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First of all.....Seriously GW... Leaving their initiative at 2? What the flip...

okay that aside...Is there any hope at all in a necron striking first in CC?

My necrons were kicking ass against Tyranids until the little gaks got close then everything went to hell because of their I2 so I was curious if anyone has come up with a way of bettering their chances in close combat.

Don't let it happen.

Slow the enemy down as much as possible, break out the Tremor Staves or just break out the Ghost Arcs and mech up.


You are like tau Now, you rock at shooting but suck in CC. So Avoid CC. Make people get into Fire Fights with you and you'll win. Fight them on your terms, not thiers.

Necron with WBB and I2 is basically the same as plague marines with FNP and I2. They should be able to hold their own against non-assault units. Otherwise, like with an all-nurgle army, it's a matter of keeping the right units out of close combat, as lur tae mont says.

The only tactic I can come up with is a wall of scarabs in front of warriors / immortals with spiders replenishing the scarab numbers and protecting the gun line from psychic attacks. maybe even a dash of flayed ones or jump infantry coming in from behind to break things up a bit..

Its probably because theyre robots and are slower or something. Anyways you will strike first against power fists/thunderhammers and MCs I believe. Granted, if youre fighting them in cc you will probably lose combat anyway.

Look at it this way - If the necrons were resilient AND fast they'd have no discernible weakness. For an army like that, go with space marines. Necrons are not bad because they are I-2. Given the fact that most of the army is ws4, s4, and t4 or 5, with a universal come-back save of 5++ (4++ with a rez orb), they can take hits like champs and give back as good as they took. Army - wide LD10 also helps somewhat with combat resolution, though only somewhat.

So you're going to get rolled by dedicated CC units like TH/SS terminators, TWolf Cav, Paladins? Uhm...so do other armies. I-2 hurts the worst with sweeping advances (which may see some changes in 6th ed, but that is yet to be seen), but vs most units combat will probably be a draw or close to a draw.

Yes, Initiative 2 is a weakness. No, it does not ruin the army, it fits their style and flavor.

The simple soultion is don't get into CC.

Necrons could be I10 and they would still suck in CC, just like Tau would still suck if they were I10.



Anyway, the I2 is fluffy. They are zombie-undead robots in space. IE: they arn't going to be pulling fancy backflips and acrobatic moves.

At least you go at the same speed as Orks that didn't charge

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Don't let it happen.

Slow the enemy down as much as possible, break out the Tremor Staves or just break out the Ghost Arcs and mech up.


You are like tau Now, you rock at shooting but suck in CC. So Avoid CC. Make people get into Fire Fights with you and you'll win. Fight them on your terms, not thiers.

LOL

Tau.

Shooting IS fighting on tau terms. Melee against tau, because even though you're weak in CC, tau are abominable in it.

you could run a squad of wraiths with whip coils? with my experience in games these things are amazing!! really hard to kill in cc for their points value bacause of the 2 wounds and 3+ invun. if your crons are still alive in the next tuen of combat you can crash a wraith squad into the combat making the attackers I1 which means the crons will strike first as well as the str 6 attack from the wraiths.

My Doomsday Ark quite frankly doesn't care about all this close combat nonsense. Besides, The Necrons never die. If a marine hits them first, they will get him eventually. Those are some Patient Robots.

how about using wraiths with whipcoils?

3+ invulnerable, jump infantry, fearless, S6 rending, 2 wounds...and with the whipcoil all enemies in base contact become I1...for a base cost of 35 poits+ 10 for each whipcoil you want. Whats not to like?

You will hit first and they can tear through any vehicles.

Generally good saves and RP actually results in a surprisingly strong staying power for the crons. If you're looking to deal with CC, you have several options.

Flayed ones are arguably the most cost effective unit for what they can remove from the table for their price, but are better suited for hordy or non CC units and serve little to no use outside of that. Their cheap cost, high unit count, and RP means they have fantastic staying power to tie enemy units up, and combined with three attacks base, they can lay down a nice huge chunk of pain as well.

