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Not every army brings a bunch of flamers.

I don't think it's an axiom that you never want all-rounders. Much as it's repeated on the internet, and much as it holds true for particular role-players in most army lists, it's not a universal Truth. Particularly in an army like DE where your specialist units are cheap (shooty Trueborn squads, Venoms, Ravagers all coming in around or under 100pts), you have an easier time affording a big smashy rounded unit before you get to ard boyz point sizes.

A tooled-out squad of wyches + a raider for mobility + a character for extra hittiness comes out in the 330-350ish point range too. You're not paying all that much more for the Hellions, but you're getting a unit which really synergizes well with the powers of the attached character, and which brings its own inherent mobility to the party, rather than being vulnerable to getting stuck on foot if their AV10 skimmer gets popped.

Not every army brings a bunch of flamers.

I don't think it's an axiom that you never want all-rounders. Much as it's repeated on the internet, and much as it holds true for particular role-players in most army lists, it's not a universal Truth. Particularly in an army like DE where your specialist units are cheap (shooty Trueborn squads, Venoms, Ravagers all coming in around or under 100pts), you have an easier time affording a big smashy rounded unit before you get to ard boyz point sizes.

A tooled-out squad of wyches + a raider for mobility + a character for extra hittiness comes out in the 330-350ish point range too. You're not paying all that much more for the Hellions, but you're getting a unit which really synergizes well with the powers of the attached character, and which brings its own inherent mobility to the party, rather than being vulnerable to getting stuck on foot if their AV10 skimmer gets popped.

This. You summed up my thoughts far eloquently than I could.

The whole issue seems a little strange to me. Wyches work better in assault than hellions, warriors and venoms work better at shooting, and Dark Eldar really don't want stuff that's an all-rounder. They want specialised. Wyches in venoms do everything that hellions can do for a similar number of points, and can then claim objectives. They're also more survivable in combat. There's no need for hellions. If you must take the baron, take him and keep him away from killy things, or use him as a distraction, or something, but don't spend 500pts making him Ok at killing some things in one turn before being flamered to death. Just don't.

DE, like any army that can achieve it, wants duality from they're units. Wyches with HG for example can carry out anti infantry and AT duties, or 5 warriors in a venom with a blaster..... or a tooled out hellion squad with the baron. Wyches in a venoms are not a combat unit, full stop (from someone who used them for about 2 months) 15 S3 attacks isn't scaring anyone. It's also irrelevant comparing points here, as said you have around 500 points left after the core of a venom spam is in place. The hellions are scoring with the Baron btw. Sure wyches are more survivable vs PW but hellions will typically kill most of what they charge and from shooting (in cover, which they should be in) you have an equivalent 2+ save and in combat an equivalent 3+. They torrent wounds like crazy, they'll kill a 5 man TH/SS squad before they can hit (with shooting as well back and do the same to 5 TWC. They'll kill most of a 30 man boys mob with KFF cover before they hit back (21 wounds without factoring in CD). They're incredible in CC, but of course on top of this provide counter assault, score, have decent shooting (42 Poisoned shots) and are an effective way of dealing with mech parking lots.

Mannahnin wrote:Not every army brings a bunch of flamers.

True. Some bring powerful and fast cc units instead, or hordes of orks that don't care if they die. It's pretty much the same thing though.

Mannahnin wrote:A tooled-out squad of wyches + a raider for mobility + a character for extra hittiness comes out in the 330-350ish point range too.

Really? 'cos mine come in at 150pts for 10 wyches with an agoniser hekatrix and either two special weapons or haywire grenades, and then 110pts for 5 Incubi, with 35pts for the WWP which is also used for other stuff. Costs less than yours (295pts compared to around 400) and is more effective aka it's not shot to pieces in one fell swoop.

Mannahnin wrote:You're not paying all that much more for the Hellions, but you're getting a unit which really synergizes well with the powers of the attached character, and which brings its own inherent mobility to the party, rather than being vulnerable to getting stuck on foot if their AV10 skimmer gets popped.

