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AustonT wrote:
Because beneath the surface, lies the future.

I'll take a stab at it. That's Seaquest DSV, isn't it?

I am of the opinion that governmental space research should be shifted to the military. As other posters have pointed out, shortly there will be several countries in space- India, China, Russia, and the US. As soon as something profitable is found to be done up there, we're going to see an interplanetary gold rush as countries attempt to capitalize and control the resource. Right now, we just want space to float our satellites- and space is plentiful.

The instant we have a thing we are trying to harvest or exploit, and not a goal like visit the moon, we'll see the first space war. For that, we'll need space weaponry, and the longer that is kept in the military's aegis and out of the private sector the longer we can prevent our eventual enemies from gaining access to our technology.

Conversely, if we are not the first to research or locate the exploitable resource, having a ready set of space ready weaponry will allow us to gain access to it through diplomatic or direct means.

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.


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Doctadeth wrote:Humans and the cosmos are linked, inextrictably. We are of the stars, and we should seek to explore the stars. Even just harnessing the economic values of asteroids and comets would help out humanity, not to mention the scientific benefits of research to mars and to the stars. Heck, we are running out of resources like sand through our fingers.

If governments don't realise that the earth's resources are vastly more limited than they think, soon it's road warrior time. There are no second chances, no reprieves. Either we progress out of earth orbit, or we stay and stagnate.

People want to get off the earth, not just metaphorically, but literally. We need the space, the resources and the science.

The problem with your argument is that it costs vastly more resources to get those offworld resources. Sci Fi's great but a complete misread of the costs.

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.

How?

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.

How?

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/nebula

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.

How?

Dont even start the thread down that road.. It's a recipe for disaster.

Simply accept the fact that no matter what evidence you pull out, no matter how convincing it is and no matter how obvious it is to everyone else, a large percentage of people will believe things simply due to the power of belief. Its essentially the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalala I cant hear you!"

"Why did God used to do gak load of miracles all the time, but he doesn't do them any more, and why does he only "cure" occasional people with minor ailments when he could just regrow somebodys leg live on CNN?"

"I will believe! I will believe! I will believe!"


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Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.

How?

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/nebula

Worst evidence ever. What is more likely? That every image there (taken thanks to Science) was caused by natural science that we understand a great deal about anyway.

Or magic.

Magical magic by a magical man in a magical sky.

See thats the problem with you believers and nonbelievers. You're stuck with your petty little concepts of what God and think yourselves superior. Mere human concepts and perceptions do not hold for what God is. After all, how can mere man describe the universe except in simple, childlike phrases.


http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/nebula/pr2005002f/

Frazzled wrote:See thats the problem with you believers and nonbelievers. You're stuck with your petty little concepts of what God and think yourselves superior. Mere human concepts and perceptions do not hold for what God is. After all, how can mere man describe the universe except in simple, childlike phrases.

Im not stuck with petty concepts, and I dont think myself superior! Hey I've got no problem with Deism. If that's your bag, we've no need to argue. I've no issue with "God" as some sort of, unexplainable force or prime mover or what have you. Who knows what started everything?

What I care about is mother fethers knocking on my front door and pestering me, or telling me who I can and can't screw, or whether or not my sick Mother should be allowed to take some drugs to kill herself even though its only her and my Dads business, or if my sister is allowed an abortion even though they are her ovaries, or if im allowed to eat pork, or drink beer, and what have you.

I've no interest in talking about the idea of God because I don't worry about death and "his" existence isn't something I care about, God does or God doesnt, its no skin of my disinterested nose.

I'm not an atheist, I'm an anti-theist!

$$ is going to drive the exploration. If $$ can be found exploiting the moon for mineral resource then $$ will be spent/borrowed/bribe so more $$ can be made in the future. Reason why I'm using $$ is what drives the effort and not a certain symbol

What I care about is mother fethers knocking on my front door and pestering me, or telling me who I can and can't screw, or whether or not my sick Mother should be allowed to take some drugs to kill herself even though its only her and my Dads business, or if my sister is allowed an abortion even though they are her ovaries, or if im allowed to eat pork, or drink beer, and what have you.

You just want a nice (I know its painful to say this) French style secular state. I'm incredibly ok with that. Of course,t hen you have to get all the other busy bodies off you too. Welcome to the Libertarian Party. Room for one more.

