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A unit is defined as a group of one or more models. If you modify the leadership of the unit, you are by definition modifying the leadership of the models within the unit. Nowhere is there any distinction made between the leadership value of individual models and of the unit as a group.

IMHO, the Ork makes the test with the Mob Rule leadership.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I just quoted two rules from the BRB which state the exact opposite. When a leadership characteristic test is required from a model, you always use the highest ld in the unit, no matter what the profile of the model in question says.

Correct, two rules. The first rule tells you how a model takes a Leadership test. The second rule tells you how a unit takes a Leadership test.

Wrong.

The first one tells you to always use the unit's highest leadership if you have to take a leadership test.

The second one reinforces this by saying all leadership tests always use the unit's leadership value.

Just like units can't have mixed cover saves, they can't have mixed leadership values. If Taleon or a Vindicare tries to snipe a model in the open, you still can use the cover save you gained due to five other models being hidden from view. which aren't targeted at all.

Ork codex, page 37 weridboy entry 2nd paragraph "Remember that a Weirdboy's leadership (as well as IC's and members of the mob) is affected by Mob Rule"

This is a really silly thing to post about because you are saying the links are weaker than the weave. You can't have a fearless leadership 10 mob without them all having the ability. You are looking at the term 'Mobs" as exclusive rather than inclusive.

I mean read the bloody description it even talks about a single ork getting thrown into a frenzy with other boyz around him!

Ork Page 31: Ork pyschology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels. Because of this, Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their leadership value. if an ork mob numbers 11 of more models it has the Fearless Special rule.

Also lets reference some basic rules to the BRB shall we? According to the fearless rules, an independent character will gain it for joining a unit so in this case weirdboyz , warbosses, and big meks can get it ... but apparently not that boy right? so even though we have fluff stating how it works, our powerful independent characters gaining it through codex, faq and BRB statements your founding is "The word Mobs" it would have been like saying "these guys are able to subsitutute their leadership". But your rebuttal is "But only 1 guy is asked to." the natural response would be "okay, no problem cause he can just like his friends."

Jidmah wrote:Wrong.

The first one tells you to always use the unit's highest leadership if you have to take a leadership test.

The second one reinforces this by saying all leadership tests always use the unit's leadership value.

Just like units can't have mixed cover saves, they can't have mixed leadership values. If Taleon or a Vindicare tries to snipe a model in the open, you still can use the cover save you gained due to five other models being hidden from view. which aren't targeted at all.

I disagree.
BRB, page 8, 1st paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"...If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."
This tells us how a model takes a Leadership test, by using it's own Leadership value.

BRB, page 8, 2nd paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."
This tells us how a unit determines it's Leadership value.

If a unit takes a Leadership Test we are told to take the highest Ld value in the unit to test against.

If a model takes a Leadership Test we are told to use it's Ld value.

A model will not always have the highest Ld value in the unit, but the unit will always use the highest Ld value of it's models.

The Ork's Mob Rule! tells us we can "...substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value." Codex: Orks, page 31.
They are the only army, that I know of right now, that can do this. So, their unit Ld value is the same as all the models in the unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cheexsta wrote:A unit is defined as a group of one or more models. If you modify the leadership of the unit, you are by definition modifying the leadership of the models within the unit. Nowhere is there any distinction made between the leadership value of individual models and of the unit as a group.

IMHO, the Ork makes the test with the Mob Rule leadership.

BRB, page 8, under 'Leadership Tests', defines a model's Leadership value and the unit's Leadership value. They are two different things.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Wrong.

The first one tells you to always use the unit's highest leadership if you have to take a leadership test.

The second one reinforces this by saying all leadership tests always use the unit's leadership value.

Just like units can't have mixed cover saves, they can't have mixed leadership values. If Taleon or a Vindicare tries to snipe a model in the open, you still can use the cover save you gained due to five other models being hidden from view. which aren't targeted at all.

I disagree.
BRB, page 8, 1st paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"...If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."
This tells us how a model takes a Leadership test, by using it's own Leadership value.

BRB, page 8, 2nd paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."
This tells us how a unit determines it's Leadership value.

If a unit takes a Leadership Test we are told to take the highest Ld value in the unit to test against.

If a model takes a Leadership Test we are told to use it's Ld value.

A model will not always have the highest Ld value in the unit, but the unit will always use the highest Ld value of it's models.

The Ork's Mob Rule! tells us we can "...substitute the number of Orks in their mob for their normal Leadership value." Codex: Orks, page 31.
They are the only army, that I know of right now, that can do this. So, their unit Ld value is the same as all the models in the unit.

We've stated our opinions, is it really this hard to beat a leadership 10 with 3 dice btw? I am of the very simple understand that Mobs is inclusive to the fact that it means anything orky is able to repalce the number of guys hanging with him as his leadership just like independent characters are able to in our codex. If this were any other army than orks i'd agree but you just want to be right and you are reading words rather than intention and that is the sort of thing that wouldn't make for a good game. If you and I were arguing personally i'd ask for a roll off from you of 4+ and leave it at that .

All and all I think you can't really disagree to crud till the necron FAQ comes out which I am sure we will be listed there if not earlier. RAW is so often proclaimed rather than think it's possible GW might just need to learn american-ized English. lol i swear

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:you are reading words rather than intention and that is the sort of thing that wouldn't make for a good game.

