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Celtic Strike wrote:You're just being asinine at this point aren't you?

Clearly the Sanginary priest cannot be upgraded. I have never even heard of a single person who thinks it can.

No, the Astartes Grenade Launcher Illustrates my point very well. It shows that the upgrade is talking about any of the Bikers (Anyone on a bike) in the Squad of Scout Bikes.

If you insist that a noviate is not an honor guard then you must also be that strict and say that no models can take the Astartes grenade launcher. Which simply can not be, because why list the option if no model can aquire that option?

There are many people who think a Sanguinary Noviate can get upgrades.

For the Long Fangs, since the Squad Leader has a specific exception about trading in his bolt pistol, he must be a long fang.

@Scott-S6: The Mandrakes Unit is one such example as well.

The following quote is from a different thread, but it applies here: (I added the Orange Text)

Kommissar Kel wrote:To say that the Noviate is not Honor Guard is the same as saying the Mandrake "Nightfiend" is not a Mandrakesand to do so would deny the Mandrake "Nightfiend" his 5++ save(as the save is granted to "Mandrakes"; which he is by virtue of being a member of a mandrakes unit made up of "Mandrakes" and a "Nightfiend"); And I am more than certain we can find many more examples of unit and basic trooper names being identical and the unit members all(including upgrade characters) receiving a special rule that calls for the unit-name to be affected.

Scott-S6 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It also shows us that the Squad Leader IS a Long Fang.

No it doesn't.

It may be referring to the unit name or it may be referring to the model name with a note to clarify the situation.

Can you find a single unambiguous example? (where the model name and unit name are different and the unit name is referred to)

Agreed. There is nothing at all suggesting that the Squad Leader is a "Long Fang" in the literal sense, apart from the fact he is in a Long Fang unit. The language can be parsed thus:

Each Long Fang (model name), apart from the Squad Leader (model name) must replace his bolt pistol. . .

You can try to infer that because it says "apart", that it indicates the Squad Leader is a "Long Fang". But you can just as easily infer that it does not mean that, and that it is added simply for clarity.

To say that GW is trying to use the English language to perfectly articulate what a Squad Leader is is less believable than them adding something to a profile for redudancy and clarity, imo.

While I find that there is some ambiguity and inconsistency in how GW expresses this idea in different books, overall I lean toward Scott-6s position on this one.

If the Sang Novitiate was intended to be able to take upgrades, it would have made more sense for the unit entry to tell you that "any model" can take the upgrades, not "any Honor Guard". The only purpose of using that phrasing is to exclude the Novitiate.

I think the Long Fangs are just a variation on the usual way of expressing it.

DeathReaper wrote:

If you insist that a noviate is not an honor guard then you must also be that strict and say that no models can take the Astartes grenade launcher. Which simply can not be, because why list the option if no model can aquire that option?

Eldar Phoenix Lords are never considered 'Exarchs', so by RAW, they cannot use their powers. It is silly and people ignore it and play RAI, but just because it is RAW and doesn't make sense, doesn't mean "it simply cannot be".

Ugh... I hadn't even thought of this. Will err on the side of safety and not upgrade the novitiate. Like someone else mentioned, when I originally read it, it didn't even occur to me that he could be upgraded... he's carrying around the blood chalice, right?

puma713 wrote:Eldar Phoenix Lords are never considered 'Exarchs', so by RAW, they cannot use their powers. It is silly and people ignore it and play RAI, but just because it is RAW and doesn't make sense, doesn't mean "it simply cannot be".

Then why even Include the option if no one in the unit can take it? They must have intended for them to use the grenade launcher.

And what about the mandrakes?

Would you deny the Nightfiend his 5++ simply because the save is granted to "Mandrakes"?

Mannahnin wrote:
If the Sang Novitiate was intended to be able to take upgrades, it would have made more sense for the unit entry to tell you that "any model" can take the upgrades, not "any Honor Guard". The only purpose of using that phrasing is to exclude the Novitiate.

+1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:And what about the mandrakes?

Would you deny the Nightfiend his 5++ simply because the save is granted to "Mandrakes"?

By RAW, yes. RAI, no. I'd allow the save.

By RAW, the Doom of Malan'tai isn't a Zoanthrope and so it cannot use anything that refers to the zoanthrope. However, it was FAQed in the Tyranid FAQ simply because they left the language out of the codex. They realized that the Swarmlord, Deathleaper, Doom of Malan'tai were all broken (because all of their powers referred to 'hive tyrant', 'lictor' and 'zoanthrope'), so they FAQ'ed it. Technically, Nightfiend doesn't get the 5++ because it refers to a 'mandrake'.