Wraiths are all rounders. They can hold out and eat through hordes, and can hold out and slowly eat away at hard stuff, plus have the ability to threaten vehicles.

Lychguard are the hard hitters, they slice through termies, and fly-swat anything else.

In the end, though, i2 is part of the Necron mechanic. You're hitting last, but it's about (a) surviving the hits, and (b) being able to return those killed to the table. As an Ork player, I'm all to used to hitting last 99% of the time - the only exceptions are when my boys are assaulted through cover by something that miraculously does not have offensive grenades, or if I've managed to assault a necron, tau, or ork unit out in the open. It's about learning to work around that. Orks have numbers - they can take the casualties from the higher initiative attacks, and still strike back with dozens of their own, plus that hidden Powerklaw. Necrons don't have the numbers (save Flayed Ones), but have good saves, high leadership, and can come back from the dead.

I'm going to be honest: there are solutions, many have already been presented. But instead, I shall contribute this:

Why are you trying to fight Tyranids in CC? Just... don't. Shoot them to pieces. It's very easy. Destroyers will wipe out any MCs Tyranids can field, and without any MCs left, Monoliths get renamed to "invincible bug smashers".

Do you mind posting the list you used? It could help us a lot in determining some tweaks that may help you.

Also, if you get into CC with Tyranids, you are going to lose. That's what they do, after all. Use your superior mobility, and firepower to your advantage. A single volley of Tesla is likely to reduce swarms to smouldering ash.

A list I came up with that is as centered around CC as I could get it:

Troops:
Total points:520

Warrior:20

Warrior:20

Transport: 230

Ghost Ark: 2

Elites:

Deathmark: 5

Lychguard: 5
Shields:5

Flayed one pack: 5 (Total of 20)
+15: 195

Fast attack:

Canoptek Wraith: 1 (Total of 6)
+5:175
Whip coil: 60

Canoptek Scarab:45 (Total of ten)
+7:105(13*7)
Canoptek Scarab:45 (total of ten
+7:105(13*7)

HQ:
Imotekh The storm lord: 1(225)

Necron Overlord:1
upgrades:
Phaeron:20
Warscythe:10
Mindshackle scarabs:15
tesseract labyrinth:20
Rez orb:30
Phase shifter:45

Heavy Support:

Capoptek Spider: 50 (Total of 3)
+2:100
Gloom Prison:45

Monolith:200

Total Points: 2700

Need to trim it by 200points but this is as close as I could get to a CC Necron army.

I personally do not like this list. Here's why:

1. The Lychguard are just walking to wherever they're going, and that is bad because they are very slow, and expensive. Here's that 200 points you needed to trim.
2. You have an Overlord with a Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Tesseract Labyrinth, Rez Orb and the Phaeron ability, so you obviously intend for him to not only get into CC, but to also lead a unit of your warriors. Don't do that. He is costing you 230 points right now. If you want to have a CC-overlord, use a Destroyer Lord, give him a Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter and put him in with your Wraiths.
3. Give 3 Wraiths Whip Coils, one a Caster, one a Beamer, and one nothing. This way you can allocate some wounds in order to keep them alive longer.
4. I cannot figure out what your Monolith is for in this list. I like Monoliths, but I don't see it helping you much here. Replace it with three Annihilation Barges. (the points reduction from the Overlord will cover the difference!)
5. Put a Harbinger of Eternity & Chronometron in with Imotekh. When it happens, you'll be glad you did. Yes you can, anyone that says otherwise is intentionally misreading rules.
6. Drop a few Warriors in each unit so that you can afford to put in a Harbinger of Destruction in each one.

Now you will be ready to kill some stuff under cover of darkness!

Good advice on azazels part...You cannot give the DLord a phase shifter however...

Sucks too cause a phase shifter would be an auto take on him.

