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I still have no idea what any of those thing do. or how they would be used against me, or what combinations I have to be careful of..

I have never seen the book, and it is not for sale anywhere in my state.

Brother-Captain Pancho wrote:@Fetterkey
You must be talking about a different book(s). The Hades Breaching drill is not in this one. The Manticore platform is not in it, The Deathstorm is not in it either. The Lucius is, but it is nerfed quite a bit (higher cost, fast attack slot, chance the unit coming out of it immobilizes itself). I think you are talking about something different. I have played against the Lucious several times, it honestly isn't as good as people think it will be. It is good, but hardly game breaking. There are many ways to play around it.

@thread
Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition is the newest 40K supplement. In it, there are specific units that are marked as Warhammer 40,00 approved. We are ONLY talking about this book, not any of the other IA books.

Ah. The error was on your end, then, since you had said Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2, which is a different book from Imperial Armor Apocalypse Second Edition (another reason why these things are confusing and problematic for gamers).

Unfortunately, this book is in fact substantially more unbalanced-- it contains the most broken unit in any FW book, the Land Raider Achilles. The Land Raider Achilles, for those of you who don't know, is a Land Raider that has twin-linked multi-melta sponsons and a Thunderfire cannon in the heavy bolter spot. It can only transport 6 models and doesn't have assault ramps, but it is immune to Lance and Melta and all penetrating hits suffer -1 on the Damage chart. Many armies legitimately cannot kill it at all aside from inflicting tons of glancing damage results. Further, the LRAchilles can somehow take a Siege Shield, making its one weakness-- getting immobilized in terrain-- completely impotent. It's basically the melta bunker from hell. All you have to do is put five Scouts in it and drive onto objectives, ignoring the opponent's firepower completely.

The only competitive army that I know of that has a plausible way of dealing with it when it is commanded by a good player, aside from Tau, is Necron Scarab Farm lists-- and even then, good screening tactics can mitigate the Scarab rush, and the fact that the thing packs a Thunderfire Cannon should give them serious pause, since that means it can fire 4 blasts per turn, any unsaved wound from which IDs 2 Scarab bases.

You could specifically ban the LRAchilles, but then you have to look at other things, and you're going case-by-case, and now it's back to the bad old days of tons of supplements, not all of which are legal at all events. Forge World rules just aren't ready for prime time. While they are definitely getting better in their rules writing, there are still big issues there. The money and availability issues are just the icing on the cake-- ultimately, requiring players to know rules from 50 dollar books not sold in most stores and not allowed in most games is just not good policy.

While I wish you good luck with your event-- I had a great time last year-- if this FW book is legal I will not be attending.

As a previous BAO attendee who would like to attend again, I must wholeheartedly agree with Fetterkey.

What can my IG army do against a Land Raider achilles? It is immune to melta, autocannons can't scrach it, all legitimate pens get -1.
What can me DE army do against a Land Raider achilles? It is immune to lance, so I literally cannot penetrating hit it. The only way I would destroy it would be to roll a million 6s to pen and 5-6s to damage.

@blackmoor
Anyone playing the units, must bring the rules. We're also doing a unit by unit breakdown on or blog. Also, poke around online, you'll find a pdf pretty easily.

@ph3ar
Hiw does ig kill an achilles? Manticore. Demolisher. Basilisk, psyker battle squad, Las cannons, etc. You have lots of options. It is not that big of a deal, honestly.

@fetterkey
It is a 325 point tank, base. In a 1750 game, with 5 objectives per mission, and at leasr another 75-100 points to make it scoring and give it dozer blades, you're talking about a 400 to 425 point investmemt to hold a single objective.

You guys, it really isn't as good as you all make it out to be. we will listen to all appeals, and we will continue to test things, but if anyone chooses to not to come because of the off chance you may play against one unit in a tournament of 128 players and you feel that single unit will beat your entire army, then I honestly don't know what to tell you! Haha, pull a unit at random from the grey knight book, it's probably less balanced. Remember, you don't have to kill a unit to beat it. You play around it, just like a deathstar unit from any other book.

Ya guys, There is honestly no game breaking units in this book. We have all sat down and talked about each individual unit. Before deciding if we were going to allow them. Everything is priced the way it should be.

