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AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

You can't do that, he's mistaken.

Sasori wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

You can't do that, he's mistaken.

Really? You can't go out of combat anymore?



Well, thats kinda lame, but its still no excuse for Cron players to whine. you can still portal your dudes out of immenent danger and thats good enough.

Vargard Obyron can still use his Veil to leave close combat,though.

So there's that.

Grey Templar wrote:

Sasori wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

You can't do that, he's mistaken.

Really? You can't go out of combat anymore?



Well, thats kinda lame, but its still no excuse for Cron players to whine. you can still portal your dudes out of immenent danger and thats good enough.

Yeah, we lost the ability to pull out of combat, but gained an entire table range for the teleport, in addition to being able to pull anything besides vehicles through the Portal. We can also pull things in from reserve as well.

The ability to pull from reserves at any time without a roll is very strong. "Yeah, my immortals failed their reserve roll. They now just appear at my Monolith"

And then that ability that lets you deep strike stuff whenever your opponent brings stuff in from reserves or something. Thats pretty neat.

Indeed, that's just icing on the cake with Zandrekh. Making Heavy Destroyers S10 and Annihilation Barges S8, giving Lychguard Furious Charge, giving Scarabs Stealth, he's a very tactical HQ, which attracts me to using him.

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

Many necron players cried when this was removed...>.> I know I did...

7DSins wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

Many necron players cried when this was removed...>.> I know I did...

It was an over rated ability. Usually when necrons get into CC they get slaughtered, fail their morale test, and run away. The only thing that changed is now they get run down by sweeping advance due to their I2.

schadenfreude wrote:

7DSins wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

Many necron players cried when this was removed...>.> I know I did...

It was an over rated ability. Usually when necrons get into CC they get slaughtered, fail their morale test, and run away. The only thing that changed is now they get run down by sweeping advance due to their I2.

That hasn't changed - that's the same as it ever was. Save for lords, destroyer lords, c'tan, and wraiths necrons were all I2 in the old book too.

schadenfreude wrote:

7DSins wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

Many necron players cried when this was removed...>.> I know I did...

It was an over rated ability. Usually when necrons get into CC they get slaughtered, fail their morale test, and run away. The only thing that changed is now they get run down by sweeping advance due to their I2.

Thing was in 4th ed (I know it was a while ago but the old dex was made back in friggin 3rd!) they really didnt fail their morale test often which is why the ability was useful. The old necrons became the suck due to major changes in combat rez in 5th (and the change to glancing). So Ill say no it wasnt an overrated ability...just an outdated one.

Monster Rain wrote:

7DSins wrote:okay that aside...Is there any hope at all in a necron striking first in CC?

Wraiths with Whip Coils will, and if you attach a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs to the unit you will see units vanish quite quickly.

This. Wraiths are pricey, but worth every drop. If you want to CC, they are your answer.

schadenfreude wrote:

7DSins wrote:

AresX8 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

Many necron players cried when this was removed...>.> I know I did...

It was an over rated ability. Usually when necrons get into CC they get slaughtered, fail their morale test, and run away. The only thing that changed is now they get run down by sweeping advance due to their I2.

%th edition weekened warriors, i was hoping the new codex would bring them back up to scratch but they went the route of weekening them even more (yes they are cheaper but that doesnt make up for the weakening in stats as well as the meta game weakening they took since their first codex). To compensate for the weakening they really needed fearles imo to make use of their resistance instead of practically being auto destroyed from sweeps and not getting a chance to use their rp

%th edition weekened warriors, i was hoping the new codex would bring them back up to scratch but they went the route of weekening them even more (yes they are cheaper but that doesnt make up for the weakening in stats as well as the meta game weakening they took since their first codex). To compensate for the weakening they really needed fearles imo to make use of their resistance instead of practically being auto destroyed from sweeps and not getting a chance to use their rp

Keep in mind that this Codex was written with 6th in mind. I suspect we'll see a change in the way morale works in CC, as that seems to be a pretty big gripe. Fearless on everything in the Necron army would be too much, same as Stubborn. We also have ways to help mitigate the CC issue, with Court Lords and Crypteks. While not a perfect solution it does help. We can also mech up now as well.

