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Technically fluff wise, I know male living saints probably exist somewhere but who are they and are any around currently (M41) ? how come there's no models for them?

For the same reason there are no models for female Imperial Guardsmen.

The army with the closest ties to the Ecclesiarcy is the Sisters. At the point when they were 'Witchhunters' it may have been possible to have a male saint. Now that they are back to having their army named 'Sisters of Battle', I wouldn't count on it. Maybe in the next Grey Knight codex.

Off the top of my head, Olannius Pius, Dolan, Sebastian Thor and Lord Commander Solar Macharius are all canonical male saints. As to why there are no models, I'd presume the answer is simply that being girls is the Sisters of Battle's principal distinction in an otherwise all-male setting, hence the sole living saint model is likewise.

Who's Dolan?

There was also Saint Kirodus, who served under Saint Sabbat (being beatified himself later)

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Who's Dolan?

Dolan Chirosius: If I recall, Cardinal Bucharis nailed him to a door on Galathamor during the Plague of Unbelief. I guess that if you want to be a saint, you have to put up with that sort of thing.

Edit: also, now I come to think of it, an Ollannius Pius-as-Living Saint conversion would damned cool. Despite not playing Space Nuns, I may have to give it a try.

English Assassin wrote:Off the top of my head, Olannius Pius, Dolan, Sebastian Thor and Lord Commander Solar Macharius are all canonical male saints. As to why there are no models, I'd presume the answer is simply that being girls is the Sisters of Battle's principal distinction in an otherwise all-male setting, hence the sole living saint model is likewise.

Lord Solar Macharius


Funny story, I saw this this morning while browsing the collectors section of Imperial Guard on the GW website. Solar Macharius... so I guess there IS a male living saint model

Ah, so there is. Our next challenge is to find a good living saint model.

lol No kidding. Looks like he's just going for a brisk walk when all of a sudden he needs to pull his bolt pistol out.

"La de da... nice day... whoa heretic..." *pulls gun*

lol good find. I didn't think of that guy at all. Is he still legal to play as anything? I still have an old 2nd edition IG codex

You could probably use him as a 'Creed' replacement.

If that model didn't have the laurels on the helm, I'd rather like it.

As for male living, an important difference, saints? They exist, they should exist but because the Codex's are written with each army in mind, they're not going to give the Sisters a male living saint as a special character. Perhaps someone will write a BL book one day with a male living saint in it.

Saint isn't the same thing as a Living Saint. Macharius, being dead, is not a living saint.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Saint isn't the same thing as a Living Saint. Macharius, being dead, is not a living saint.

Warhammer 40,000 doesn't really have a 'present', however. Besides, if Saint Sabbat can return from the grave, so can Ollannius Pius and the rest of the lads, particularly since they're probably 'Daemons of Law' in any case.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Saint isn't the same thing as a Living Saint.

Important difference right here.

To clarify, here's a bit from the 3E WH 'dex, which had a special "Living Saint" textbox in the faction introduction, separate from Celestine's own entry:

"The greatest heroes of the Adepta Sororitas may, in the most exceptional of circumstances, be proclaimed Living Saints. This ascension is likely to occur only a handful of times in a millennium, and is the cause of great rejoicing across all worlds of the Imperium.

Before an individual can be declared a Living Saint, a joint conclave of the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy must first affirm that the declaration is true, and the individual just and pure. Some of these convocations have been known to last many years, with debate raging back and forth between the various factions until agreement is reached. Needless to say, the most earnest advocates of the beatification are to be found amongst the Thorians. This faction of the Inquisition believe that the great saint Sebastian Thor was in fact a vessel through which the Emperor took a direct hand in the course of history, and that other examples of such 'avatars' are to be found amongst the teeming billions of Mankind. Others, notably members of the Ordo Malleus, oppose such theories, seeing in them the threat of domination from the denizens of the Warp.