And again guys, these units are now legal to begin with. And by no means game breaking. If anyone is going to be using a Forgeworld model, they must have the actual model at hand. No conversions.

disdainful wrote:The listing on the website says that the Saturday event for Warmachine is 50 points, but uses Casual 35 point time limits.

So... the 50 point tournament uses the round time limits of a casual 35-point tournament, which is... the round time limit of a 50 point tournament?

In all seriousness, why are you using casual time limits for any of the events? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have what amounts to an eternity to conduct my turn, but that only widens the gap between players who are experienced with timed turns and those who are not.

-Dis.

I must say I agree with Dis on this. Warmahordes is a game that uses time limits. Playing with in those time constraints is part of being good at the game, an event as large as the BAO which is trying to become the preeminent GT style event on the West Coast really shouldn't be making the games easier. Using the relaxed time limits in a tournament of this size and competitive focus is like riding a bike with the training wheels on. YMMV but I can't say I would want to play in a Warmahordes event on this level that uses the relaxed time limits.

Thanks for your input on the warmahordes event guys, I will talk to the to for that event and see what he has to say about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as for the imperial armor book, let us know if you are oppossed to it via pm. If enough people are against it, we'll drop it. At the end of the day, we want a fun event, we just feel that on the whole the book is an improvement.

So let us know what you're thinking, and remember, this is still the bao: an event that is sure to be well run, fun a great weekend of gaming.

Reecius wrote:Thanks for your input on the warmahordes event guys, I will talk to the to for that event and see what he has to say about it.

Thanks Reece, it is much appreciated. We sent a few guys to the WM event last year and we might be rolling up again (I really want to go but GAMA is the following week so I don't know if I can handle back-to-back trips) and some clarification would be great.

While you're asking about it... what's up with the Tier tournament? Requiring at least Tier 2 for a 50-point event I can see, but at 35 it really sledgehammers some casters right out of the running. It sounds good, but some casters have softball second tier requirements (like, 'Take the Greatbears'... um, yes please!), and some have very restrictive ones.

Just bought my 40k singles ticket. I'm very excited to be there.

Reecius wrote:@ph3ar
Hiw does ig kill an achilles? Manticore. Demolisher. Basilisk, psyker battle squad, Las cannons, etc. You have lots of options. It is not that big of a deal, honestly.

The Manticore is decent against it, but even still it gets a -1 on the pen chart.

The odds of a Manticore getting a hit or low value deviation, and then penning, and destroying, a LRA is ~3.7%.
The odds of a lascannon killing a LRA is ~0.9%. Yes, that is less than one percent.

For reference, a melta shot within melta distance has a 25% chance of destroying a normal Land Raider. This is what people usually use to kill Land Raiders.
Do you know how many meltas most armies have, to deal with AV14? A lot. Do you know how common manticores, demolishers, and such are? Very uncommon.

And even if people have non-lance, non-melta ways to kill Land Raiders (much more rare), they have half the chance to kill it, thanks to the -1 to all pens rule.



It's like the old 4 or more Land Raider Daemonhunters "I hope you maxed out on melta!" list, except instead of the Imperial/Chaos, Eldars, and Tau being the only ones that can handle it, only Tau can handle it.

What? You are allowing the super over-powered Grey Knights!? That's it, I'm not coming!

italiaplaya wrote:If anyone is going to be using a Forgeworld model, they must have the actual model at hand. No conversions.

This actually makes using the FW rules much worse, since FW stuff is silly expensive. Personally, I use a lot of FW stuff-- but I know people who don't have the funds to do so. Allowing FW units only with FW models, unlike any other unit in the game, makes it so that people can be "priced out" of making the lists they want. You could argue that this can happen in normal 40k as well, but it's much less likely given the wide variety of substitute models out there. Saying "no substitutes allowed" for the most expensive models that are now legal in your event seems truly misguided.

Fetterkey wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:If anyone is going to be using a Forgeworld model, they must have the actual model at hand. No conversions.

This actually makes using the FW rules much worse, since FW stuff is silly expensive. Personally, I use a lot of FW stuff-- but I know people who don't have the funds to do so. Allowing FW units only with FW models, unlike any other unit in the game, makes it so that people can be "priced out" of making the lists they want. You could argue that this can happen in normal 40k as well, but it's much less likely given the wide variety of substitute models out there. Saying "no substitutes allowed" for the most expensive models that are now legal in your event seems truly misguided.

Double agreed.

