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As an aside, Lynata's guess is wrong, in that Living Saints are tested stringently for psychic powers.

The only time one wasn't tested before being declared, they turned out to be a traitor who was using psychic powers to control the masses for Tzeentch. The Inquisition will not see this happen again-- Living Saint is the most powerful and influential title the Imperium can ever bestow upon an individual until the day the Emperor Himself gets off his throne and speaks once more.

So actually declared living saints are obviously notoriously rare. Those that are merely psykers instead of bona fide living saints are sent to be sanctioned or sacrificed depending on their strength of will and usefulness to the Imperium.

Melissia wrote:As an aside, Lynata's guess is wrong, in that Living Saints are tested stringently for psychic powers.

Of course this would render the Ordo Malleus' criticism entirely void, which is why I interpret the given material in that these tests discern psyker from saint - not identifying psychic potential of the sort that would be wielded by, say, a Chaos God. For all we know, it is the psyker gene that the Imperium looks for in such tests (at least I have yet to see any other term being mentioned in this context), yet I doubt that a possession like I think it occurs with a Living Saint would rewrite the vessel's DNA.

In short: If the genetic sample comes up clean, the Living Saint will be greenlighted.

I think I prefer this interpretation over the existence of some obscure "truly divine power" originating from the Emperor, especially as we know he's "just" a psyker, too. Albeit a very powerful one. Call me old-fashioned, but divine magic and "true gods" are things that I tend to associate more with the sword-and-sorcery fantasy cliché.

Of course, I could still be totally wrong about all this, and I am sure there are countless other theories that have an explanation just as good.

Macharius is dead.. No longer a living saint

Is there even a Genetic test for psykerness? It's not that simple afaik.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is there even a Genetic test for psykerness? It's not that simple afaik.

dunno about the psyker gene tests but according to fluff like the Scourge the Herectic novel, a psyker is usually needed to find another psyker or psy reactive material like wraithbone.

There are apparently pariah gene testing though according to Atlas Inferno however and it appears that at least parts of the adeptus mechanicus biologis corps are actively studying how to manufacture more of these.

Makes me wonder if that girl, Lorii, from the Last Chancers may have had some of those genes thrown in as all the other genes from the other sources their battalion was made from should have been quite good...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is there even a Genetic test for psykerness? It's not that simple afaik.

Psychic potential is genetic, as is Blank potential (which is as rare amongst those with abnormal psychic presence as psykers are rare amongst the population).

Think about it this way-- the Navigator Houses have basically bred a specific kind of psyker over countless generations.

Sekai wrote:Macharius is dead.. No longer a living saint

English Assassin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Saint isn't the same thing as a Living Saint. Macharius, being dead, is not a living saint.

Warhammer 40,000 doesn't really have a 'present', however. Besides, if Saint Sabbat can return from the grave, so can Ollannius Pius and the rest of the lads, particularly since they're probably 'Daemons of Law' in any case.

Could you at least try reading the thread before you post?

Actually all that's irrelevant, I don't think Macharius was declared a living saint, so he wasn't a living saint.

It's a title given by the Ecclesiarchy.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is there even a Genetic test for psykerness? It's not that simple afaik.

Psychic potential is genetic, as is Blank potential (which is as rare amongst those with abnormal psychic presence as psykers are rare amongst the population).

Think about it this way-- the Navigator Houses have basically bred a specific kind of psyker over countless generations.

They've bred a special type of mutant that really doesn't have anything to do with it. A psyker is usually needed to find another psyker but a very latent one may go unnoticed. Otherwise advanced planets would just genetically register their entire planet.

One old 40K comic I read was about an Inquisitor who thought some noble might be a psyker but had no proof so to be on the sure side he like tortured him for a week. Turns out he was a latent psyker. Ironically, if he hadn't done that he probably would have lived his whole life and died without knowing but instead he became a vessel for daemons because of the interogation. All in all a good days work as far as the Inquisitor was concerned.

The Inquistion ain't called the Inquistion for nothing. They use the time tested method of drowning or burning someone alive: if they die they die a good, honest Christian Imperial death. If not: kill 'em.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They've bred a special type of mutant

Exactly, a psyker.

Navigators aren't psykers they're navigators. Navigators can't do anything psykers can do and psykers can't do what navigators do.

How come you care?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Navigators aren't psykers

Yes, they are.

*flips open Rogue Trader rulebook*

Yep. Psykers. In game terms, they aren't considered psykers as their powers are not traditional psychic powers and do not have the same perils and such, but nonetheless, they are a window to the warp, much like the psyker is a doorway to the warp, and their powers draw upon the power of the warp to function.

Being able to kill someone with a glance? That's not an urban legend, but an actual navigator power that draws upon the energies of the warp to do it.

