked through is a 50/50 shot. Well, I'm not aware of any models with a str lower than 3 anyway.

The Monolith was severally under-costed for what it did in the last book, it's point cost right now is perfectly understandable. It lost a lot, but it gained a lot as well, with a points drop.

a 1/3 and 1/2 Chance to fail, is still not bad odds. I don't think the Gate is the perfect weapon, far from it, but none the less it still has it's uses.

You're correct, the LR doesn't have AP 3 large blasts. But it has so much more... The large blast is nice, for sure, but cover saves are so prevalent it's hard to get a clean shot off, especially in an objective game where the objective is most likely in cover or near it.

Alright, In your statements about the New Destroyer weapons, you've harped that 4+ Save, is still better than the 3+. I'm going to say the same thing here as well. Besides the Flamestorm cannon, Land Raider weapons are worse off in that situation.

So I've been incorrect...you have too, but I haven't felt the need to point that out as to not make this personal. But I've been wrong about as many times as you've been right.
And now I'm sure a mod will come in.

Really? I know I can pull up a significant amount of posts of where you've been wrong lately. Feel free to comb through mine for the same effect. You'll come up short though, as I double check my codex/rulebooks when I'm in doubt.

Doesn't matter, I'm done with talking to you anyway, since you obviously can't grasp that perhaps someone can't memorize a codex in a short amount of time.

You don't have to memorize it, but it doesn't hurt to double check it before posting something. It would go a long way with all the inaccuracies you have been making lately.

Another great report.

I follow your batreps religiously. Keep up the good work!

Sasori+1

nice rep mercer and thats some heavy opposition but considering your experience with BA you know how to handle them.

Several ghost arks, how do you like 'em so far?

I'm worried about when the scythe comes out I might be forced to start necrons if they live up to their art in the book....

I don't know about anyone else but I would have gladly -well maybe not "gladly"- payed 300-350 points to keep the 'lith as it was, but that's just me

Sekminara wrote:Another great report.

I follow your batreps religiously. Keep up the good work!

Thanks man

SevenSins wrote:Sasori+1

nice rep mercer and thats some heavy opposition but considering your experience with BA you know how to handle them.

Several ghost arks, how do you like 'em so far?

I'm worried about when the scythe comes out I might be forced to start necrons if they live up to their art in the book....

Ghost Arks are alright, at first and like all Necrons vehicles I thought they was expensive. But they get the living metal rule, the shield, can reproduce Necron Warriors and knock out 20 S4 shots as well - that's pretty decent.

I do like the Scythe, but the way I see it you move up and keep your dudes inside or they get shot. Your Scythe then gets blown up and your dudes are now in reserve. That's rubbish, especiall if you're on a objective.

NL_Cirrus wrote:I don't know about anyone else but I would have gladly -well maybe not "gladly"- payed 300-350 points to keep the 'lith as it was, but that's just me

I wouldn't pay 300 points for a Monolith for how it used to be. I think the original cost was alright to be honest.

Well apparently your with the minority. Everyone I talked to said it was massively under-priced.

TBH I didn't think much of the Monolilth back then and don't now, so perhaps I am biased.

Sasori wrote:Wall of text countering people's complaints, and extolling the under-appreciated virtues of new monoliths

You realize you're going to have to create a Monolith-centric list and provide a bat-rep of your own, now...