Yeah, YMDC is totally the place to be trying to read intent into words instead of debating using RAW.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:We've stated our opinions, is it really this hard to beat a leadership 10 with 3 dice btw? I am of the very simple understand that Mobs is inclusive to the fact that it means anything orky is able to repalce the number of guys hanging with him as his leadership just like independent characters are able to in our codex. If this were any other army than orks i'd agree but you just want to be right and you are reading words rather than intention and that is the sort of thing that wouldn't make for a good game. If you and I were arguing personally i'd ask for a roll off from you of 4+ and leave it at that .

All and all I think you can't really disagree to crud till the necron FAQ comes out which I am sure we will be listed there if not earlier. RAW is so often proclaimed rather than think it's possible GW might just need to learn american-ized English. lol i swear

I must not be making myself clear. I apologize.

I agree with almost everything you said. Except, that an Independent Character changes the Ld value of every model in the unit. An IC could change the unit's Ld value, but not the Ld value of every model in that unit. Orks are the only exception, that I know of, where the unit's Ld value and that of it's models, are the same. (thanks to Mob Rule!)

rigeld2 wrote:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:you are reading words rather than intention and that is the sort of thing that wouldn't make for a good game.

Yeah, YMDC is totally the place to be trying to read intent into words instead of debating using RAW.

To me it's obvious, and if my opponent wasn't satisfied with my original post that i went over detailing my situation of a 4+ roll off then i don't bother playing those types of people. This is simply a liberal interpretation of the ork codex which happens here much too often as almost all who enter into this section know the ork codex was poor worded at best. If reading multiple entries and repeating your statement over and over saying you understand it differently then not much point in online debate about the matter. Make it a roll off and move on with your life, but i can tell you reading over every section of relevant info from OP and previous posters that the BRB, Codex and Faq support the claim of a 10 ld not a 7. again even then this seems moot as 10 is honestly about just as easy to roll as 7 with 3 dice (i know it's harder but it's from above average to average chances).

FAQ statement
Q. Can a Weirdboy’s Leadership be increased to more
than 10 by the Mob Rule? (p31)
A. No, it can be increased, but only up to a maximum
of 10.

Ork Page 31: Ork pyschology and morale is directly linked to the number of boyz around them at any given time. An Ork with a trukkload of his mates backing him is a good sight more confident than one with just his half-wit mate Zog at his heels. Because of this, Ork Mobs may always choose to substitute the number of orks in their mob for their leadership value. if an ork mob numbers 11 of more models it has the Fearless Special rule.

Fearless extends to IC characters who join unit

I disagree.
BRB, page 8, 1st paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"...If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed."
This tells us how a model takes a Leadership test, by using it's own Leadership value.

(Model is part of a mob therefore mob influences leadership)

BRB, page 8, 2nd paragraph under 'Leadership Tests',
"If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value."
This tells us how a unit determines it's Leadership value.

thank you for agreeing with us.

If a model takes a Leadership Test we are told to use it's Ld value.

Model is part of a mob therefore mob influences leadership

These are my statements against your own. It's right to the point any other statements in my mind won't matter till i see an FAQ since I'm offering the good sportsman roll of 4+ during an official answer.

@ Big Mek Wurrzog

Yes, for Orks you are correct, as far as I know. But only for Orks.

No other army, as for as I know, actually changes the Ld value of every model in the unit.

Mob rule substitutes the models leadership value, I don't see why its such a hard thing to comprehend, the boyz are all excited to fight with their mob of +10 boyz

Funny though because Orkz have already stumpted Necrons in their fluff... yet again the Boyz prove their not just stupid muscle bound cretons.

There is no question about mob rule working against mindshackle scarabs. If you had read the thread, you would have seen everyone except the first posters agreeing on this.

The argument is that ToBeWIlly seems to be under the impression that models in units with mixed leadership values can use another value than the highest one, which they can not. Always means always, not only when testing against the unit. Every explanation of leadership tests in the BRB uses that exact wording.

Jidmah wrote:There is no question about mob rule working against mindshackle scarabs. If you had read the thread, you would have seen everyone except the first posters agreeing on this.

The argument is that ToBeWIlly seems to be under the impression that models in units with mixed leadership values can use another value than the highest one, which they can not. Always means always, not only when testing against the unit. Every explanation of leadership tests in the BRB uses that exact wording.

My apologies, i didn't realize this till his most recent post. I retract my confrontation about the subject. Still... if someone had been so persistent with orks i would have had that same mentality. As far as other models... hmmm i dunno it is a good point but I still tend to agree with Jidmah on this one. It makes sense that the "captain" or leader more or less overrides the LD of all other models he is in control of as BRB makes me think that as well but this one is alot more fair a statement then the previous ones i thought we were having hehe.

Seems like I'm going to be 0 for 2 in this thread. Not my best showing.

BRB, page 50, third paragraph under 'Psykers'
"...where Leadership tests would normally be taken on the value of another model..."

This clearly states that a model will use the unit's Leadership value at all times, except for Psychic tests.

I concede.

I saw this come up at tourney at a GW store in scotland. And the umpires/moderator/referee discussion resulted in:

The ork unit took leadership according to mob rule.

The scarab rule's use of the word model, was stated to mean the attack was directed toward a single model not the unit.

takes a leadership test:

And an ork leadership test is against its leadership which is affected by mob rule.

Take that for what its worth.


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But frankly an ork would just think a mind scarab is a kool hat and keep on trukkin!

Do fearless models still have to roll?

Billagio wrote:Do fearless models still have to roll?

Yes. Fearless is only for Morale and Pinning tests.