I dont know or want to know what is in the apoc books im going up against. Surprises are nice, killing something that is supposed to blindside your army and have no knowledge of how to counter it is nicer.

I think people are looking at this the wrong way with IA Apoc 2nd ed books involved. Instead of just refusing to play because you don't know what a few new units do; look at it as an opportunity to play against new and different things.
As stated, the player HAS to have the actual AI book with them. Just ask to read the rules prior to the start of the game, and have the player clearly identify the FW unit in question.

As to the “Not playing because I haven’t read the rules yet”:
How many players out there knows exactly what a Chaos Spawn does, or an IG Ogryn?
So, you'll refuse to play someone because they set out a unit or 2 of Spawn or some Ogryn?
What if someone asked you to play the new Necron book the day it came out? You'd tell them no cause you haven't memorized it yet?
Sounds like weak sauce to me.

The sickest thing in the IA Apoc 2nd ed is the Achilles Raider, and after a Glance or 2, and the Thunder Fire cannon is gone, it's really not that bad. (But it’s still sick.)
Everything else has a comparable unit already in the game, just google the FW units a bit and you'll find all the info you need.
Again, this should be an opportunity to challenge yourself as a player against new units, and new tactics.
Not just cry, and refuse to participate because you’ll be seeing things on the table top for the first time.

That's a very noble sentiment, but no one wants to play against something they are not familiar with at the top tables of a tournament. Or at any table for that matter.
If a player doesn't know a unit or ability out of a common codex and has not practiced against it, then that's the players fault. But if all of a sudden a bunch of new units are brought in out of a book that's not commonly available, then that kinda hoses the players who already aren't familiar with it, while providing those that are with a big advantage.

@fetterkey and ph3ar
You guys are making the argument that a single unit is so overpowering that it's mere potential presence means you won't come to a tournament you both had fun at and were planning on attending again, but if they are allowed, you want people to be able to proxy them, therefore increasing the odds that you'd play against them....

Haha, tell me you see the fallacy in that logic.

My intention isn't to offend, it is just funny to me as it appears to be an irrational argument.

We appreciate everyone's input. Our goal is not to force our opinions on anyone, but to make the most fun event we can. If people feel that this will make the event less fun, then we wont do it. We as a team were all very excited at how much this book would shake up the meta and reinvigorate the game, but that's us.

We're going to send an email to all previous attendees and put it to a straight vote. We hear the voices expressed here and understand all concerns, but we also can't allow the opinions of a vocal few to impact the event as a whole.

If the people want ia apoc second ed, we'll allow it, if not, we won't. Simple! And I love simplicity.

cricketofdeth wrote:I think people are looking at this the wrong way with IA Apoc 2nd ed books involved. Instead of just refusing to play because you don't know what a few new units do; look at it as an opportunity to play against new and different things.
As stated, the player HAS to have the actual AI book with them. Just ask to read the rules prior to the start of the game, and have the player clearly identify the FW unit in question.

So when you are playing in a tournament where time is already a factor, your want to take a good chunk of time to go over these new units. Not only that, but since they are not out there for much debate you have no idea what the "issues" are concerning these units rules and use. GW is very bad at rules writing, and I imagine that FW is not much better, so who knows if your opponent is trying to pull something over on you?

As to the “Not playing because I haven’t read the rules yet”:
How many players out there knows exactly what a Chaos Spawn does, or an IG Ogryn?
So, you'll refuse to play someone because they set out a unit or 2 of Spawn or some Ogryn?
What if someone asked you to play the new Necron book the day it came out? You'd tell them no cause you haven't memorized it yet?
Sounds like weak sauce to me.

I know how Choas spawn work, and I know what Ogryn do. I am currently learning about Necrons and there tricks. If some one asked me to play the Necron codex the day after it came out in a friendly game I would say ok. But there is a reason why tournaments have a 1 month waiting period before you can use a new codex.

The sickest thing in the IA Apoc 2nd ed is the Achilles Raider, and after a Glance or 2, and the Thunder Fire cannon is gone, it's really not that bad. (But it’s still sick.)

Just a glance or two? Is that all? Most everyone has strength 8 weapons, and you will need to roll a '6' just to glance, and then a '6' to knock off a weapon. Good luck with that.

Everything else has a comparable unit already in the game, just google the FW units a bit and you'll find all the info you need.
Again, this should be an opportunity to challenge yourself as a player against new units, and new tactics.
Not just cry, and refuse to participate because you’ll be seeing things on the table top for the first time.

