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Hey There,

I'm quite a newbie at 40k in general, and I switched to DE (from SM) only a month ago. I normally just play fun games with friends. Recently my friends have wanted to go to a local tournament. This is really my first attempt at an army list that will be meant for a tournament of any kind.

The tournament is to be 1500 points, I'm at 1498.

The List
- 5 Warriors in Venoms. Barebones. (3x)
- 7 Wyches with haywires in a Raider with flicker.
- 7 Wyches with haywires, and 1 hekatrix with Agonizer and PGL. Joined by a Haemy with Ago also. In a Raider with Flicker.
- 2 Beastmasters with 5 Khy and 4 Razorwings.
- Baron Sathonyx. Admittedly not sure where to put this guy. Just want him for his bones, mostly. Maybe his PGL and Cover too.
- 5 Trueborns all with ShardCards in a Venom with an extra Splinter Cannon and Nightshields.
- Ravager with Flickerfield filled to brim with DLs. (3X)

The Style
I want to run this as a shooty build with a couple of options. I love beasts and think point for point they are just phenomenal, so I threw some beasts in there. Also, they look incredibly cool.
I typically place beasts close up to the front and utilize them to mop up former passengers of transports. Usually my beasts and my upgraded Wyches draw the most fire by far.
It is definitely best to go first, but with enough terrain I'm confident going second.

My perceived strengths
- High mobility. Only thing not in a fast skimmer are the beasts.
- Lots of targets.
- Baron helps getting the alpha strike, which is hugely useful for this build (and really, any DE build IMO).
- Beasts draw significant fire or at the least add to target confusion with so many vehicles on the board. Beast unit looks fantastically powerful to enemies as a target and can draw 20 unsaved S5 or lower wounds and 5 S6 and higher with Khymeras. Also rely on increased cover saves if Baron is stationed with them. Point for point I think the beast unit is a powerful force and a great distraction if placed and used properly.
- Haywires are for taking down the inevitable land raider or heavy assaulting tank approaching an objective. I struggle with this one, but I still believe this is a strength. Those wyches cause panic against enemy heavy tanks, even if not used and just chilling behing a building 18 inches away. It is unfortunate that wyches don't get their 4+ save from an explosion.

My perceived weaknesses
- Warriors are admittedly purely for objective holding and require support from other teams/vehicles. At first I really wanted them to have blasters or something else to be more competitive, but it just seems so ineffective to equip them with 1 AT weapon. The chance that will do anything seems very slim
- Most units are in open topped transportation which tend to explode. Units without FnP particularly vulnerable to anhillation from a vehicle explosion. However, these vehicles are quite fast and should be used to stay away from danger.
- Reliance on vehicles. Basically, if I am in a game with a lot of lances/long range (30"+) S5s then I am screwed. If my skimmers are always in danger of being blown out of the sky, it severely limits my offensive tactics.
- Versatility. Most of the units are particular in use. The warriors can't hold an objective against fire, they are purely for capturing unless serious needed elsewhere. The ravagers are purely transport and lower armor killers. If the enemy targeted, for example, my AT units and succeeded, they could walk all over me with impunity.
- No heat rays. I love heat rays for their versatility and destructive power against any type of vehicle... but the whole concept of getting within 9" of an enemy unit is counter-intuitive to my entire build. Am I missing something here? Putting them in jetbikes would allow me to move away another 6 inches, but being a maximum of 15 inches away from a vehicle still seems rather dangerous for an expensive, single wound bike model, whose model mates are useless against vehicles.
- Low toughness of everything. This is kind of just how DE rolls, but str 6 anything (pretty much ANY heavy weapon) and the 1st pain token is worthless for most units. That's why I hesitate to rely on FnP.

What do you think?

I'm pretty new to this. I normally use ridiculous builds with crazy wargear because it's fun. I realize this list is in fact a little boring (especially by my standards) but I really would like to not lose straight-out.

Also, I'm torn about where to put the Baron and what to give my 2 Raiders (DLs or Disintegrators).

Thoughts?