A Living Saint is an avenging angel, a terrible and wondrous being to witness, for they shine with the purest of light, and bring death and destruction to the impure. It is also the case that one who burns twice as bright burns half as long, for no human can wield such power indefinitely. Hence the title 'Living Saint' - for at her ascension, the individual is already martyred, her death a self-fulfilling prophesy."

In short, the reason why there are no known male Living Saints is quite simply because few people live lifes as dedicated and humble as the Sisters (see the thread about their non-existing "off-duty time" for further quotes on this subject), though there are some males way back in Imperial history for which a similar case could be made (Thor, Dolan).

Because, according to Matt Ward, Sisters of Battle faith is the biggest in the Imperium.
It is so big that only Sister of Battle could became Living Saint, every other faction don't have that great faith in the Emperor - even Grey Knights.

On the serious side, because really noone has grater faith or devotion like Sisterhood. So maybe Emperor is grating them grater favor then to other factions of the Imeprium ( hence the Act's of Faith ). The only one who rival them in a matter of faith are Grey Knights, and their souls goes to the Emperor when they die so...

+ everything that Lynata said, because she is the walking Lexicanum for Sisters.

Lynata: quite fair enough, and thank you for digging out the quotation, but it's still pretty apparent that it's just literary handwaving to cover an artistic decision by Citadel.

Coa: thanks for making Lynata's post seem all the more thoughtful and relevant by following it with a stream of drivel.

Does this chap not kind of count?

Isn't that guy supposed spirit of dead Blood Angels Primarch?

Brother Coa wrote:Isn't that guy supposed spirit of dead Blood Angels Primarch?

Well, no one knows for sure. There are many theories about it, including
1. The Sanguinor is a psychic construct which is given life by the collective resolve of the Blood Angels chapter.
2. He is Azkaellon, the last surviving the Sanguinary Guard member after the Horus Heresy. Some believe that the Emperor's divine power has preserved him through the millenia.
3. He is no other than Sanguinius himself, either his noble spirit or the Primarch himself by some strange twist of reality and time.

And yeah, he could be considered a saint, given his mysterious appearances and his unbelievable power.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Isn't that guy supposed spirit of dead Blood Angels Primarch?

Well, no one knows for sure. There are many theories about it, including
1. The Sanguinor is a psychic construct which is given life by the collective resolve of the Blood Angels chapter.
2. He is Azkaellon, the last surviving the Sanguinary Guard member after the Horus Heresy. Some believe that the Emperor's divine power has preserved him through the millenia.
3. He is no other than Sanguinius himself, either his noble spirit or the Primarch himself by some strange twist of reality and time.

And yeah, he could be considered a saint, given his mysterious appearances and his unbelievable power.

Well it depends:

1. A very powerful psyker.
2. He is still alive, so no.
3. He is not a saint - he is mini God.

To be a LIVING saint you must first die then resurect. And ability that only Sisters manage to do thus far.

The Living Saint may well just be a Psychic construct in the image of a Martyred Heroine, rather than the Heroine herself.

Lynata wrote: Hence the title 'Living Saint' - for at her ascension, the individual is already martyred, her death a self-fulfilling prophesy."

You don't have to die to be a Living Saint.

Castiel wrote:

Lynata wrote: Hence the title 'Living Saint' - for at her ascension, the individual is already martyred, her death a self-fulfilling prophesy."

You don't have to die to be a Living Saint.

You can became Living Saint only trough SACRIFICE and ASCENSION. Last time I checked you need ti die first to ascend ( except Chaos Lords ).

Keep in mind that - in addition to the "organic" requirements that make up such an individual - the Living Saint is also a "title" bestowed by a fallible bunch of humans in a process that often includes a fair deal of politics (or at least faction-based bias), too. That's not to say that this would overshadow the truth, but I'd deem it likely that the aforementioned conclave would find it far easier to confirm a Sororitas as a Living Saint than anyone else, simply because the Sororitas have the bonus of being known as His most devout worshippers, and anyone else would have to prove himself first, and be regarded with much more scepticism on the simple grounds of being an unknown element.

