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ph34r wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:its not slots... its points

don't associate the division of points as "each unit must have x points"

Its more troops needs to have 4x points, and the others must have x points with one being 2x points.

For example in my last list it only has 3 troop choices but was allocated the 4 sections of points. Similarly the HS slot has only one allocation of points but 2 HS choices.

Same problem. Having the same points in elites/fast/HQ/heavy is arbitrary and for most good lists does not apply.

I don't believe the point was to make a rigid structure but rather a flexible idea to build the list.

Start with an equal allotment, and then as you build the list decide if the points are used effectively with the list in a given slot. If not, redistribute those points into the 'floater' pool, and move on.

Just a thought.

Talamare wrote:I play Tau

Even if I were to take every FOC slot of maxed Fire Warriors, I wouldnt reach 800 points without doing some stupid useless upgrades

are you giving them a devilfish to float around in? cause those overpriced floating bubbles can really jack up your points.

Yes your rule of nine is rather flawed. For one thing, I could spend 205 pts in fast attack and that would give me 3 piranhas yes, but 205 pts in heavy support wouldn't buy me enough broadsides, or it would buy me too much in the way of a single hammerhead

It's good for beginners to discover what's good and sucky in their codex, but why go to all that trouble when they could just look elsewhere on dakka lol. I mean if they're seeing this here on dakka chances are they already saw the dozens of threads on their armies...

Battlewagon Bash at 2250:

1 division = 250

HQ 340/250
Elite 375/250
Troops 870/1000
Fast Attack 245/250
Heavy Support 420/500

Kan Wall at 1500

1 division = 165

HQ 170/165
Elite 150/165
Troops 640/660
Fast Attack 105/165
Heavy Support 435/330
Note that there are perfectly viable kan wall builds which fit the mold much less.

I think that this system sometimes accidentally works because it is somewhat compatible with the way GW designes their codices. However, the FOC has no bearing whatsoever on whether an army works or not. Best example is the already named fast attack slot. Many armies have utterly useless junk here, some armies work perfectly fine without fielding any fast attack at all.

lledwey wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

Iago wrote:First Place 4 "sections" (820pts) into troops.

Then 1 "section" (205pts) in each of your Heavy, Fast, Elites and HQ sections.

This leaves 1 "section" that you may do what ever you want with.

Help me with the math there. 4+1+1=9?

1 each in heavy, fast, elite, hq, plus one floater. That is 4+1+1+1+1+1=9.

Well, nice approach. However, some armies have mediocre elite or fast-attack choices and so better spend the points elsewhere.
The basic question is why 9 slots and why 4 troop slots?
Your system is supposed to scale.

Its not slots, its sections. of points... your 4 "sections" worth of points could be all 6 slots.

Cheers!

The system is a nice starting point for a list because it makes you think about a large amount of troops (necessary in 2/3rds of games) and balancing points when you begin a list.
This is a much better starting point than if you flip through the codex, pick some cool expensive toys and try to build a list around them.
Obviously not the be all end all, but a nice system for beginners to get the list mind working.

Ok, so. As I said I would here is the first one that I have made, and yes, it is with Tau 1850pts:

HQ-
Shas'el(Missilepod, Plasma, Targeting Array, HW Miltitracker) - 97pts

Shas'el(Missilepod, Plasma, Targeting Array, HW Miltitracker) - 97pts

Elites/
3 Crisis Suits(3xmissilepod, 3xplasma,3xmulti-tracker) - 186pts

Troops/
11 FW/s with Shasui - 120pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

11 FW/s with Shasui - 120pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

10 FW/s - 100pts
Devilfish(Disrupt Pod, Multitracker)- 95pts

16 Kroot, one upgraded to a shaper - 133pts

Fast Attack:
8 Pathfinders w/Shas'ui - 106pts
Devilfish as above - 95pts

Heavy Support:
2 Broadsides w/ advanced stabilization systems(team leader with blacksun filter&targetlock) - 173pts
2 Broadsides w/ advances stabilization systems (team leader with blacksun filter and target lock)- 173pts
Hammerhead(Railgun, Disruptpods,BurstCannon,Multitracker)-165pts

So:
HQ - 194/205
Elites - 186/205
Troops - 758/820
Fast- 201/205
Heavy- 511/410 (all floaters here)

So, here is the first example. It is not exactly within the parameters, hence why this is just a guideline but it does have a good feel to it. With some more playtesting the tweaking of the gear and points would be adjusted. (it would be easy to drop a devilfish from a FW squad so that they could use the pathfinder devilfish, then those points could go into more elite crisis suits) also the weapon systems are variable, I used the most expensive lay out, but a TL missle pod system on the suits would allow for more points to be spent in other places, like more suits. But the groundwork is there. As for the firewarriors and kroot, they are not the "best" units, but with a bit of tweaking you could easily have 2 units of 10 kroot and smaller firewarrior squads, or have them with the carbines so that they can remain mobile and at 18" away from the enemy.