Well... I've always thought that trueborns were not worth the points. Also, it seems that your unit sizes are all just so darn small, which=easy to kill. On an objective mission, against a competent player, they're gonna kill those warriors in like 2 seconds. I would maybe drop a ravager or two, drop the trueborns, and get more troops in raiders. I know then you have a lot less tank busting.... but you might lose from the start if you can't hold points. Anyways, that's my thoughts.

You've basically no AT fire power at this point level you want at least 20 dark light weapons particularly if you're going shooty.

The Baron is wasted in this list on his own he's dead and 105 points isn't worth it for the bones. He's a great character but only if you're going assaulty with plenty of hellions (which are actually very good in the new dex).

Your warrior squads do nothing of value. Blaster and a Raider gives you 2 AT weapons if you want to go that route.

All your Raiders should have dark lances. Disintegrators are handicapped by S5 meaning that tank hunting is right out (unless you're against other DE) and for TEQ/MEQ killing wounding on a 3+ means they don't outperform the DL by as much as you'd hope.

If you're going shooty why take Wyches at all? Or the beasts for that matter?

I think you need to look at your HQ choices as neither really benefits the army (Haemi would do more damage with Wracks and Baron is not being utilised at all). Then you need to get a bucket load more dark lances if you're going shooty (at 1500pts my assaulty list has 22 Dark Light weapons, shooty would have 32).

Trueborns are a lot of points for AI fire when warriors can do the job almost as well. Shardcarbine Trueborn should really only be in a Sliscus list.

So the only thing I like about your list is the 3 Ravagers. I really don't see the value to the list as a whole of any other selection or indeed the value individually of any other choice barring the beast masters (who are point for point pretty good if they can get there).




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also aren't your beasts illegal? Isn't it only 2 Razorwings for the the beastmaster and only 3 Kymerae?

Iandroid wrote:Well... I've always thought that trueborns were not worth the points. Also, it seems that your unit sizes are all just so darn small, which=easy to kill. On an objective mission, against a competent player, they're gonna kill those warriors in like 2 seconds. I would maybe drop a ravager or two, drop the trueborns, and get more troops in raiders. I know then you have a lot less tank busting.... but you might lose from the start if you can't hold points. Anyways, that's my thoughts.

thats probably the worst advice you can get.... When playing dark eldar you always need those 3 heavy support units. At this kind of points level you should not take wyches they are better for 2000 pts + many people play msu as it can be handy. Also keep the trueborn and give them blasters.

Just about every point of valid criticism has been put forth, but no one has mentioned the PGL on the Wyches. They already have plasma grenades and they don't really need defensive nades since most people will just shoot at them rather than assault.

While I don't think you need 20+ Darklight for casual games if you're going to a tourney then def stock up on those. Trueborn with Blasters are the way to go there. Finally I would like to throw in my support for the Disientgrator, they really aren't as bad as everyone says, having like 1-2 will not mess up your whole list.

solubilityconstant:

Welcome to 40k in general, welcome most certainly to Dark Eldar, and most of all, welcome to the idea of experimenting with competitive play. I'm about to write a lot of stuff, and I'll do my best to explain everything in the same terms that you've used. I also want to offer this disclaimer: I do have a huge ego. On the tournament circuit, I'm 56 wins and 2 losses with my Dark Eldar. They've been from California to Washington D.C. to Florida to Texas and most of the places in between playing against the best players I've been able to find anywhere. I've made friends, I've made enemies, some of them here on Dakka. I generally don't give advice to people on Dark Eldar. There are too many people offering what I consider to be useless advice, and I don't feel like spending my days arguing against what I consider to be stupid ideas. So I generally entertain general questions, occassional PMs, and shy away from discussing this stuff.

My point: I'm going to tell you what I think is good and what I think is bad. I have no doubt that some people are going to respond with bruised egos because I think their ideas are useless. I'm not diming anyone in particular out, just speaking from experience. I don't plan on sticking around to hash out, argue and name-call, resulting in a locked thread (that crap happens far too often with me). So I've put my laurels on the line, take them for what they are. I'm going to make my points, try helping you the best I can, but I won't be returning to defend my position against detractors - I get suspended often enough for telling stupid people to stop being stupid.

With all that said:

General Philosophy:
1. Dark Eldar are a glass cannon. They're meant to strike hard, strike fast, but don't have the tools to withstand return fire / counter assaults. So they're an extremely powerful army, but very unforgiving.