That sounds like you're proving they are not psykers. Anyway, I don't know why we are arguing this in the first place other than if you thought I was saying psykerness is not an inherited trait. I wasn't saying that. In my above anecdote the inquisitor suspected him of being a psyker because his family had a history of witchcraft. I'm saying I don't think there's a lab test for it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That sounds like you're proving they are not psykers.

It also says that Orks, for all game purposes, cannot be corrupted to Chaos, even though they have (rarely) in the lore.

Perils of the warp are a danger specific to psykers, and navigators do not suffer those dangers. Their psychic powers are filtered through their mutation, and while much, MUCH more limited than a psyker's power, are also that much safer to use. They aren't a psyker in game terms, but their powers draw upon the warp, just as psykers do, and unlike sorcerers, their power is inherent, genetic, much like psykers.

Two different kinds of the same thing. The psyker is a doorway to the warp, letting in the warp's power by opening the door, while the navigator is a window to the warp, filtering out the most harmful parts-- much as a window prevents a gust of wind from coming through where a door slightly ajar can be blown open by even a slight gust of wind unless something is holding it mostly shut..

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That sounds like you're proving they are not psykers.

It also says that Orks, for all game purposes, cannot be corrupted to Chaos, even though they have (rarely) in the lore.

Perils of the warp are a danger specific to psykers, and navigators do not suffer those dangers. Their psychic powers are filtered through their mutation, and while much, MUCH more limited than a psyker's power, are also that much safer to use. They aren't a psyker in game terms, but their powers draw upon the warp, just as psykers do, and unlike sorcerers, their power is inherent, genetic, much like psykers.

Two different kinds of the same thing. The psyker is a doorway to the warp, letting in the warp's power by opening the door, while the navigator is a window to the warp, filtering out the most harmful parts-- much as a window prevents a gust of wind from coming through where a door slightly ajar can be blown open by even a slight gust of wind unless something is holding it mostly shut..

The way you are saying "power" is as if they actually manipulate the world in some way (like a psychic power). They can merely look into the warp. The don't draw upon warp energy and channel it into realspace like a psyker. I'm afraid there's nothing that falt out says Navigators are psychics. They are a mutant sub-species. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Navigators

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The don't draw upon warp energy and channel it into realspace like a psyker.

Yes they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it:

Rogue Trader rulebook, page 179: "Navigators are not marked as psykers in the traditional sense within the Imperium, though they do have a connection to the warp and use its powers to fuel their abilities. For all game purposes, however, a Navigator is considered a psyker. This means that weapons, powers, and creatures that have special effects on a character that is a psyker will have similar effects on a Navigator character."

This is remarkably different from, say, Sororitas Acts of Faith, which are not considered psychic in any way including via in-game rules in tabletop, fluff, and in the dark heresy rpg (only in fan material are they thought of as such).

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The don't draw upon warp energy and channel it into realspace like a psyker.

Yes they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found it:

Rogue Trader rulebook, page 179: "Navigators are not marked as psykers in the traditional sense within the Imperium, though they do have a connection to the warp and use its powers to fuel their abilities. For all game purposes, however, a Navigator is considered a psyker. This means that weapons, powers, and creatures that have special effects on a character that is a psyker will have similar effects on a Navigator character."

This is remarkably different from, say, Sororitas Acts of Faith, which are not considered psychic in any way including via in-game rules in tabletop, fluff, and in the dark heresy rpg (only in fan material are they thought of as such).

I don't know. I'm reading Deathwatch right now and I find FFG does make a lot of mistakes. They keep saying the IoM is only 2/3 of the galaxy. Afaik it's always been 80%+. As they say though, they are not considered psykers by the Imperium. Only, within the mechanics of the game are they a psyker. I suppose it is plausible that they are suceptible to anti-psyker weapons becasue f their special nature but I'm not convinced that that in itself is proof of them being a psyker.

In the background they really do not act as psykers. For example all psykers can affect warp effects. In the HH books an astropath (a true psyker) can at least attempt to hold back a daemonic incursion with some abracadabra. A navigator can't.

Astropaths usually have their brains explode in the case of a Daemonic invasion, same goes for Navigators... Astropaths are communication psykers. Navigators are...Navigation psykers.

What's the point here? They have warp based powers from birth that most of the population does not. They're psykers.

BrainDeleted wrote:Astropaths usually have their brains explode in the case of a Daemonic invasion, same goes for Navigators... Astropaths are communication psykers. Navigators are...Navigation psykers.

What's the point here? They have warp based powers from birth that most of the population does not. They're psykers.

No they don't. Astropaths have high daemonic resistance because of the soul-binding.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Astropaths usually have their brains explode in the case of a Daemonic invasion, same goes for Navigators... Astropaths are communication psykers. Navigators are...Navigation psykers.