To get to this event I will have to drive for 11 hours (each way) and pay hundreds of dollars for a hotel and travel expenses. I do not want to invest this kind of time an money to be blindsided by rules and units that I have no idea what they can do. If I lived in the Bay Area and I wanted to just roll out of bed and have a bit of fun that would be different, but I don't..

The US's ETC team was looking for a good event on the west coast to be a qualifier for the ETC team. They want a broader cross representation of the country and want to have a quality event out west, and I guess this is not going to be it.

The Lucious Drop Pods are worse than the Achilles and those are in the book as well. Hi2u Mr BA Dreadnaught dropping in and assaulting on turn one. I think the broke as hell deathwind pod is in there too, as well as the transport option big mech deathrolla wagon.... Also, it adds stuff to the already powerful armies with little to nothing for the weaker xenos books.

Seriously, I think its a bad idea to allow IA Apoc to be used in the main GT. The team tourney, fine, but not the GT. Remember what Nichols did with just two Lucious pods at the BSB last year?

Anyhow, this matters little to me as I will be playing fantasy if I can make it this year. Is it in the same fairground facility as last time?

Reecius wrote:... We as a team were all very excited at how much this book would shake up the meta and reinvigorate the game, but that's us.

Sadly, it can't really do that until it is more widely available. Trust me, I'm all for supplemental material to 40k mixing the pot since the standard bandwagon-rut cycle has gotten a little staid, but until I can sell it in my shop and anyone can come buy it with ease, it won't be anything more than a curiosity with the potential to create negative play experiences, particularly in a competitive environment.

But, what do I know, I should be bitching pointlessly about the Warmachine tournament no one cares about. Sorry!

-Dis.

Not that what I say carries any weight whatsoever, but I've been following this debate and to me the argument of "the unit information is not widely available, so we can't prepare for it" rings a bit hollow. The TOs are already planning to do an evaluation of every unit in the book. Their blog is directly linked on the site that has the rules for the tournament. Additionally, anyone can order a copy of the book (you can always go in with a couple of friends if all you plan to do is know thy enemy). And, of course, there are other options to getting access to the book. So if people are truly blind-sided by this, then they did not put in any effort what-so-ever to gain intel on these units. Now, that does not mean that there are not valid concerns about some of the units in this book. I just think that if people are getting blind-sided by these units, it's their own fault just as much as it's the fault of someone that doesn't put the effort into knowing the other Codex units out there.

Reading about something online almost never prepares you for the real world game interaction.

That being said, I still think there's plenty of time to figure it out. There just needs to be a definite ruling on the inclusion of the IA book one way or the other so that people don't waste their money ordering this stuff only to find that it can no longer be used.

Phazael wrote:The Lucious Drop Pods are worse than the Achilles and those are in the book as well. Hi2u Mr BA Dreadnaught dropping in and assaulting on turn one. I think the broke as hell deathwind pod is in there too, as well as the transport option big mech deathrolla wagon.... Also, it adds stuff to the already powerful armies with little to nothing for the weaker xenos books.

Seriously, I think its a bad idea to allow IA Apoc to be used in the main GT. The team tourney, fine, but not the GT. Remember what Nichols did with just two Lucious pods at the BSB last year?

Anyhow, this matters little to me as I will be playing fantasy if I can make it this year. Is it in the same fairground facility as last time?

Just as a heads up it's been mentioned multiple times that BA's can't take the Lucius anymore and that it has had some significant changes to it.

@Blackmoor

The Achilles only reduces the extra -1 from penning hits so a glancing 5 would weapons destroy and 6 would immobolize.

@Thread

Honestly I don't have a huge problem with most of the items mentioned. I do see some armies struggling heavily against Achilles (DE mostly). For this reason I'd vote no on at least this unit. To be fair a lot of non-tournament heavy players that attend (and there will be many) will have no idea what this thing is. And putting it on the table will ruin a DE players day. We're not talking in this case about how the top end of players deal with things. We're talking about the majority of your attending gamer base.