2. Every model in a Dark Eldar army should have a purpose, and ablative wounds should NEVER be one of them. A unit of 5 warriors is meant to hold an objective. 5 warriors is also the minimum squad size. Six warriors is not better than five warriors, nor is seven warriors better than five warriors. Every additional model and expenditure of points that you put into something that is not created, honed, and visualized to kill something is a waste of points. I'll get back to this with your warrior squads in particular later.

3. Heat Lances: You're not missing anything. In the old codex, reavers had a better save, could take more special weapons (3 reavers with two blasters)...and were *still* borderline not worth using. They were a filler unit to bring a distraction unit to the table to turbo-boost up the side of the table and maybe snipe out a tank as a distraction, or to turbo-boost around the table near the end of the game to annoy and contest objectives. Reavers are even worse in the new codex. They're weaker, require double the unit size to get the same number of weapons, and the single weapon that would make them interesting is just as you called it - too dangerous and expensive to competitively consider. There's an alternative methods of heat lance delivery, but none of them do it effectively or efficiently when comparing to other means of disposing of tanks in your arsenal.

4. Versatility: I firmly believe that every unit in a Dark Eldar army should, if at all possible, have a dual role. 5 warriors with a single blaster inside a venom with dual splinter cannons is a great example. That's a transport killer. Its a land raider killer. And its *also* effective (both the unit inside and vehicle) against every variety of infantry from MEQs to GEQs to terminators to Monstrous Creatures to Star Gods. You can't do much about creating dual purpose roles for Ravagers - they're lances. They shoot vehicles until there are no more (or MCs if there are no vehicles), then start sniping at ICs, terminators, etc.

5. Reliance on Vehicles: This is *not* a weakness, it is a strength. Lances are 36", Splinter Cannons are 36", and ultimately, blasters are 18" weapons that can be fired after a 12" move and a 2" disembarkation, making them effectively a 33" weapon. You outrange pretty much everything except for missiles, autocannons, and railguns when you consider mobility as part of your firepower. Yes...bolters can theoretically pop a raider. But all of your weapons outrange bolters. And since you have flickerfields, you literally have 33% more vehicles than you paid for.

6. Open-topped: Don't worry about it. WHen an open-topped vehicle explodes, its a STR3 hit on the passengers, or 4+ to wound your models....and that's what you have required minimum sized units for. 5 warriors with a blaster means 4 models die before you have to worry about losing its best weapon. Haemonculi make wyches get Feel No Pain, making them great raider companions. More on this later again.

Your List:
1. Baron Sathonyx is a great HQ choice. I love him for the +1 to go first if nothing else. It wins me the roll to go first quite often. You're not sure where to put him - the obvious answer is that since he's jump infantry and can't be embarked, put him with the only unit that you have on foot: Your beasts. You can freely move him about in the movement phase - whether an IC is attached to a unit or not is dictated by their respective positioning to the unit at the beginning and at the end of the phase - which means that you can move the Baron around and through the unit to get him where you want him (away from potential threats, towards threats, etc). On the plus side, he has the HUGE advantage of giving the beasts +1 cover, and even MORE huge....offensive and defensive grenades. The only downside is that he's not cavalry and doesn't have the same 12" charge that the beasts do. You always move at the speed of the slowest model...so where the beasts would assault 2d6, pick the highest x2, the Baron (being an IC) gets 3d6. So your assault range with the Baron attached is 3d6, pick the highest. You've got a pretty good chance of getting 5-6" of assault range. And if you're not going to be able to get the Baron and friends into an assault (something you'll learn to eyeball with practice), you can detach the Baron and send him either into cover, away from threats, or to go pick on something (probably a vehicle) by himself. And if you can't get into assault.....well, you can sit in cover with a 3+ cover save and defensive grenades. The Baron and Kymerae are I6 and the Razorwings are I5, so you'll probably still be going first (or simultaneously).

