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if you try to mindshackle scarab a orc boy, LD7
with mob rules it says the "mob" is LD 10 (or number of boyz in a squad)
would you roll off LD 7 or LD 10?

LD 7 im pretty sure...

There's nothing to suggest it's unmodified leadership, and if there are 10 or more boyz in the squad then the boy's Ld is 10 for all intents and purposes, so I say 10.

bombboy1252 wrote:LD 7 im pretty sure...

any thing to support this?

Avatar 720 wrote:There's nothing to suggest it's unmodified leadership, and if there are 10 or more boyz in the squad then the boy's Ld is 10 for all intents and purposes, so I say 10.

mob rules says the "mob" not a individual orc. that is my only issue with agreeing with that 100%...

He is still part of the unit, and therefore benefits from the mob rule, the fact that he is targeted and not the unit as a whole makes no difference; if you're part of a mob with 10+ models in it, you can choose to substitute your own Ld for the number of models, up to a maximum of 10.

EDIT: The Ork codex also makes note of the Weirdboy being affected by the Mob Rule when taking psychic tests, therefore creating precedent for a single model to benefit when taking a leadership test.

Mindshackle Scarabs states, "...That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6..."

Mob Rule! states, "...Ork mobs may always choose to substitute..."

The model takes the test, not the unit (mob in this case). The model's Leadership is what is listed on it's profile.

If you take the weirdboy entry into consideration, then it would seem that any model of a ork unit has his leadership “replaced” with the mob rule leadership. As a Necron player, I’d say that the ork boy tests on the mob rule ld.

I agree. The weirdboy is the precedent on how this should be handled. The model tests LD using the mob rule.

copper.talos wrote:I agree. The weirdboy is the precedent on how this should be handled. The model tests LD using the mob rule.

Agreed. +1

copper.talos wrote:I agree. The weirdboy is the precedent on how this should be handled. The model tests LD using the mob rule.

Agreed +2

Without even looking at the ork codex, BRB pg. 8 states that leadership tests are always taken on the highest leadership in the unit. So even in a non-fearless unit with a warboss attached every model would test against ld9.

No that is wrong. Model based LD checks don't use the higher LD in the unit. They use their own. Orcs are an exception because of the mob rule.

ToBeWilly wrote:Mindshackle Scarabs states, "...That model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6..."

Mob Rule! states, "...Ork mobs may always choose to substitute..."

The model takes the test, not the unit (mob in this case). The model's Leadership is what is listed on it's profile.

May ALWAYS choose to substitute...

So you can, as an ork player, ALWAYS choose to substitute the leadership. So, you can substitute the leadership, always and in any case or scenario requiring a leadership test.

I'm sorry, I disagree.

"...Ork mobs may always choose..." Codex: Orks, page 31, under Mob Rule!

The mob (unit) may always choose, not the model. This is a Leadership test based on the models Leadership, not the units.

Weirdboyz are an exception to this, because their rules for Psychic Powers tells you they are.
"...Remember that a Weirdboy's Leadership is affected by Mob Rule!...", Codex: Orks, page 37, under Weirdboy Psychic Powers.

That isn't an exception, that is a reminder. The presence of 'Remember' implies that we should already know this is the case, but is there on the chance that we forgot. An exception is an explicit statement that it does not follow the normal rules.

An exception in this circumstance would be worded similarly to "Unlike single members of a mob, a Weirdboys's Leadership is affected by Mob Rule!"

There is also the fact that if a unit's Leadership is 10, then the members of that unit will also be Ld for all intents and purposes. The fact MSS singles out 1 model does not remove the fact that he is still part of a unit benefiting from the Mob Rule! and therefore making all its members Ld10.

ToBeWilly - ork mobs ARE Ld10, meaning every single statline Ld value is set to 10, if they want it to be

copper.talos wrote:No that is wrong. Model based LD checks don't use the higher LD in the unit. They use their own. Orcs are an exception because of the mob rule.