And its the FaQ that clarifies the doom, is a Zoan. (Which we already knew)

if they got around to FaQing it, the Noviate would be an Honor guard, simply because he is a part of the Honor guard Squad.

Not all Honor Guard are Noviates, but all Noviates are Honor Guard.

puma713 wrote:By RAW, yes.

With that viewpoint, the game becomes unplayable. since Strict RAW is silly.

DeathReaper wrote:And its the FaQ that clarifies the doom, is a Zoan. (Which we already knew)

if they got around to FaQing it, the Noviate would be an Honor guard, simply because he is a part of the Honor guard Squad.

Not all Honor Guard are Noviates, but all Noviates are Honor Guard.

So why say "Any Honor Guard" and not "Any model"?

Because they are all Honor Guard they could have said any model and it would have made no difference.

The rules here are not so clear, so in the end play it how you want with your group of friends.

For Tournaments ask the TO before just to be sure.

Sanguinary novitiates are in a unit of honour guard rather than being honour guard themselves, with a separate profile. There is nothing saying you can upgrade them, so you can't.

grrr

By virtue of being in an honor guard unit, they are a part of the honor guard, so they are honor guard and they are called sanguinary noviates.

I have already found the flaw in your using the Mandrakes as a comparison to the Honour Guard. Sanguinary Novitiate is never upgrade from an Honour Guard he just exists there, the Nightfiend is an upgraded Mandrake. If this argument was about the Blood Champion I would be right there along side your argument for being able to take those upgrades but it isn't, it is about a model that isn't an upgrade to the model named for the upgrades. It is just like a Space Marine Tactical Squad, the Space Marine Sergent isn't available to take the Space Marine special or heavy weapons upgrades but he is available to take the Space Marine Sergent weapon upgrades.

DeathReaper wrote:By virtue of being in an honor guard unit, they are a part of the honor guard, so they are honor guard and they are called sanguinary noviates.

This is a weak argument at best. You're trying to say that just because a model is a part of unit, that they can take anything available to the unit, which isn't true. That would be like saying, "My Scout Sergeant, by virtue, has to be a Scout, so he can be the one that can take a Missile Launcher." Which is not true.

If Sanguinary Noviates were meant to be able to take wargear alongside their Honour Guard brethren, the text would've read:

"Any model may take. . ."

Instead, the text reads

"Any Honour Guard may. . ."

Which, when placed in context with the wording of the rest of the codex and other codices, leads you to believe that "Honour Guard" are emphasized so that you know to differentiate between them and anyone else in their unit composition.

DeathReaper wrote:@Scott-S6: The Mandrakes Unit is one such example as well.

No it isn't.

The unit name and model name are the same so it's another ambiguous example.

Can you find a single example where model name and unit name are different and unit name is referred to?

Ive got to agree with DeathReaper here. Besides, hypothetically, why wouldnt the sanguinary noviate be able to field what the rest of his squad can?
Also, hypothetically, why wouldnt he be able to field the same as a sanguinary priest? (except for terminator armour, obviously)
Another note is that, when youre comparing the Noviate to sergeants, they have different wargear (for example a chainsword and bolt pistol)
However, it says that the Noviate has all of the same basic weapons as the Honour Guard, the same exact weapons that are exchanged for the upgrades, so why not be able to?

The Honour guard in any SM codex (to my knowledge) have always been a very customisable squad. This is to "keep up" with whatever HQ they are taken with. Surely the codex would be shooting itself in the foot if you fielded the honour guard with storm shields and lightning claws, with one easy target in power armour. It simply makes no sense. Not that there is in 40K, but I believe that these are the RAI

BAFAQ wrote:Q: Can the Sanguinary Novitiate in the Honour Guard
take the upgrades that are available to the Honour
Guard? (p84)
A: No.

Of course that was added to the FAQ after the original discussion in this thread (thread necromancy is BAD especially if you give the wrong answer).

And just noticed that it's the poor guy's (yes assumption) very first dakka post.

do you have to have a sanguinary novtiate in your honour guard squad? AND IF SO IM UNSURE ON WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO COULD SOMEONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW AS IM PLANNING TO GET ONE SOON

the blood angel master wrote:do you have to have a sanguinary novtiate in your honour guard squad? AND IF SO IM UNSURE ON WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO COULD SOMEONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW AS IM PLANNING TO GET ONE SOON

It is all clearly explained in the codex. Do you have that yet?

yeah and it sais in compisition that it is 4 honour guards and 1 novtiate but is that
compulsury or just a possibility