2. Your beast unit is illegal. Each beastmaster (0-4) can take 0-5 Khymerae, 0-2 Razorwing Flocks, or 0-1 Clawed Fiend. You'll have to add one more Beastmaster to get 5 Khymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks. You should do it though. With the Baron along to give them grenades and stealth, these guys are fearsome. And with rending 6 attacks on the charge per model for razorwings, you can pop vehicles too! =D

3. Ravagers: Presuming that your entry (Ravager with Flickerfield filled to brim with DLs. 3x) means that you have three units of triple lance ravagers, and not one ravager with 3 dark lances, you're on the right track. I firmly believe that *every* competitive Dark Eldar list should start with three triple lance ravagers and go from there in whatever direction they want. I definitely do *not* encourage you to use disintegrators. They are an awful choice. In the old codex a disintegrator was STR7 AP2, small blast. Three blast templates per vehicle that could kill terminators, or in a pinch try opening up a rhino/razorback here and there. They were pimp. I used them and relied on other things for anti-tank. Now....they're basically the old submunition round without the cool template. STR5 AP2 isn't worth wasting a heavy support slot on when EVERY GUN IN YOUR FETHING ARMY is poisoned. Terminators these days are packing stormshields on both arms, a spare on their back, and extras in the land raider in case anyone forgot to bring a storm shield for a 3+ invul save. Volume of fire is what brings down terminators, not quality shots. Against Monstrous Creatures, you have STR8 AP2 lances or volume of fire from splinter weapons - there's simply no niche for disintegrators to fill that can't be filled somewhere else by a weapon with more general purpose. And when it comes down to it, while you can put blasters all over an army, the single best source of anti-tank is *always* going to come from the triple lances per ravager. Don't compromise this for anything. Start every list with three of them.

4. Did I see Nightshields somewhere? No? I thought I did. Don't ever take them. Ever. They are useless. There are about three weapons across ALL codices that the nightshield will give you utility against. Either it already outranges you by 12" and could care less that you have Nightshields (autocannons, missiles, etc), or is mounted on a platform that can return fire even if you're at 36" and nightshielded (multi-lasers, heavy bolters, lascannons, etc). Bolters, assault cannons and meltas. Oh noes. Totally screwed with them ha! Well, melta doesn't need help cracking an open-topped transport with the second D6, and if you're letting guys get up to melta range, you're already doing something wrong. Simply not worth the points. Don't do it.

5. You have three units of Warriors in Venoms for objective grabbing. Give them LETHALITY! Objective grabbing is what you do when your opponent has been crafty enough that you're not going to get to table them. 5x Warriors with a blaster inside a venom that has a second splinter cannon. Now you have the means of not only laying waste to the contents of any transport you open, but you have the ability to explode those transports in the first place. It cost you 25 more points to turn this objective holder into a lethal unit. Tactically, I could never recommend you taking an army from a codex designed to be a lethal instrument and assigning some of it to a non-lethal duty. Every piece of your army should be designed to maim, mutilate, explode, wreck, torture and enslave.

6. Wyches: They are tie-up units like beasts; STR3 non power weapons isn't scaring anyone off, but with a 4+ invulnerable save and a potential 4+ FNP depending on your configuration and HQ selection, they can sit in combat with things more expensive and deadly than them for some time and even win. Haywire grenades make you lethal against ANY vehicle (not to mention being your best and only competitive selection for dealing with both Monoliths and Blessed Hull Land Raiders), and FNP gives you survivability to get through raider explosions and the results of your haywire handiwork. 7....is just an awkward number. Kick it up to nine, and add a haemonculi. If that means you have to drop the other unit of wyches, do it.

7. Speaking of your second unit of wyches....hekatrix with an agonizer and a PGL joined by a haemy with an agonizer in a raider with a flickerfield....PHEW! Haemonculi might have the ability to take close combat weapons, but that doesn't mean that you SHOULD....especially when they're T3 with a 6+ armour save and an IC that can be targeted separately in close combat. My favorite haemonculi weapon of all time, the ultimate equalizer: The Shattershard. Take a toughness test, and if you fail, remove the model from play. Easier to kill Eldrad with a shattershard than with a crucible of malediction. Even better, the fact that it calls out each of the models touched by the shattershard means that you are literally playing a game of flamer sniper. Drop a shattershard template over a unit of ork boyz, touch the Nob and the KFF Big Mek with it, and those two models (and the other models you've touched with the flame template) take toughness tests or are removed from play. 500 point unit of terminators....every 5 or 6 is a model removed from play. Independent Characters, powerfists, Eternal Warrior, doesn't matter - remove it from the table. =D If you're packing multiple haemonculi and you want to wargear them out, drop a liquifier on the others so that they can stay in the raider/venom after their attached unit goes to cause its own trouble. Just adding extra threat, extra distraction units, too many things for an enemy to deal with.