I have two raiders with a WWP-carrying haemonculus each, so I don't particularly care if a skimmer is shot down. I agree that the rules do work well, as well as the fluff working well, I just don't see this as a good enough excuse at a competitive level for this many points. Use it if you want, I don't care, but don't try to tell me that they're way better than they are.

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:DE, like any army that can achieve it, wants duality from they're units. Wyches with HG for example can carry out anti infantry and AT duties, or 5 warriors in a venom with a blaster..... or a tooled out hellion squad with the baron.

You call almost no ability to deal with tanks and far less against infantry than their points would suggest duality? Their shooting is ok, but they can still easily be shot down to half their number with massed shooting, even from IG. Assault they kill anything in one turn, then get shot to death. And if they're charged? Goodbye!

Archibald_Buggerfingers wrote:It's also irrelevant comparing points here, as said you have around 500 points left after the core of a venom spam is in place.

I'm sorry, WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY!?!?! Points are never irrelevant, you can get better stuff for far less points, meaning you can have more of it, making it way better. Also, 500pts left after 3 trueborn squads, 6 warrior/wych squads, 3 ravagers and 6 haemonculi for the wyches or succubi or archons for pure killing power? In this case, add scourges, for even more anti-infantry and anti-tank power. Hellions don't fit in anywhere.

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:The hellions are scoring with the Baron btw

Dashofpepper wrote:Objective grabbing is what you do when your opponent has been crafty enough that you're not going to get to table them.

I wasn't sure you'd believe it from me, but Dashofpepper is quite possibly the best dark eldar player alive. Read it for yourself here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/350467.page#2507418

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:Sure wyches are more survivable vs PW but hellions will typically kill most of what they charge and from shooting (in cover, which they should be in) you have an equivalent 2+ save and in combat an equivalent 3+. They torrent wounds like crazy, they'll kill a 5 man TH/SS squad before they can hit (with shooting as well back and do the same to 5 TWC. They'll kill most of a 30 man boys mob with KFF cover before they hit back (21 wounds without factoring in CD). They're incredible in CC, but of course on top of this provide counter assault, score, have decent shooting (42 Poisoned shots) and are an effective way of dealing with mech parking lots.

Wow, you're telling me that a 400pts unit can wipe out a 200pts unit in one turn if they happen to get the charge and haven't been shot to death in the turn before? Wow!
Ok, so they charge the terminators. Then they get shot to death. Total points lost: around 200. My tactic: wyches charge to stop annoying unit from shooting, die after two rounds of combat, just in time for a talos or large unit of Incubi to charge. Costs less than the hellions as well, especially as I use a WWP to get everything there.

I tried this Option of putting the baron with the wracks on turn 1 after seeing a post where to metioned this tactic in passing Corollax. luckily i had placed the objective closer to the middle of the board, and the Baron had a chance to carry his pain token to assaulting Wyches, He wasn't in the initial assault, but the wyches had furious charge, giving me a wound or 2 more i would imagine (4+ to wound with re rolls), and after they finished the assaut and consolidated into cover the baron gave them a 3+ save.
Just an idea, Over leaving the baron on the back of the board.
Thanks for the idea


and the inspiration, I built him after learning i didn't need to play hellions

Glad to see the execution worked well -- and you've already discovered how it's supposed to work in assault games. Use the Wracks to give the Baron a pain token, curry it over to the Wyches, and enjoy the Baron's new S7 charge attacks on rear armor.

If you don't feel you'll be able to safely get far enough up the board, you also have the option of deepstriking -- and with a 12" movement and 6" assault, you can deal with the scatter with relative ease.

p_gray99 wrote:

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:The hellions are scoring with the Baron btw

Dashofpepper wrote:Objective grabbing is what you do when your opponent has been crafty enough that you're not going to get to table them.