They compensated us with the "Weakening" by a massive points drop. Their current Stat-line is pretty spot on for 13 points I'd say.

zacharia wrote:

%th edition weekened warriors, i was hoping the new codex would bring them back up to scratch but they went the route of weekening them even more (yes they are cheaper but that doesnt make up for the weakening in stats as well as the meta game weakening they took since their first codex). To compensate for the weakening they really needed fearles imo to make use of their resistance instead of practically being auto destroyed from sweeps and not getting a chance to use their rp

Actually, reducing their survivability by 16.7% but making them 27.8% cheaper more then makes up for it. Also new RP is better then old RP.

Plus they added tons of options to protect against CC. The ability to hide a Lord with a warscythe or phase sword/MSS behind the warriors wounds is absolutely huge. It's massive, and it definitely makes up for the low initiative. It doesn't make the Crons sweep proof, but then again nothing really is (even fearless models take their wounds).

I agree with Logoth. Mindshackle Scarabs and a Warscythe allow you to charge into combats that Warriors shouldn't win. I've seen battle reports where such a unit charges into Daemon Princes, Trygons, Obliterators, and the Warriors win combat.

Off hand thought and I'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this but would it be more effective (strategic wise) to trade out the groups of warriors for three groups of ten immortals?

It would save me only ten points on the roster and stats wise things wouldn't change (unless you look at the 3+ save instead of 4+), so it would come down to the weaponry pretty much which once again is a single point difference between strength and AP (granted a single point can make a world of difference) unless you switch their weapons to tesla, then it's a whole different ball game.

I think I already know the answer to this question, I just want a second opinion on the idea.

There are only a handful of situations in 40k where a full unit of wraiths with Dlord will fail at. Virtually every great cc unit in the game is outclassed by that unless its just an endless sea of gaunts/orks who wait them out, but even then you have scarabs for that.

Or Trazyn the Infinite.

Orks hate that Empathic Obliterator.

My first thought reading over this was .... " cry me a river! I'm an ork" but i can understand your frustration. Personally, I go over the perks to combat often and even my mighty Orkish army bows to the initiative of deadly warriors like the genestealer and Wytch. The only thing that is very important to know is if your enemy will be able to use grenades for combat if not yes you will be able to due to the fact the attack unit will be reducded to init 1 if you take cover in difficult terrain like most Necron do now. Besides marines this works on more units than you'd think... infact the nids have only 1 creature which can maintain it's init while charging and no one ever takes it! Make sure to use your battlefield and not just playing the range game.

Our mighty orkish army bows to the initiative of laughable warriors like tactical marines and ratlings...
Boy, I'd kill for I3/4 on boyz/nobz.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

zacharia wrote:

5th edition weekened warriors, i was hoping the new codex would bring them back up to scratch but they went the route of weekening them even more (yes they are cheaper but that doesnt make up for the weakening in stats as well as the meta game weakening they took since their first codex). To compensate for the weakening they really needed fearles imo to make use of their resistance instead of practically being auto destroyed from sweeps and not getting a chance to use their rp

Actually, reducing their survivability by 16.7% but making them 27.8% cheaper more then makes up for it. Also new RP is better then old RP.

Since the first codex where they cost 18 points the meta game weakened their weapons substantially, so they already needed a few points knocking off the cost.

They dropped a save from 3+ to 4+, a significant (but not huge) reduction against things of ap5 and6, but a huge reduction to all ap4 weapons (from 2/3 saving to 0 saving!

The rez orb/wbb balances out give or take - old codex 4+ wbb but could be insta killed - rez orb within range negates penalty
- new codex 5+ cant be instakilled - rez orb in unit makes it 4+

They should have left survivability alone and priced them a few points more to compensate the weakened guns (to high T and v vehicles due to meta game changes since they were added and costed and the removal of phase out, or made them fearless to avoid the cc flee and insta death they suffer from even more than before - of course if that is changed in their favour in 6th edition that will cover this, but thats a big if - even if they were thinking of doing that it could be changed before 6th is released which is why they should never balance against upcoming possible rules.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Actually, reducing their survivability by 16.7% but making them 27.8% cheaper more then makes up for it. Also new RP is better then old RP.

Their survivability is reduced by more than the 16.7%. AP4 weapons are far more common than AP3, and against them the warriors die 200% more (3 out of 3 wounded die instead of 1 out of 3).

The real preservation of survivability comes from making immortals a troop choice, which means you can build armies without warriors if you want to run MEQ. Also, immortals are 17 vs the old warrior 18 points, so still cheaper and have tesla access for free. My problem with them is the small unit size and the expensive models.