What's the point here? They have warp based powers from birth that most of the population does not. They're psykers.

No they don't. Astropaths have high daemonic resistance because of the soul-binding.

And Navigators are not psykers. They are more like mutants with a third eye which sees in the warp. They possess no psyker powers at all.

Ok. I can cite you example of this for days. Let us begin.

Codex Chaos Daemons wrote:Archeodiviners of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica arrived to investigate what had become of Toreus and the three billion souls who had lived there. As soon as they reached the surface, the psykers were overwhelmed by the residual Chaos tainting the planet. One went mad and attacked his fellows; he was only stopped when his head was chopped off. (Grimdark) Two others perished miserably, their bodies aging and rotting as if centuries passed with every day. (Grimdarker) The remaining three were driven insane over the following days as they were assailed by visions of what had befallen the world. To this day Inquisitors pore over the transcripts of the archeodivners' lunatic ravings and sobbing moans, trying to glean as much knowledge as possible on the foul spawn of the warp. (Grimdarkest)

For reference, the Adeptus Astra Telepathica is the organization that trains and soul binds all psykers including Astropaths.

EDIT: It's not a psykic power to see the warp and somehow understand a small portion of it? Gee. The Navigator gene is a manipulation of the psyker gene which was undertaken during the Dark Age of Technology. /argument.

Moving back onto topic......

English Assassin wrote:Sebastian Thor

Doesn't have a head anymore

Wow, a post whining about there not being a MALE model of something - now I've seen it all!

I don't see anything wrong with females having something unique to them in 40k - especially when EVERY space marine is male.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Astropaths usually have their brains explode in the case of a Daemonic invasion, same goes for Navigators... Astropaths are communication psykers. Navigators are...Navigation psykers.

What's the point here? They have warp based powers from birth that most of the population does not. They're psykers.

No they don't. Astropaths have high daemonic resistance because of the soul-binding.

And Navigators are not psykers. They are more like mutants with a third eye which sees in the warp. They possess no psyker powers at all.

Other than this third eye which can see into the warp...

White Dwarf 140
The eye has other powers too, although these are employed far more rarely and are the subject of some mystique. These powers develop with the Navigator's experience of the warp, so that they are most developed of all in the Heirs Apparent. The uncovered stare of a Navigator can kill a man, and that of an Heir Apparent is said to ward off even the daemonic creatures of the warp.

Rival Navigators sometimes fight using the power of their eyes to blast each other - such open conflicts are rare but spectacular. It is also said that the eye of a Navigator has prophetic powers and that it can literally see into the future. Navigators are very reluctant to talk about their powers and it may well be that only the Paternova understands the full potential of a Navigator's abilities.

Their third eye seems to grant them some psychic capability but without the third eye they wouldn't have any powers apparently.

For all the information & background you need regarding the Navis Nobilite, I advise you to check Graham McNeill's article on the Navis Nobilite from the Warhammer 40k Specialist Game Inquisitor.

In short: Yes they can channel the warp through their eye into reality but are limited in what they can do with it. Whilst their eye acts like a window, they can, from time to time, open it to let a bit of 'air' in.

Navigators navigate by determining the position of a psychic beacon created by an uberpsyker who eats other psykers.

I'm puzzled how anyone could think that the Navigator gene is not a psychic mutation as well.

Sparks: Awesome article, I haven't seen that one before. Thanks for the link!

Ah, from that article, too:

"The Navigator can manipulate the tides of the Immaterium to affect time in the temporal universe. The Navigator may only use this power on himself, allowing him to roll for all his actions again, after all his actions have been performed, but before any other character performs theirs (in effect having another turn straight after his actual turn) exactly as if it was his normal turn. The only exception is that he does not get to use additional psychic powers with any additional actions."

While Macharius was never titled a "Living Saint", he did experience a miraculous resurrection, and is considered, at least by millions of Imperial citizens, a vessel of the God-Emperor's divine will.

Navigators, psykers? Bet your arse they are. They open their third eye in your face, you get an unobstructed view into the Warp and your head explodes.... or you go mad and swallow your bolt pistol. Take your pick.

Astropaths *have* to be soul-bound. They're the weakest form of viable psyker. Any other, weaker psyker found by the Imperium ends up as lunch for the God-Emperor. These little runties are the postmen of the 40k universe, and spend the majority of their time sending and receiving messages that, from what we can tell, appear to be rebuses written by a schizophrenic on a serious acid binge.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:And Navigators are not psykers. They are more like mutants with a third eye which sees in the warp. They possess no psyker powers at all.

Yes they do.

For example, they can open their third eye and zap someone with the power of the warp.

Using warp energy.

Like a psyker.

Navigators are psykers. Their psychic ability is filtered through their mutation, making it much less dangerous to use, but also much more limited. But it's still psychic ability.