As far as death is concerned, I wouldn't say it is a requirement - it's just a really good sign of the Emperor's hand at work. When it comes to determining whether someone is a true Living Saint, a lot of abilities or achievements could be explained away as simple luck or false claims - but it's hard to argue with divine resurrection witnessed by an entire army.

Medium of Death wrote:The Living Saint may well just be a Psychic construct in the image of a Martyred Heroine, rather than the Heroine herself.

I've given the concept of a Living Saint some thought a year or so ago, and my theory is that a Living Saint could indeed be a psychic phenomenon - but in the sense of a warpspawned entity being born to "possess" one of the faithful. If we go by what GW wrote about the Chaos Gods, specifically the birth of Slaanesh, powerful emotions can result in the creation of an entity made up of and empowered by these feelings. Hope, despair and even dedication are feelings as well, and (just like religion, which acts as something for people to hold on to) are greatest in times of need. So it could be that in times of need, the collective turmoil of emotions felt by the masses of the faithful (Sisters, clergy, militias, soldiers, refugees) involved in some great conflict or crusade reach a critical mass where such a warp-spawned entity is manifested, immediately taking possession of the body of one of the most suitable vessels in the focal point and absorbing this faithful's knowledge and convictions to fill the empty void in itself, essentially creating a hybrid somewhere between man and "demon".

Needless to say, such a theory would be regarded as the uttermost heresy, as it is far more convenient that the Emperor somehow intervenes and acts through his servants - yet I feel that this twisted idea may not only be an entirely possible explanation, but also that it feels deliciously grimdark.

Just a thought.

Brother Coa wrote:Because, according to Matt Ward, Sisters of Battle faith is the biggest in the Imperium.

To be fair, this bit has been mentioned by GW since even before their 2E Codex. Given his apparent bias, I doubt Ward would have added it if it didn't already exist.

To be a LIVING saint you must first die then resurect. And ability that only Sisters manage to do thus far.

so.. Justicar Thawn should be a living saint? ( I still don't have a model for him!)

I've given the concept of a Living Saint some thought a year or so ago, and my theory is that a Living Saint could indeed be a psychic phenomenon - but in the sense of a warpspawned entity being born to "possess" one of the faithful. If we go by what GW wrote about the Chaos Gods, specifically the birth of Slaanesh, powerful emotions can result in the creation of an entity made up of and empowered by these feelings. Hope, despair and even dedication are feelings as well, and (just like religion, which acts as something for people to hold on to) are greatest in times of need. So it could be that in times of need, the collective turmoil of emotions felt by the masses of the faithful (Sisters, clergy, militias, soldiers, refugees) involved in some great conflict or crusade reach a critical mass where such a warp-spawned entity is manifested, immediately taking possession of the body of one of the most suitable vessels in the focal point and absorbing this faithful's knowledge and convictions to fill the empty void in itself, essentially creating a hybrid somewhere between man and "demon

Good point, I had a personal theroy along this line as we've seen from the old books like inquisition war, there are benign spirits in the warp as well. They are often destroyed or prey for the other deadly daemons but it would not be out of context to say that a benign spirit entity from the warp can also posess a person and would be attracted to the very pure of heart (possibly with latent psy talents) like a promotion to daemon prince for the other chaos gods but for other entities in the warp.

Sebastian Thor was probably a Living Saint (he was not given the title but still... his very presence calmed warp storms around him).

But basically Living Saints are declared by the Ecclesiarchy, investigated by the Inquisition, and are basically those whose holiness is so good, with purity and righteousness so strong that they have martyred themselves and are still alive to continue serving the Emperor. They're walking targets for the enemies of the Imperium. That the Sisters are most likely to become it shouldn't be any surprise considering the Sisters are the Ecclesiarchy's military force.

They are living embodiments of the Emperor's will. They are tested for psychic powers-- that is, they don't have any.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Who's Dolan?