8. And finally, trueborn. Trueborn should be like taking extra ravagers. And this is where I saw those Nightshields at. Drop those. Your trueborn are pimped out for infantry killing, but as you've noted in your weaknesses, it isn't infantry that scares you, its your tanks getting shot out of the sky. Aside from Ravagers, trueborn are your next best threat. 4 Trueborn with 4 blasters, or 3 trueborn with 3 blasters. You move 12", disembark them into cover somewhere, and open up on a vehicle. Its literally like having 6 ravagers in your army. Let the anti-infantry duty be executed by your volume of fire splinter cannons and splinter rifles on your no-longer useless warriors. 6" move, rapid fire from a venom, rinse and repeat. Pack as much anti-tank as you can into your army. If you run out of tanks, don't worry that you're not going to have enough to deal with infantry - because the infantry are not NEARLY as threatening to you as the tanks.

Personally, if I go second, I reserve everything. Between 12" moves and 36" guns, I can range the whole board - so whether I go first or second...*I* get the alpha-strike.

*Edit*

Since this is where I'm compiling my DE advice, pasting in most of something I wrote elsewhere.

1. Look up Ketara, search his "threads created" and look at the Unit Analysis he did for Dark Eldar. I don't agree with all of it, but its a great start.

2. Most importantly, remember this: DE are perhaps the *most* unforgiving army in 40k. A space wolf rookie can put an army on the table, and do well with it, even if they make mistakes. A DE rookie cannot. It is an *extremely* powerful army, but requires an extremely competent general to pilot. I can't begin to quote you statistics like 90% or 99% or anything, but almost every Dark Eldar player I've met in person, and most of those I've met online fail to achieve with their Dark Eldar because they're simply not good enough. Either not good enough to write a competent list, not good enough to play a competent list effectively, or a combination of both.

So for YOU who plays a BA army that can't mishap its deep-strikes because of gyrostabilizers, and who plays a Kan-wall that simply marches forward 6", takes 4+ cover against everything (I love a Kan wall; I play Orks too)....I ask you this: Do you make mistakes on the table? Are you a fast learner? If you're a good player and not prone to "Ah crap, I shouldn't have done that" then try out DE. If the idea that a mistake might just cost you the game is a painful idea, then its not the army for you. Here's some common ones:

-Aw crap, enemy reserves coming in and my ravagers are angled towards the middle of the board, presenting my rear armour to the flanks.
-Aw craw, I mean to flat out to get a cover save.
-Aw crap, I thought I'd be able to get into assault range.
-Aw crap, I should have shot that instead.

Those are deadly. Understanding target and threat priority, vehicular positioning, assault reach....if an enemy does something or shoots at something that you weren't expecting, you did something wrong. =p

If you've got those things covered, you will murder people with Dark Eldar. Its to the point where there are exactly *two* army builds in the entire 40k universe give me pause. One of them I fear, one of them I just respect.

SO! Nothing like your current armies. Much more powerful if you have the ability to put the reigns to that power and drive it well.

Not wanting to steal his thunder but I actually agree with pretty much everything Dash has said. The only difference is that I me value in night shields particularly on raiders carrying assault troops as they can bone melta and rapidfire guns. But even then not convinced it is worth the 10 points.

i'm also not convincede that every DE list needs 3 Ravagers. But that is an excellent starting point. Upgrading a Ravager or 2 to one of the flyers is not out of the question. But I do agree you should take all 3 HS slots everytime and it should be with at least Ravagers if not the Bomber or Fighter (though at 1500 the Ravagers are for me the only viable option due to tight points). Also agree that Trueborn are vital a Ravager back up.

Also agree, also agree... Yeah basically what I said at the start I agree with pretty much everything he said.