Another way to think about it is that the new warriors are a completely different unit, a form of skirmisher/pikeman underclass to the standard new line made of immortals. So, in my mind, they are not really comparable with the old warriors. It is amazing how a seemingly small change like that alters the playing style completely.

Regarding RP, I like it more than the old one because the rules are clearer and I no longer need to explain to the opponent that WBB is not like FNP (every fragging time!). However, it is not clear to me it is necessarily better, as I liked the synergies with orb and monolith recycling. A 75% chance to come back on a large unit of warriors made many opponents cringe in the past. Also, res orbs are more common now but can rack up points pretty fast as well.

Their survivability is reduced by more than the 16.7%. AP4 weapons are far more common than AP3, and against them the warriors die 200% more (3 out of 3 wounded die instead of 1 out of 3).

I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Very few people take large amounts of AP4 weapons, besides Eldar and GK. Even then GK's AP4 are limited to Psycannons and Psyriflemen for the most part. Generally with the huge focus on Anti-tank you are a lot more likely to see AP 1-3, for Melta, Lances and Missile launchers respectively. In addition, most armies tend to favor Anti-Meq more as well, so try to pack in the lower AP weapons as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see AP4 weapons nearly as often as I see Ap 1-3, which seems to comprise the vast majority of weapons that people take. In this case, a 3+ warrior really isn't that much more survivable.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Actually, reducing their survivability by 16.7% but making them 27.8% cheaper more then makes up for it. Also new RP is better then old RP.

Their survivability is reduced by more than the 16.7%. AP4 weapons are far more common than AP3, and against them the warriors die 200% more (3 out of 3 wounded die instead of 1 out of 3).

The real preservation of survivability comes from making immortals a troop choice, which means you can build armies without warriors if you want to run MEQ. Also, immortals are 17 vs the old warrior 18 points, so still cheaper and have tesla access for free. My problem with them is the small unit size and the expensive models.

Another way to think about it is that the new warriors are a completely different unit, a form of skirmisher/pikeman underclass to the standard new line made of immortals. So, in my mind, they are not really comparable with the old warriors. It is amazing how a seemingly small change like that alters the playing style completely.

Regarding RP, I like it more than the old one because the rules are clearer and I no longer need to explain to the opponent that WBB is not like FNP (every fragging time!). However, it is not clear to me it is necessarily better, as I liked the synergies with orb and monolith recycling. A 75% chance to come back on a large unit of warriors made many opponents cringe in the past. Also, res orbs are more common now but can rack up points pretty fast as well.

AP 4 weapons are really not that common, and cover is crazy common, so it 99% of situations you will be throwing a 4+ cover save now instead of the old 3+ armour save. Not that big of a deal. I really don't think there is any debate with RP versus WBB, the synergism with the old Mono not withstanding. The old one was so restricted to the Res Orb aura that it made a very static and inflexible phalanx. The fact that a bog standard 13 pt model can stand back up after being hit by a dump truck is just nails. Like wise, the fact that Destroyers half way across the board still can always use RP despite being nowhere near a Res Orb is just nails as well. I don't no how many games I've played with my Crons since 2002, but I guarantee you I would have won a few games that I didn't win if I had had the current incarnation of RP over the old WBB.

Sasori wrote:
I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Very few people take large amounts of AP4 weapons, besides Eldar and GK. Even then GK's AP4 are limited to Psycannons and Psyriflemen for the most part. Generally with the huge focus on Anti-tank you are a lot more likely to see AP 1-3, for Melta, Lances and Missile launchers respectively. In addition, most armies tend to favor Anti-Meq more as well, so try to pack in the lower AP weapons as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see AP4 weapons nearly as often as I see Ap 1-3, which seems to comprise the vast majority of weapons that people take. In this case, a 3+ warrior really isn't that much more survivable.

It is possible that my perspective is skewed. I play IG as well, and my lists have a TON of AP4: autocannons, hydra cannons, heavy bolters, heavy flamers, grenade launchers, griffons. I also have had many games against DE, which tend to be heavy on AP4 as well.