I agree mostly with what Azazel said, except,

2. You have an Overlord with a Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Tesseract Labyrinth, Rez Orb and the Phaeron ability, so you obviously intend for him to not only get into CC, but to also lead a unit of your warriors. Don't do that. He is costing you 230 points right now. If you

The reason he is beefing out the Overlord is so he won't get singled out in combat, and power-weaponed to death, thereby loosing Phaeron which is absolutely vital for the 20man Warrior squads. That being said, I'd put the Orb on a Regular lord with WS and MSS in the squads, so they don't get singled out, and take out the Tesserect Labyrinth on the Overlord.

Sasori wrote:I agree mostly with what Azazel said, except,

2. You have an Overlord with a Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Tesseract Labyrinth, Rez Orb and the Phaeron ability, so you obviously intend for him to not only get into CC, but to also lead a unit of your warriors. Don't do that. He is costing you 230 points right now. If you

The reason he is beefing out the Overlord is so he won't get singled out in combat, and power-weaponed to death, thereby loosing Phaeron which is absolutely vital for the 20man Warrior squads. That being said, I'd put the Orb on a Regular lord with WS and MSS in the squads, so they don't get singled out, and take out the Tesserect Labyrinth on the Overlord.

Yeah, I assumed that was the reason. I should've been more specific: "don't do that" means do not bring him with the unit at all. He is wasted in there, as a basic Lord can do the same job for a third of the points, as you pointed out. I Wouldn't even bother with the Overlord at all, I'd go with the D.Lord suggestion, with the Wraiths.

Shake Zoola wrote:Good advice on azazels part...You cannot give the DLord a phase shifter however...

Sucks too cause a phase shifter would be an auto take on him.

My bad. Still, the rest of the idea is valid.

azazel the cat wrote:
4. I cannot figure out what your Monolith is for in this list. I like Monoliths, but I don't see it helping you much here. Replace it with three Annihilation Barges. (the points reduction from the Overlord will cover the difference!)

I'm putting the monolith in for two reasons (yes I would prefer barges also ->BUT<-), I cannot afford barges money wise and the monolith will allow me to take something such as a group of warriors and deep strike them into a point across field, if not that then I can have it moving behind the warriors / arks to offer long range template support for those 'oh crap they're getting close' moments. I admit it would not offer as good 'oh crap' support as barges but it's better then letting them lay out in the sun.

And my overlord will stay as is because I was thinking of having him walk with the lychguard.

Ailaros wrote:Necron with WBB and I2 is basically the same as plague marines with FNP and I2. They should be able to hold their own against non-assault units. Otherwise, like with an all-nurgle army, it's a matter of keeping the right units out of close combat, as lur tae mont says.

I disagree for several reasons.

Reason #1 Plague marines are fearless. Low initiative + failed morale tests=caught and killed. Negative combat resolution for plague marines=take some 3+ armor saves followed by a 4+FNP. Negative combat resolution for necrons=the entire unit is destroyed if they fail a morale test.

Reason #2 Plague marines are a lot more durable. T5 3+ armor 4+ FNP>T4 3+armor 4+ resurrection protocols>>>T4 4+ armor 5+ resurrection protocols. Despite resurrection protocols work against power weapons FNP is better because FNP works before combat resolution. Remember reason #1 and the unmitigated clusterfrak CC will become for necrons if they fail a morale test.

Reason #3 Plague marines are actually I3 and have bolt pistol + CCW for a base of 2 attacks. They can actually do very well if they assault some assault units (like orc boys) before the assault unit can assault them.

You only have 20 scoring troops in a 2700 list. I would take out the deathmarks, monolith, L-guard and de-beef the overlord to add much more warriors maybe even immortals, I prefer putting the phearon with a 10 man immortal squad then warriors.

Might just be me. I think you army needs a little direction.

Are you really going for an assault army? I'm not sure if it's the BEST idea for this book but it might be fun. If you are add a C'tan with writing worldscape to the list, he drastically changes how an opponent plays you in a game and he can fit perfectly fine in a game this large. Plus he's beast. Duh.