"LEADERSHIP TESTS
Tests made against the Leadership characteristig (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 [...]. If the result is equal to or less than the model's Leadership, the test is passed.

If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highes Ld value." (BRB pg. 8)

"Like all other Leadership-based tests, moral checks are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value, if the test is passed[...] (BRB pg. 43)

If any model in a unit must take a leadership test, you always use leadership value of the unit, which is defined by the model with the highest Ld value.

Except that this is for units. When a single models roll for leadership test, it is made on its profile value + any modifiers.

Eldar Farseers have been frying SM brains on LD8 for years...

copper.talos wrote:Except that this is for units. When a single models roll for leadership test, it is made on its profile value + any modifiers.

Eldar Farseers have been frying SM brains on LD8 for years...

Thats not a relevant point though, orks may always choose to replace their LD value with the size of their unit via mob rule. space marines don't do anything similar, they just benefit from the sergeants LD 9. No 1 ork is ld 10, but every ork can use ld 10 when he's got a mob of 30 boyz with him.

copper.talos wrote:Except that this is for units. When a single models roll for leadership test, it is made on its profile value + any modifiers.

Eldar Farseers have been frying SM brains on LD8 for years...

There is no rule in the eldar codex forcing single models to take a leadership test, including Mind War.

If Mind War would force Leadership tests, they would have to obey the rules in the BRB I just quoted. This includes always using the highest LD in the unit.

Have a look at the rules you are referring to before making false statements.

I concede on Mob Rule! It does state you substitute the actual Leadership value.

However, I do not agree on a model's Leadership always being equal to the unit's Leadership.

Mindshackle Scarabs tests the model's Leadership, not the unit's.

Jidmah wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Except that this is for units. When a single models roll for leadership test, it is made on its profile value + any modifiers.

Eldar Farseers have been frying SM brains on LD8 for years...

There is no rule in the eldar codex forcing single models to take a leadership test, including Mind War.

If Mind War would force Leadership tests, they would have to obey the rules in the BRB I just quoted. This includes always using the highest LD in the unit.

Have a look at the rules you are referring to before making false statements.

I'm pretty sure that in one of the Eldar FAQ, it explicitedly states that MindWar forces that individual model's LD stateline.

However, with regard to Mob Rule... I've always played it that the individual model can use mob rule when performing a LD test... otherwise, what's the point?

Except Mind War does not force a Ld test. Ld tests are always taken on the highest Ld, however (and this is not in the FAQ), Mind War is just d6 + the models Ld value. And against Orks, they would be able to use the Mob rule, to bump their Ld up.

ToBeWilly wrote:I concede on Mob Rule! It does state you substitute the actual Leadership value.

However, I do not agree on a model's Leadership always being equal to the unit's Leadership.

Mindshackle Scarabs tests the model's Leadership, not the unit's.

If you have a unit that is Ld10, then all models in that unit must be Ld10. A unit cannot be Ld10 and have all its models being Ld7, if the models are Ld7, then so is the unit, and if the unit is Ld10, then the models must be Ld10 too.

Unlike instances where you can choose to use a single model's higher Ld for a test, the Mob Rule! replaces the leadership of every model in that unit with the amount of models in it, up to a maximum of 10.

There isn't a mysterious other leadership value, a unit of Ork Boys do not have a seperate leadership value called Unit Leadership, the only way a unit can become Ld10 is if all the models in that unit are Ld10.

Avatar 720 wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:I concede on Mob Rule! It does state you substitute the actual Leadership value.

If you have a unit that is Ld10, then all models in that unit must be Ld10. A unit cannot be Ld10 and have all its models being Ld7, if the models are Ld7, then so is the unit, and if the unit is Ld10, then the models must be Ld10 too.

Unlike instances where you can choose to use a single model's higher Ld for a test, the Mob Rule! replaces the leadership of every model in that unit with the amount of models in it, up to a maximum of 10.