I wasn't sure you'd believe it from me, but Dashofpepper is quite possibly the best dark eldar player alive. Read it for yourself here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/350467.page#2507418

This is not a good argument. Your others were better.

p_gray99 wrote:

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:Sure wyches are more survivable vs PW but hellions will typically kill most of what they charge and from shooting (in cover, which they should be in) you have an equivalent 2+ save and in combat an equivalent 3+. They torrent wounds like crazy, they'll kill a 5 man TH/SS squad before they can hit (with shooting as well back and do the same to 5 TWC. They'll kill most of a 30 man boys mob with KFF cover before they hit back (21 wounds without factoring in CD). They're incredible in CC, but of course on top of this provide counter assault, score, have decent shooting (42 Poisoned shots) and are an effective way of dealing with mech parking lots.

Wow, you're telling me that a 400pts unit can wipe out a 200pts unit in one turn if they happen to get the charge and haven't been shot to death in the turn before? Wow!
Ok, so they charge the terminators. Then they get shot to death. Total points lost: around 200.

This isn't 4th edition. VPs are not the be-all, end-all. Opportunity cost is certainly a factor, as you've pointed out. But the ability to take on the opponent's best hitters, be they assault terminators or thunderwolves,is important even though the Hellions do cost more.

p_gray99 wrote:My tactic: wyches charge to stop annoying unit from shooting, die after two rounds of combat, just in time for a talos or large unit of Incubi to charge. Costs less than the hellions as well, especially as I use a WWP to get everything there.

So you lose a scoring unit, and have to get two units where they need to be. As opposed to getting one unit there,it winning the fight and then going on to score and/or assault something else.

Portals are a bit of a different discussion. But the Hellions still have the advantage of bringing their own mobility. And a large unit with a 3+ cover save simply isn't going to be shot to death easily.

Mannahnin wrote:

p_gray99 wrote:

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:Sure wyches are more survivable vs PW but hellions will typically kill most of what they charge and from shooting (in cover, which they should be in) you have an equivalent 2+ save and in combat an equivalent 3+. They torrent wounds like crazy, they'll kill a 5 man TH/SS squad before they can hit (with shooting as well back and do the same to 5 TWC. They'll kill most of a 30 man boys mob with KFF cover before they hit back (21 wounds without factoring in CD). They're incredible in CC, but of course on top of this provide counter assault, score, have decent shooting (42 Poisoned shots) and are an effective way of dealing with mech parking lots.

Wow, you're telling me that a 400pts unit can wipe out a 200pts unit in one turn if they happen to get the charge and haven't been shot to death in the turn before? Wow!
Ok, so they charge the terminators. Then they get shot to death. Total points lost: around 200.

This isn't 4th edition. VPs are not the be-all, end-all. Opportunity cost is certainly a factor, as you've pointed out. But the ability to take on the opponent's best hitters, be they assault terminators or thunderwolves,is important even though the Hellions do cost more.

True. However, points are very good at showing us what the unit should be capable of taking out. You've also shown up quite an important point: that the enemy will target the hellions, being your best hitters. And at twice the points cost of terminators, I would imagine they would expect twice the enemy hitting power focused on them.

Mannahnin wrote:Portals are a bit of a different discussion. But the Hellions still have the advantage of bringing their own mobility. And a large unit with a 3+ cover save simply isn't going to be shot to death easily.

Yes, but 400pts means that they'll be shot by 400pts worth of enemy each turn at least, unless you've got a terrible opponent. Even a 3+ cover save won't keep you alive after two or three turns of that.

Yes, but 400pts means that they'll be shot by 400pts worth of enemy each turn at least, unless you've got a terrible opponent. Even a 3+ cover save won't keep you alive after two or three turns of that.

That is why mine start with 2 haemonculi. Oh no, even more points spent

Awww how did this turn into a hellion disscusion :p

so, I tried the Baron/wrack combo again. And aside from it being efective, it was also fun. With the combo in mind, setting objectives is easy . In the middle 12" away from where the baron will start the game in some cover, along with wracks in a venom (which I decided to paint dedicated to the grisley wracks) on turn 1 baron takes the pain token away on turn 2, where there is hopefully some dying going on.
Haemy is 50 points for a pain token that is not scoring, and can't take a transport. Yea you could take the 125 point kabalites with blaster, but this way you still get the venom, and a cheap pain token shinanigans