A saint, not a living saint. Dolan Chirosius, from lexicanum:

During the Plague of Unbelief he went to the planet Gathalamor (galactically south-west of Terra) to demand its total surrender. However, Dolan was captured and forced into custody. Dolan was driven through the streets, chained and whipped with flails. Over an ordeal lasting over six months, he was constantly tortured, deprived of sleep, and had only a handful of water a day to live on. Yet all the while he remained defiant. Bucharis ordered a public trial of the upstart, charging him with blasphemy and heresy, along with treachery, sedition and rebellion for good measure. He wanted Dolan dead, but didn't want to provide the people with a martyr to rally behind. He had to force Dolan to submit, so that he could be killed, painfully and over a long period of time.

The trial was broadcast across all of Bucharis's domain. After five months, the prosecution had completed its case, and Dolan was allowed to present his defence - the trial had to appear fair after all. For days Dolan spoke; he inflamed countless planets against Bucharis, explaining Bucharis's tyranny and encouraging worlds to rise up in arms. At the end, Bucharis spoke. He said Dolan's own testimony had condemned him. Dolan was taken away to the dungeons. After eight months, Dolan had still not given in to the would-be Ecclesiarch's torturers. When he finally died, his body was maimed beyond recognition, and left to the wolves and vultures. The carrion never had their banquet: the Confessor's body disappeared soon after and was never found.

Bucharis's plan to shame Dolan backfired. In allowing the Confessor to speak, he allowed his message to spread further across the stars than it would ever have done otherwise. On the proclamation of Dolan's death, Bucharis's empire erupted into revolt. Almost as one, the tyrant's grip on world after world was overthrown. The palace itself was stormed, and traitors in his household opened the gates to let them in. Bucharis made his way to the spaceport, where he had a transport ready to evacuate should the need arise. He never made it off planet.

"I tread the path of righteousness. Though it be paved with broken glass, I will walk it barefoot. Though it crosses rivers of fire, I will pass over them. Though it wanders wide, the light of the Emperor guides my step."

Yes, that's the source of that quote from Soulstorm.

Interesting.

Lynata wrote:I've given the concept of a Living Saint some thought a year or so ago, and my theory is that a Living Saint could indeed be a psychic phenomenon - but in the sense of a warpspawned entity being born to "possess" one of the faithful. If we go by what GW wrote about the Chaos Gods, specifically the birth of Slaanesh, powerful emotions can result in the creation of an entity made up of and empowered by these feelings. Hope, despair and even dedication are feelings as well, and (just like religion, which acts as something for people to hold on to) are greatest in times of need. So it could be that in times of need, the collective turmoil of emotions felt by the masses of the faithful (Sisters, clergy, militias, soldiers, refugees) involved in some great conflict or crusade reach a critical mass where such a warp-spawned entity is manifested, immediately taking possession of the body of one of the most suitable vessels in the focal point and absorbing this faithful's knowledge and convictions to fill the empty void in itself, essentially creating a hybrid somewhere between man and "demon".

Needless to say, such a theory would be regarded as the uttermost heresy, as it is far more convenient that the Emperor somehow intervenes and acts through his servants - yet I feel that this twisted idea may not only be an entirely possible explanation, but also that it feels deliciously grimdark.

This seems pretty accurate. Uncontrolled coalescing (masses of similar souls reaching a critical mass, like Slaanesh) of souls seems to produce entities in the warp, while controlled coalescing (like the shamans' ritual suicide) create such entities incarnated in living beings, like the Emperor and the Living Saints. Since there are apparently Living Saints of Chaos too, it could be assumed that any driving purpose unifying masses of souls entering the warp (as would happen in the times of strife and desperate war that spawn Living Saints) creates an entity which incarnates in a physical form, assuming it reaches the critical mass necessary to do so.

English Assassin wrote: As to why there are no models, I'd presume the answer is simply that being girls is the Sisters of Battle's principal distinction in an otherwise all-male setting, hence the sole living saint model is likewise.

Pretty much.