Then do one of two things, either keep the fast attack as it is and add in a load of tomb spyders. Scarabs and tomb spyders should always be together especially if you take 20 swarms. That or take one squad out and add more full squad of wraiths with whip coils. whip coils help out drastically if you're going for an all assault army.

Here's a little more weird idea. I have tested it out a bit and it works. Add a squad of 5 lords with warscythes and mindschakle scarabs in an overlord with all that and a res orb. Keep them in a mega unit together and have them ride in one of your ghost arks. This is legal. That way you can take advantage of it's open-toppedness. The mindschakle works like a charm and can beat certain armies to a pulp. Bugs are a great example, orks too. But even against spezzz marieeeeens it can work magic for you. Ive had this unit charge in and take out the worst of the worst. Paladins, th/ss, avatars, I beat two deamon princes once. In fact the only time I remember this unit losing a combat was to dca bastards. Just an idea.

Over 9000! wrote:
You only have 20 scoring troops in a 2700 list.

I have two groups of 20 running around for a total of 40.

Scoring is a concern but if you can hold one objective and screw up the rest then you're set. You technically don't have to hold everything, you just have to hold one and make sure your enemy doesn't get the rest.

The problem with I2 in regards to necrons is that unless it's against orks we will almost ALWAYS lose the sweeping advance roll. Sweep prevents RP rolls, and prevents you from placing EL counters (not removed as a casualty).

Yes you can try and keep them out of melee, but good luck doing that against dedicated melee. Sooner or later they will close. While I won't go on about how lack of CC is a crippling aspect of the codex (it really isn't, we can deal with it just fine with wraiths, mindshackle scarabs, etc.), I will state that sweeping advance is a HUGE determent to our army.

Long story short is that a single D6 roll will likely eat 300+ pts of units, and we have almost no chance of winning the initiative roll off. All it takes is a lucky fleet roll on behalf of the enemy and bam you're losing an entire unit of something.

Quite frankly, I don't find CC a problem in general. If I build to counter it, or build my list to use it specifically, it's okay. The problem arises in the fact that sweeping advance mitigates a MASSIVE part of our army (RP/EL). Yes, it can be dealt with, but honestly it shouldn't be quite so crippling. Here's hoping for a change in 6th ed.

7DSins wrote:

Over 9000! wrote:
You only have 20 scoring troops in a 2700 list.

I have two groups of 20 running around for a total of 40.

Thats what I meant to say. I thought 40 and posted 20.

Anyway 40 troops might be ok for a ing ultramarines player but cronies like us can't pull it off. For example. In all the chaos of a 2700 point battle you misjudge the distance a small assault squad is from your warriors. The champ with a power wep gets lucky and kills two the other four ams kill another two. Your overlord gets unlucky with his warscafe and flattens one marine the rest of the squad try there best but the marine player is on fire with his armor and only loses one more. You lose by two. Your leadership dice read 3 and 6 yeah there goes half of your scoring units. My point is add more troops. It's usually the problem with most lists. I like 5th Editon overall but the thing I hate most is that two thirds of games are objective based. Which means we need to stalk up on troops instead of the fun stuff.

WanderingFox wrote:The problem with I2 in regards to necrons is that unless it's against orks we will almost ALWAYS lose the sweeping advance roll. Sweep prevents RP rolls, and prevents you from placing EL counters (not removed as a casualty).

Yes you can try and keep them out of melee, but good luck doing that against dedicated melee. Sooner or later they will close. While I won't go on about how lack of CC is a crippling aspect of the codex (it really isn't, we can deal with it just fine with wraiths, mindshackle scarabs, etc.), I will state that sweeping advance is a HUGE determent to our army.

Long story short is that a single D6 roll will likely eat 300+ pts of units, and we have almost no chance of winning the initiative roll off. All it takes is a lucky fleet roll on behalf of the enemy and bam you're losing an entire unit of something.