There isn't a mysterious other leadership value, a unit of Ork Boys do not have a seperate leadership value called Unit Leadership, the only way a unit can become Ld10 is if all the models in that unit are Ld10.

I agree. I conceded on Mob Rule!

Almost every other army, though, does not change the Leadership value of every model in the unit to the highest in the unit.

So, in almost every other instance of a model taking a Leadership test, except Orks (thanks to their Mob Rule!), and maybe others I'm not aware of, you use the Leadership value on it's profile.

whembly wrote:

Jidmah wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Except that this is for units. When a single models roll for leadership test, it is made on its profile value + any modifiers.

Eldar Farseers have been frying SM brains on LD8 for years...

There is no rule in the eldar codex forcing single models to take a leadership test, including Mind War.

If Mind War would force Leadership tests, they would have to obey the rules in the BRB I just quoted. This includes always using the highest LD in the unit.

Have a look at the rules you are referring to before making false statements.

I'm pretty sure that in one of the Eldar FAQ, it explicitedly states that MindWar forces that individual model's LD stateline.

Even without a FAQ Mindwar uses the single model's ld, because it's not a characteristic test. You add d6 to both model's LD and get a result, comparable to sweeping advances, which is not an initiative test.

ToBeWilly wrote:Almost every other army, though, does not change the Leadership value of every model in the unit to the highest in the unit.

So, in almost every other instance of a model taking a Leadership test, except Orks (thanks to their Mob Rule!), and maybe others I'm not aware of, you use the Leadership value on it's profile.

I just quoted two rules from the BRB which state the exact opposite. When a leadership characteristic test is required from a model, you always use the highest ld in the unit, no matter what the profile of the model in question says.

Jidmah wrote:I just quoted two rules from the BRB which state the exact opposite. When a leadership characteristic test is required from a model, you always use the highest ld in the unit, no matter what the profile of the model in question says.

Correct, two rules. The first rule tells you how a model takes a Leadership test. The second rule tells you how a unit takes a Leadership test.

ToBeWilly wrote:

Jidmah wrote:I just quoted two rules from the BRB which state the exact opposite. When a leadership characteristic test is required from a model, you always use the highest ld in the unit, no matter what the profile of the model in question says.

Correct, two rules. The first rule tells you how a model takes a Leadership test. The second rule tells you how a unit takes a Leadership test.

Actually, no. The first rule he quoted deals with Leadership checks, the second deals with morale checks, although when put together you can see that the first tells you how to obtain the leadership value, and the second tells you how to use it to take a morale check; first you find the highest leadership, then you test against it. MSS isn't a morale check, but morale checks give an example of how to deal with Ld checks.

Almost every other army, though, does not change the Leadership value of every model in the unit to the highest in the unit.

So, in almost every other instance of a model taking a Leadership test, except Orks (thanks to their Mob Rule!), and maybe others I'm not aware of, you use the Leadership value on it's profile.

I don't understand what you're trying to say, nor how it relates to the current discussion (especially since you exempted Orks).

He is saying that (for example) a group of DA (Ld 8) with an Exarch (Ld 9) would take Ld tests as a unit at Ld 9, however, the individual models use their own Ld value (9 for Exarch, 8 for DA). Due to the Orks mob rule, the individual Ld almost always is the units highest Ld so it wouldn't matter in their case.

Happyjew wrote:He is saying that (for example) a group of DA (Ld 8) with an Exarch (Ld 9) would take Ld tests as a unit at Ld 9, however, the individual models use their own Ld value (9 for Exarch, 8 for DA). Due to the Orks mob rule, the individual Ld almost always is the units highest Ld so it wouldn't matter in their case.

Correct. That was my argument for why an Ork would test on it's listed Leadership value, regardless of Mob Rule!

It was brought to my attention that Mob Rule! does in fact change the value for every Ork in the mob.

Is that relevant enough for you, Avatar 720?