Medium of Death wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Destroying Religion - If you want to finally crush religion, Space exploration is the answer.

Oh, I'm sorry, were these little green men not in the Bible?

I'd proffer the mysteries of space are eloquent examples actually.

How?

A sizable number of astronauts become religious due to their experiences in space. Space shows us how small we are, God is a good answer to that.

There you go. Space is the ultimate revelation of the Greatness of God. Well, that and chocolate cake.

Chocolet Boston Cream Cake......

Jihadin wrote:Chocolet Boston Cream Cake......

Chocolate Tuxedo cheescake. Ay Carumba!

Frazzled wrote:There you go. Space is the ultimate revelation of the Greatness of God. Well, that and chocolate cake.

The infinity of space leading men to seek God is a motive but not a reason, so I dont expect it to help with this:

mattyrm wrote:
Simply accept the fact that no matter what evidence you pull out, no matter how convincing it is and no matter how obvious it is to everyone else, a large percentage of people will believe things simply due to the power of belief. Its essentially the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalala I cant hear you!"

Which is another variant on 'lalalala I cant hear you!'

Orlanth wrote:

A sizable number of astronauts become religious due to their experiences in space. Space shows us how small we are, God is a good answer to that.

I don't buy that Orlanth. Source?

I mean, maybe they become a Deist of sorts. Ill say it again, ive no problem with the concept of a God, none at all. Maybe there is something beyond my understanding. But so what? Ive an issue with all the damn certainty that Religious people display.

Maybe they come back and believe in some sort of "higher power" after returning home from seeing the infinite reaches of space first hand, but I doubt they go from being disinterested in Religion like me to suddenly swigging the Jesus juice and get super impressed by some dubiously translated books.

And I bet that they all become Christians if they are American astronauts right? They don't fly into space and then suddenly go "feth! It was all Allah!"

Its not just space exploration, it's the jobs created, the inventions made and the horizons probed. I think that its not just exploring the stars for all mankind. It's helping mankind through making spacecraft, and actually helping out with the process.

The NASA shutdown resulting in thousands of jobless people, if those were rehired then you get a lot of collateral helpfullness with other people.

Migation of resources will also help. Outer space has virtually unlimited resources. Called asteroids and space gases.

Doctadeth wrote:Its not just space exploration, it's the jobs created, the inventions made and the horizons probed. I think that its not just exploring the stars for all mankind. It's helping mankind through making spacecraft, and actually helping out with the process.

The NASA shutdown resulting in thousands of jobless people, if those were rehired then you get a lot of collateral helpfullness with other people.

Migation of resources will also help. Outer space has virtually unlimited resources. Called asteroids and space gases.

A glorious example of [INSERT CORPORATE INDUSTRY] governmental complex.

Frazzled wrote:The problem with your argument is that it costs vastly more resources to get those offworld resources. Sci Fi's great but a complete misread of the costs.

Honestly, I think that's the biggest problem -- too many otherwise objective people and scientists etc wanting the Star Trek fantasy.

mattyrm wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
A sizable number of astronauts become religious due to their experiences in space. Space shows us how small we are, God is a good answer to that.

I don't buy that Orlanth. Source?

From memory, of (secular) televised interviews with NASA astronauts.

I just did a google search on 'christian' and 'astronaut' together, it dropped several names on the first page. See for yourself, not all sources will be creditable but there was a recurring pattern. Even so I remember two openly declared cases, and both indicated clearly that it was a noted phenomenon. I do suppose that several astronaut converts keep it to themselves.
Does NASA have a Christian 'bias', in Mercury most likely yes, as Mercury astronauts were All-American poster boys. However that means nominal Christian rather than active one, the same sort of Christian you claim to be matty aka Christian in broad cultural background. Still some later astronauts were unafraid to vocalize their faith choice, nortably Jim Lovell in most cases they were this way before first entering a live rocket, however still it has been noted that many came out of a capsule believing in God and I have no reason to disclaim their testimony.

mattyrm wrote:
And I bet that they all become Christians if they are American astronauts right? They don't fly into space and then suddenly go "feth! It was all Allah!"

I didnt have a problem with that.