I agree that people try to load up on meltas and lances, but in the end, every army has them in relatively limited numbers. So, they will likely not be used on warriors, but on choicier targets. AP4 weapons on the other hand are more accessible in large numbers and generally would not be used on the same targets as meltas, etc.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Sasori wrote:
I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Very few people take large amounts of AP4 weapons, besides Eldar and GK. Even then GK's AP4 are limited to Psycannons and Psyriflemen for the most part. Generally with the huge focus on Anti-tank you are a lot more likely to see AP 1-3, for Melta, Lances and Missile launchers respectively. In addition, most armies tend to favor Anti-Meq more as well, so try to pack in the lower AP weapons as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see AP4 weapons nearly as often as I see Ap 1-3, which seems to comprise the vast majority of weapons that people take. In this case, a 3+ warrior really isn't that much more survivable.

It is possible that my perspective is skewed. I play IG as well, and my lists have a TON of AP4: autocannons, hydra cannons, heavy bolters, heavy flamers, grenade launchers, griffons. I also have had many games against DE, which tend to be heavy on AP4 as well.

I agree that people try to load up on meltas and lances, but in the end, every army has them in relatively limited numbers. So, they will likely not be used on warriors, but on choicier targets. AP4 weapons on the other hand are more accessible in large numbers and generally would not be used on the same targets as meltas, etc.

IG have a lot of everything, so it's no surprise if they pack a lot of AP4. Dark Eldar on the other hand, I never see any AP4. What weapons do you see them using? Most Dark Eldar Armies I come across are Heavy into Splinter weapons, Dark Lances and Blasters.

Sasori wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Sasori wrote:
I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Very few people take large amounts of AP4 weapons, besides Eldar and GK. Even then GK's AP4 are limited to Psycannons and Psyriflemen for the most part. Generally with the huge focus on Anti-tank you are a lot more likely to see AP 1-3, for Melta, Lances and Missile launchers respectively. In addition, most armies tend to favor Anti-Meq more as well, so try to pack in the lower AP weapons as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see AP4 weapons nearly as often as I see Ap 1-3, which seems to comprise the vast majority of weapons that people take. In this case, a 3+ warrior really isn't that much more survivable.

It is possible that my perspective is skewed. I play IG as well, and my lists have a TON of AP4: autocannons, hydra cannons, heavy bolters, heavy flamers, grenade launchers, griffons. I also have had many games against DE, which tend to be heavy on AP4 as well.

I agree that people try to load up on meltas and lances, but in the end, every army has them in relatively limited numbers. So, they will likely not be used on warriors, but on choicier targets. AP4 weapons on the other hand are more accessible in large numbers and generally would not be used on the same targets as meltas, etc.

IG have a lot of everything, so it's no surprise if they pack a lot of AP4. Dark Eldar on the other hand, I never see any AP4. What weapons do you see them using? Most Dark Eldar Armies I come across are Heavy into Splinter weapons, Dark Lances and Blasters.

Manticores are ap4

schadenfreude wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Sasori wrote:
I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. Very few people take large amounts of AP4 weapons, besides Eldar and GK. Even then GK's AP4 are limited to Psycannons and Psyriflemen for the most part. Generally with the huge focus on Anti-tank you are a lot more likely to see AP 1-3, for Melta, Lances and Missile launchers respectively. In addition, most armies tend to favor Anti-Meq more as well, so try to pack in the lower AP weapons as well.

I'm just saying, I don't see AP4 weapons nearly as often as I see Ap 1-3, which seems to comprise the vast majority of weapons that people take. In this case, a 3+ warrior really isn't that much more survivable.

It is possible that my perspective is skewed. I play IG as well, and my lists have a TON of AP4: autocannons, hydra cannons, heavy bolters, heavy flamers, grenade launchers, griffons. I also have had many games against DE, which tend to be heavy on AP4 as well.

I agree that people try to load up on meltas and lances, but in the end, every army has them in relatively limited numbers. So, they will likely not be used on warriors, but on choicier targets. AP4 weapons on the other hand are more accessible in large numbers and generally would not be used on the same targets as meltas, etc.

IG have a lot of everything, so it's no surprise if they pack a lot of AP4. Dark Eldar on the other hand, I never see any AP4. What weapons do you see them using? Most Dark Eldar Armies I come across are Heavy into Splinter weapons, Dark Lances and Blasters.

Manticores are ap4

Yes, that and Hydras are likely the most common AP4 we'd see from Guard. And I believe that Chimeras Have Heavy Bolters as well? Looks like Guard pack the most AP4 in TACs lists.

So, it looks for quantity of AP4, it would go IG>Eldar>GK.

So all in all, not a huge Deal.

Most Space Marine variants tend to pack a fair amount of AP4. Predators and Autocannon Dreadnoughts are extremely popular.