On the overall I pick up the Imperial Armour books because I like the reads and they have some neat stuff. If they were legal I'd probably have added more FW to my stuff instead of entire new armies. Ask the player base and see what they think. However I know you guys are going for 40k at it's base and adding in FW takes away from that. If I lived in Cali I'd be there either way and walking away with the big prize

Phazael wrote:The Lucious Drop Pods are worse than the Achilles and those are in the book as well. Hi2u Mr BA Dreadnaught dropping in and assaulting on turn one. I think the broke as hell deathwind pod is in there too, as well as the transport option big mech deathrolla wagon.... Also, it adds stuff to the already powerful armies with little to nothing for the weaker xenos books.

Seriously, I think its a bad idea to allow IA Apoc to be used in the main GT. The team tourney, fine, but not the GT. Remember what Nichols did with just two Lucious pods at the BSB last year?

Anyhow, this matters little to me as I will be playing fantasy if I can make it this year. Is it in the same fairground facility as last time?

Seems like a lot of people are making blind statements without actually looking thru the book. All the units that have been "allowed" have been changed to become more balanced whether thru some changes in there rules and/or there point cost.

Such as the Lur. Drop pod. It is a fast attack choice that only Space Marines, Black Templars, Space wolves, and Dark Angels can take. So no BA Talon Dreads coming out of it. Also, if you choice to assault out of it, you have to roll a dangerous terrain test. Giving you a 1 in 6 chance to become immobilized.

The deathwing pod, and big mech deathrolla wagon were not added either.

Every army got around 1 to 3 new units.

I think the issue is that reality does not match the theory. In theory, more units = more variety = more fun.

In reality it works more like this:

No one takes the crappy, or so, so units, because it's unlikely anyone will take the time convert / buy the FW version just to have a meh unit. So you've effectively limited the pool of actual new units that people will use.

If there's a great/underpriced option people either 1. spam it (because they are allowed to convert) or 2. only one or two guys actually get to take advantage of the unit, because they spent the extra money to have the FW option on rare occasions (e.g. a handful of tournaments a year).

Because of the perception of FW and the limited availability / experience, people do not feel fairly defeated if they lose to those units. It's a perception thing, but at the end of the day it's not fun to lose to something because you didn't realize it could do XYZ, because you only had a few minutes to read its rules before the game.


I think events like Adepticon's Apoc works, because in that instance, everything is SO wacky that the very point of the event is to see crazy units and play against things you've never seen. But when you add a tiny bit of crazy to an event, it typically creates a large negative without a large enough benefit in return. You need to go all or nothing. A tournament about using wacky Apoc style units or a tournament about the core units.

Blackmoor wrote:

To get to this event I will have to drive for 11 hours (each way) and pay hundreds of dollars for a hotel and travel expenses. I do not want to invest this kind of time an money to be blindsided by rules and units that I have no idea what they can do. If I lived in the Bay Area and I wanted to just roll out of bed and have a bit of fun that would be different, but I don't..

The US's ETC team was looking for a good event on the west coast to be a qualifier for the ETC team. They want a broader cross representation of the country and want to have a quality event out west, and I guess this is not going to be it.

You know three months in advance what rules will be used, how can you be blindsided?

Maybe I need to brush up on the LR achilles rules, but I would think that DE could just haywire grenade the thing to death. I'm bringing DE to the tournament and I don't mind FW stuff. I'll be honest I'd rather not see an Achilles across the table but it would never stop me from enjoying or attending an event.

@the_Stormrider

Yes, you could possibly haywire it to death. But it's extremely unlikely unless you put haywire grenades on a ton of different wych units. The odds are extremely low you'd kill it and if you take less than 3-4 units of haywire armed units it's extremely likely you'll lose the haywire unit long before it's useful. Overall it's a very, very ugly unit to include in a tournament where you'd like to have more variety of codexes appearing.

Outside of that unit everything else seems reasonable but I will admit to neither owning that particular book or having pirated a copy

Honestly this thing isn't that bad. It's significantly more than a regular LR and loses it's weapons and gets immobilized exactly the same on a glance. I can tell you that I don't worry as much about the pens on my LR's as the lucky glances that immobilize them in my deployment zone.

@Ozy

I think that's an oversimplification. While I agree that it's possible to glance it to death not all armies are designed like imperial ones and can't take 18+ ML's or 12 TL St8 Shots supported by tons of rending st7. It gets much dicier for Necrons, Dark Eldar, and to an extent Tyranids.

Naturally it's just my two cents but I can see some major issues with quite a few builds. That said I think the model is bitchin and given a chance to use one I'd buy one in a heartbeat