Space impacted Soviet cosmonauts too, though a cosmonaut becoming a Christian would generally become a poor career move. Still some were known to have done so, there were rumours that Gagarin was among that number, but their most biographies place him as a closet Christian anyway.
In any event Gagarin was greatly moved by the experiences of his space flight, and not just by the experience of the procket journey but most of all by what he saw out of the capsule window:

Облетев Землю в корабле-спутнике, я увидел, как прекрасна наша планета. Люди, будем хранить и приумножать эту красоту, а не разрушать её!
Orbiting Earth in the spaceship, I saw how beautiful our planet is. People, let us preserve and increase this beauty, not destroy it!

Later he defended those words, though it is not too cynical to say it was likely his subsequent job to do so.

Now Gagarin is also quoted as having said "I looked and looked but I didn't see God." However that statement has been largely disputed, and those who know him say it was out of character thing for him to say. It is more likely a propaganda comment attributed to him at a later date.

Orlanth wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
A sizable number of astronauts become religious due to their experiences in space. Space shows us how small we are, God is a good answer to that.

I don't buy that Orlanth. Source?

From memory, of (secular) televised interviews with NASA astronauts.

I just did a google search on 'christian' and 'astronaut' together, it dropped several names on the first page. See for yourself, not all sources will be creditable but there was a recurring pattern. Even so I remember two openly declared cases, and both indicated clearly that it was a noted phenomenon. I do suppose that several astronaut converts keep it to themselves.
Does NASA have a Christian 'bias', in Mercury most likely yes, as Mercury astronauts were All-American poster boys. However that means nominal Christian rather than active one, the same sort of Christian you claim to be matty aka Christian in broad cultural background. Still some later astronauts were unafraid to vocalize their faith choice, nortably Jim Lovell in most cases they were this way before first entering a live rocket, however still it has been noted that many came out of a capsule believing in God and I have no reason to disclaim their testimony.

mattyrm wrote:
And I bet that they all become Christians if they are American astronauts right? They don't fly into space and then suddenly go "feth! It was all Allah!"

I didnt have a problem with that.


Space impacted Soviet cosmonauts too, though a cosmonaut becoming a Christian would generally become a poor career move. Still some were known to have done so, there were rumours that Gagarin was among that number, but their most biographies place him as a closet Christian anyway.
In any event Gagarin was greatly moved by the experiences of his space flight, and not just by the experience of the procket journey but most of all by what he saw out of the capsule window:

Облетев Землю в корабле-спутнике, я увидел, как прекрасна наша планета. Люди, будем хранить и приумножать эту красоту, а не разрушать её!
Orbiting Earth in the spaceship, I saw how beautiful our planet is. People, let us preserve and increase this beauty, not destroy it!

Later he defended those words, though it is not too cynical to say it was likely his subsequent job to do so.

Now Gagarin is also quoted as having said "I looked and looked but I didn't see God." However that statement has been largely disputed, and those who know him say it was out of character thing for him to say. It is more likely a propaganda comment attributed to him at a later date.

I absolutely am Christian in a broad cultural way, I even got Christened at St Marys up the road, although, my Dad isnt Religious either, I think it was just the "done thing" at the time.

Well.. or he wanted the piss up.

It's obviously not the type of thing you can prove or disprove, I'm happy to leave it at that and disagree. For myself, I don't see how you could go from being non Religious to Religious just because you go to space, but that's me.

As I said, I've really no issue with the whole Is there isn't there debate, it just doesn't interest me, I've never been afraid of death and I don't see the point in pondering it.

I have a real problem with people trying to force their views onto me though, and if most Religious people were like you and Manchu then I wouldn't be such an argumentative fether!

I think that astronauts become religious for the same reason soldiers tend to, "Please [insert higher being] don't let something happen to me.".

Speaking of space though, my friend said that if there was a chance he would join a space naval force and I told him that it would be a dumb move.

My explanation: "If you're on the ground you can run, if you're in the Navy you can swim, if you're in the Air Force you can eject, but if you're in space nobody can hear you scream."

I don't want to choose between space and the ocean. They're similar enough that doing both at once means they can trade ideas. The same is true for almost everything else. Pure science without a technology payoff doesn't exist because somewhere, someone is like "oh hey, this small problem is somewhat similar to what they faced designing the X capsule. They fixed that with Y design idea, let me do that"

There's a lot more than just big flashy gadgets. Lots of minute engineering work at NASA has benefited everyone.