Sorry Dash you can't argue with me

Void Raven Bomber, Razorwing Fighter....

It comes down to this: With such bountiful splinter fire available everywhere in the entire army, the Razorwing's missiles can end up being redundant, and then you have to ask whether the additional anti-infantry is worth sacrificing the anti-tank ability.

With the Void Raven Bomber....is a STR9 Lance *really* better than three STR8 lances? I don't think so.

Absolutely listen to all Dash's advice, works a charm.

When I first started playing DE with the new dex, I got absolutely destroyed! (I think mainly due to my stubborn belief that I WOULD make Reavers work) My lists got tabled sometimes within 3/4 turns, everything I tried was simply too fragile.

This is the list I run now, and since the day I PM'd Dash for advice and wrote it, I'm undefeated! It even beat (granted narrowly) my best mates uber space wolf tourney list, which was previously undefeatable in our gaming circle!

Haemonculus (shattershard) 65pts
9 Wyches (Haywire Grenades, razorflails, raider, flickerfield) 190pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
5 Warriors (Blaster, venom, extra splinter cannon) 125pts
4 Trueborn (4 Blasters, venom, extra splinter cannon) 173pts
4 Beastmasters (10 Khymera, 4 razorwings) 228pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts
Ravager (triple lance, flickerfield) 115pts

Anyway, that's what I run! Advice from personnel experience, keep the Haemonculus in the raider till he finds a suitable target for the shattershard (he shouldn't be in combat, took me a few games to realise that!). And I absolutely second Dash's advice about reserving if your going second. Never try and weather a shooty army's onslaught in the belief you'll be able to fight back- you won't. (I learnt that the hard way) Hit hard when you arrive, and keep enemy firepower suppressed. Keep the beasts as counter assualt. Have 'em sit behind cover till your enemy sends forward a nasty assualt unit, believe it or not, that 228pt unit can take insane amounts of punishment while still dishing out some hurt! (paticularly if you get lucky with rending roles!)

Anyway, listen to Dash and you won't go far wrong! All hail Supreme Overlord Dash!

There are several things in Dash's post I disagree with, but different strokes and all that. I will say though that 95% of what is said is fundamentally true.

I also agree with dash, but Razorwings are really worth their points, voidravens however are not really.

Dashofpepper wrote:Void Raven Bomber, Razorwing Fighter....

It comes down to this: With such bountiful splinter fire available everywhere in the entire army, the Razorwing's missiles can end up being redundant, and then you have to ask whether the additional anti-infantry is worth sacrificing the anti-tank ability.

With the Void Raven Bomber....is a STR9 Lance *really* better than three STR8 lances? I don't think so.

Actually, two S9 lances are (statistically speaking) almost identical to three S8 lances. It's just a question of whether or not you want to spend the premium in points to lose open topped and gain the 36" Flat Out move & Void Bomb combination and the ability to Deepstrike, should you want to. If you add missiles and/or other upgrades, the Bomber gets really expensive really fast.

That being said, I've had really good luck with the Fighter. I have to struggle to make up the anti-tank elsewhere in my list, but it's been worth it so far, for me. Haha...at one point against a CSM player, halfway through a game, my opponent says, "How many points is that thing?"

I would add this in as a general rule of play for Dark Eldar

Play to your opponent's weaknesses and always fight unfair. A Straightup slugfest with an opponent is a sure way to lose stuff.

I generally agree with Dash's assessment.

I will point out one thing with Reavers that I do like. The ability to turbo boost AND get your attacks AND in the movement phase. 36" range means this is true anti-personnel anywhere on the board. Coupled with caltrops a unit of 6 bikes can potentially take out a MC or cripple it significantly. This can mean an early pain token for either the bikes or a follow up splinter unit.

The element of adding pressure on enemy movement and deployment to take into account the lethal nature of bladevane attacks increases the opponents opportunity to make mistakes. Don't undervalue that.

Dashofpepper wrote:If you've got those things covered, you will murder people with Dark Eldar. Its to the point where there are exactly *two* army builds in the entire 40k universe give me pause. One of them I fear, one of them I just respect.

I would be interested in hearing more about this if you wouldn't mind expounding. I don't have any desire to play DE, but I am very interested in beating them.