Just thoughts.

Cheers!

Any comments? Any others want to test it out on their personal lists?

This does not work on C:SM mainly because you don't want to have a bunch of tacs in your list, since you can combat squad them anyway and they're really not good when taken in large numbers AND you want to fill the other slots with the goodies. 820 points on an 1850 list will give you 40 tac marines in rhinos.... that's an awful lot.

It's total trash.
You have to take an HQ, and you want to have enough scoring units to be able to win. Then spend points things on units that aren't troops or HQ.

Saying spend 205 or 410 +/- 5 points on HQ isn't a good guideline.

-Matt

Well, its up to 205 pts... so anything from 50-205... the key is to not spend too much on HQ>

The 'Law of 9's' would never fit in my Tau Mech List. Ich, I don't even want to think about dropping one of my Hammerheads for something so obtuse.

@ KplKeegan: What is your regular tau list?

Iago wrote:Well, its up to 205 pts... so anything from 50-205... the key is to not spend too much on HQ>

It's not really a law if you can choose to modify or ignore it in the designing of a list.

-Matt

You could make that Tau list much much better by trimming down the massively bloated Troops section, fixing the Fast section, maybe changing the Heavy section (its ok, 3 x 2 Broadsides is better imo) and doubling the number of Crisis Suits you have. It would completely screw up the percentage system, but you would still end up with a similar number of scoring units but have a massive increase in firepower.

Tau troops are terrible and Fire Warriors are worse than Kroot, you want 2 durable/reliable scoring options + a few more fragile ones at most. This means 2 units of 6 Fire Warriors, only 1 of which needs a transport (the other steals the Pathfinders one). You reserve them if you are really worried about them dying, but in practice if people focus on them (assuming you have Disruption Pods) you should just be able to blast them off the table with the rest of your army. Kroot can always jump in the Devilfish as well.
The rest of your troop units should be small units of Kroot, you don't need a Shaper since you can just attach your HQs if you are really worried about Ld (which again is rarely an issue since most people aren't going to be shooting them over suits and in assaults you want to flee straight away so want low Ld). The only good 'upgrade' for them are Hounds, since they are cheap and easy ways of bulking out the unit to bubblewrap better.
Then you trim the Pathfinders down to 6 strong (or just change them to 3 solo Piranhas), maybe change the the Hammerhead to 2 more Broadsides and you are left with 200 odd points. This gives you enough for another unit of Crisis suits with basically any loadout, in practice you would change the 2 units of 3 for 3 units of 2 as well, but point wise that makes no difference. This makes the army much better in basically every area, its has the same number of scoring units, hits much harder and is far more durable overall since it has more bubblewrap.

Right. So as promised here is a CSM list:
HQ/
Deamon Prince, Wings, Slaanesh, Doombolt - 145pts
Elites/
Termicide Squad- 3 with combi weapons (take your pick), 1 powerfist - 115

Termicide Squad- 3 with combi weapons (take your pick), 1 powerfist - 115
Troops/
10 Plague Marines with 2 MG, PF, in rhino - 325
10 CSM, 2 PG IoCG, Rhino - 225
10 CSM, 2 MG IoCG, Rhino - 215
10 Lesser Deamons
Fast Attack/
3 Bikes 2 MG - 119pts
Heavy/
3 x 2Oblits - 450pts

There is tonnes of room to optimize the list. And it still has some of the "competitive" choices that CSM love, plague marines, oblits, termicides.
On another note, the mind can be as restricting as any arbitrary template.

Ewww... bikes in a csm list? No thanks, we all figured out a long time ago that nothing in the fast attack slots in that codex is worth a second glance.

True. It is the mainstream "norm" to bash certain builds and units. I am well aware that bikes are a nono for competitive play... but out of all the choices I prefer them to any of the others.