Ocean first cause its a hostile environment. Learn from the ocean first then apply to outerspace...except when I die....I want to go out like a viking

Jihadin wrote:Ocean first cause its a hostile environment. Learn from the ocean first then apply to outerspace...except when I die....I want to go out like a viking

Thats what I'm doing for Ma and Pa this weekend.

Jihadin wrote:Ocean first cause its a hostile environment. Learn from the ocean first then apply to outerspace...except when I die....I want to go out like a viking

I'm still pretty sure if you do both at once, they synergise and get more benefit than one before the other.


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Like, imagine if we had designed all the way to the modern motorcycle before we made the first car. It would have taken longer overall to get where we are now because the two were not swapping design elements.

halonachos wrote:I think that astronauts become religious for the same reason soldiers tend to, "Please [insert higher being] don't let something happen to me.".

Mate, soldiers DON'T tend to. That "there are no atheists in foxholes!" line is just absolute nonsense but Americans like to quote it cos it sound's pretty cool. Most European (and a great many more Americans than you might think) soldiers aren't particularly Religious these days.

Its the way of the world, the more we learn, the less we need that crutch, and in 50 years time, I honestly think it's going the way of the dodo. In civilised educated countries anyway.

For myself, seeing the fethed up things that humanity is willing to do to each other with so little provocation kinda proves the opposite. If there is a theistic God, that sits and listens to each individuals prayers, well, I've no time for the Psycho.

What's "he" think when there's a gang of baby raper's hacking off everyone's limbs in a village in Sierra Leone? There is no good argument for a personal God that will sway me, and I've been to plenty of wars.

How about, there are only agnostics in foxholes?

You know, cos you have more important gak on your mind.

I like how people say things like 'we'll do it, we just can't afford to do it now.'

Well guess what? We are steadily burning through the resources to do it. At the current rates of INCREASE in consumption, I would question our ability to do it AT ALL if we don't get out there in the next hundred years, possibly even the next 50. After that, we are going to be far too caught up in figuring out how to feed, clothe, and house umpteen billion people, much less how to get them a decent standard of living. We'll likely have to trash the habitat in a desparate attempt to stave off mass starvation; a battle that can only be lost in the end when the habitat will no longer sustain our numbers. Then comes a total collapse, back to 'might makes right.' Once we get through that... well, then we're looking at the eqivalent of 1800 AD or so, but without the fossil fuels to bootstrap us up. Even getting plastics will require mining 20th century garbage dumps.

On the flip side, there is more energy than we could ever use on Earth availble from solar power alone. If solar cells aren't efficient enough (I belive currently solar cells require more energy to manufacture than they will generate over their productive life; this is why solar cell plants aren't powered by solar cells) the use reflectors to boil water and power steam generators. Need water for that? Pick a comet and chip a million tons off. Need metal? Lots of it floating around in the asteroids. Oxygen? Plenty, in the form of various oxides, also in the asteroids; refinement just takes power.

Yes, the startup costs are enormous relative to our 'spare' capacity. They are only going to get MORE expensive in the future.

Vulcan wrote:I like how people say things like 'we'll do it, we just can't afford to do it now.'

Well guess what? We are steadily burning through the resources to do it. At the current rates of INCREASE in consumption, I would question our ability to do it AT ALL if we don't get out there in the next hundred years, possibly even the next 50. After that, we are going to be far too caught up in figuring out how to feed, clothe, and house umpteen billion people, much less how to get them a decent standard of living. We'll likely have to trash the habitat in a desparate attempt to stave off mass starvation; a battle that can only be lost in the end when the habitat will no longer sustain our numbers. Then comes a total collapse, back to 'might makes right.' Once we get through that... well, then we're looking at the eqivalent of 1800 AD or so, but without the fossil fuels to bootstrap us up. Even getting plastics will require mining 20th century garbage dumps.

What scifi story did you get that from?

Okay, the endgame might be a bit over the top.

But I dare you to say we are expending less per person now than we were 20 years ago, and that there are less people in the world than there were 20 years ago.


And the trends on both are toward rapid growth.

Frazzled wrote:See thats the problem with you believers and nonbelievers. You're stuck with your petty little concepts of what God and think yourselves superior. Mere human concepts and perceptions do not hold for what God is. After all, how can mere man describe the universe except in simple, childlike phrases.


http://hubblesite.org/gallery/album/nebula/pr2005002f/

Poetry

Roses are red,
violets are blue
the pictures you linke to are awesome
and so are you