Quite frankly, I don't find CC a problem in general. If I build to counter it, or build my list to use it specifically, it's okay. The problem arises in the fact that sweeping advance mitigates a MASSIVE part of our army (RP/EL). Yes, it can be dealt with, but honestly it shouldn't be quite so crippling. Here's hoping for a change in 6th ed.

I would argue that Ever-Living still triggers even after a sweeping advance. The sweeping advance rule says the destroyed unit is removed immediately. At that point ever-living triggers and a token is placed where the character fell. Then the enemy gets to consolidate. If after the enemy's consolidation the character passes his RP roll, he has to be placed within 3" of the token, and further than 1" from the enemy (which gives a circle with about a 9" diameter, if your ever-living token is 1") that the model can be placed into.

WanderingFox wrote:The problem with I2 in regards to necrons is that unless it's against orks we will almost ALWAYS lose the sweeping advance roll. Sweep prevents RP rolls, and prevents you from placing EL counters (not removed as a casualty).

You delt with it in the old codex, you can do the same with the new. You can even do it better because now Crons have Transports, your weaponry is much better so you have more options in avoiding CC all together, and then you have some actual CC units(Wraiths, Lychguard) to run interference. And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Grey Templar wrote:

...And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

Where in the codex does it say that?

tetrisphreak wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:The problem with I2 in regards to necrons is that unless it's against orks we will almost ALWAYS lose the sweeping advance roll. Sweep prevents RP rolls, and prevents you from placing EL counters (not removed as a casualty).

Yes you can try and keep them out of melee, but good luck doing that against dedicated melee. Sooner or later they will close. While I won't go on about how lack of CC is a crippling aspect of the codex (it really isn't, we can deal with it just fine with wraiths, mindshackle scarabs, etc.), I will state that sweeping advance is a HUGE determent to our army.

Long story short is that a single D6 roll will likely eat 300+ pts of units, and we have almost no chance of winning the initiative roll off. All it takes is a lucky fleet roll on behalf of the enemy and bam you're losing an entire unit of something.

Quite frankly, I don't find CC a problem in general. If I build to counter it, or build my list to use it specifically, it's okay. The problem arises in the fact that sweeping advance mitigates a MASSIVE part of our army (RP/EL). Yes, it can be dealt with, but honestly it shouldn't be quite so crippling. Here's hoping for a change in 6th ed.

I would argue that Ever-Living still triggers even after a sweeping advance. The sweeping advance rule says the destroyed unit is removed immediately. At that point ever-living triggers and a token is placed where the character fell. Then the enemy gets to consolidate. If after the enemy's consolidation the character passes his RP roll, he has to be placed within 3" of the token, and further than 1" from the enemy (which gives a circle with about a 9" diameter, if your ever-living token is 1") that the model can be placed into.

Reread everliving. It only functions if it is removed "as a casualty" sweeping advance does not do this. The only way to get it to work is if they kill the model out-right (ie you generate an everliving counter) and THEN they sweep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:The problem with I2 in regards to necrons is that unless it's against orks we will almost ALWAYS lose the sweeping advance roll. Sweep prevents RP rolls, and prevents you from placing EL counters (not removed as a casualty).

You delt with it in the old codex, you can do the same with the new. You can even do it better because now Crons have Transports, your weaponry is much better so you have more options in avoiding CC all together, and then you have some actual CC units(Wraiths, Lychguard) to run interference. And you can still use the Monolith to portel out of CC.

I wasn't stating it wasn't avoidable, just crippling if it happens. Sweeping advance just hurts us far more than normal, and the vast majority of our gun line is 24in which means being relatively close to the enemy.

7DSins wrote:okay that aside...Is there any hope at all in a necron striking first in CC?

Wraiths with Whip Coils will, and if you attach a Destroyer Lord with Mindshackle Scarabs to the unit you will see units vanish quite quickly.