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OK,

Question: On page 84 of the Blood Angels codex the weapons options for the Honour Guard use the word Honour Guard for all the weapon option upgrades. IE. "Any Honour Guard can replace his boltgun with whatever and ever..."

It says no where in that area that Sanguinary Novitiates can upgrade their weapons, is this how its supposed to be where Novitiates are stuck with basic chainsword/bolter/bolt pistol? Or is this yet another poor wording from our old pal Mat Ward?

I posted a comparison on my blog (knightsofbaal.blogspot.com) of Sanguinary Guard vs Honour Guard vs Vanguard Vets. I used a power fist on my novitiate and a commenter said you can't upgrade Novitiates, only Honour Guard.

So I guess my question is: Are Sanguinary Novitiates considered "Honour Guard" since they are in the unit of Honour Guard, or are they their own thing and can't get weapons upgrades?

My initial reaction is: They are like the sargeant to this unit and they are also like a sanguinary preist, I would ASSUME they get the finest upgrades they want like both of those models do in most units. From a fluff point of view it wouldn't make sense to me for them not to be able to take weapons upgrades...

What do you guys think?

The entry says 'Any Honour Guard can replace his' and the Sanguinary Novitiate is clearly listed as a different statline/name, so no they can't take those upgrades.

Bummer! Thanks for the response though!

pretre wrote:The entry says 'Any Honour Guard can replace his' and the Sanguinary Novitiate is clearly listed as a different statline/name, so no they can't take those upgrades.

That is one way to look at it.

However a Sanguinary Novitiate is still 'Honour Guard'

The issue is split, Some say no, some say yes.

it is poor wording on the part of the codex.

This thread covers a similar situation:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/405504.page

decide for yourself for now until they get around to FAQing it.

It won't be FAQ'ed as its clear. The UNIT is called honour guard but the novitiate is not an honour guard - he is a novitiate.

The Noviate is an Honor guard, Just like the Squad Leader is a long fang.

In fact all noviates are honor guard, but not all honor guard are noviates.

It is not as clear as you would like it to be.

I have to say, I halfway agree with DR on this issue but there is something I would like to point out, While the Noviate is a member of the Honour Guard, however unlike the Blood Champion he is not a Honour Guard model and therefore does not qualify for the upgrades of a Honour Guard model.

DeathReaper wrote:The Noviate is an Honor guard, Just like the Squad Leader is a long fang.

In fact all noviates are honor guard, but not all honor guard are noviates.

It is not as clear as you would like it to be.

The UNIT is called honour guard but the noviate is not... how is that not clear?

It is unclear because the Noviate is an Honor guard model, And any Honor guard can replace his boltgun with etc.

As for the blood champion, he can have any of the weapons available to any other honor guard model. He is a Blood Champion and an Honor guard model.

I guess we will just disagree then

DeathReaper wrote:It is unclear because the Noviate is an Honor guard model, And any Honor guard can replace his boltgun with etc.

As for the blood champion, he can have any of the weapons available to any other honor guard model. He is a Blood Champion and an Honor guard model.

This is unclear because the model name is identical to the unit name. What is the point of referring to the unit name when it could just say "any model", "any ork", etc of which there are many examples.

Can you offer any example where this is not the case and the options refer to the unit name, in order to support this argument?

Any Long Fang (except the Sergeant) can take a heavy weapon.

Why spell out the exception if the Sergeant isn't considered a Long Fang? Yes, I realize GW likes redundancy, but that's not a normal place for them to be redundant.

the options refer to the unit name in The Long fangs pack.

The long fangs are comprised of up to 5 long fangs and 1 Squad Leader.

The long fang entry states "Each Long fang, apart from the Squad leader, must replace his bolt pistol..."

The Squad Leader must indeed be a long fang, or there is no reason to include the "apart from the Squad Leader" text.

So without that caveat the Squad leader would have to replace his bolt pistol.

That is the example, since they clearly think the Squad Leader is a Long Fang.

That is why it is unclear.

@Massaen if it is clear to you, and not clear to others, there is no reason to disagree. By definition it is not clear if there are two opposing viewpoints.

I agree that it's unclear - it can be read either way, and different codexes appear to have different approaches...

rigeld2 wrote:Any Long Fang (except the Sergeant) can take a heavy weapon.

Why spell out the exception if the Sergeant isn't considered a Long Fang? Yes, I realize GW likes redundancy, but that's not a normal place for them to be redundant.

Maybe it was just to clarify on this exact point - that the upgrades refer to model name, not unit name.

As I said earlier - is there a single example of an upgrade referring to the unit name? (when the unit name and model name are different so that there is no ambiguity)

Yes, we gave you one.

The Long Fangs pack clearly refer to the unit name instead of the model name.

And can you provide a second example to prove that Long Fangs aren't just an anomaly?

You have your example, if you choose not to accept it, then I can not help you.

In other words, no you can't prove your claims that your correct and its not an anomaly.

In other words, I have found an example and do not have time to look for more.

If you guys can not accept that, then I can not help you.

Long fangs are not an example; they are an example of GW adding superfluous rules(A Long fang pack is comprised og Long fangs and a Squad leader; the upgrades are for long Fangs, not Long fang packs; which every model would be a member of).


Reavers in the DE codex would be an example where the basic troopers and the unit share a name: Reavers.

Then you have the unit leader of an arena champion.

Then you have 2 different sets of upgrades:

1) replacement of the splinter rifle s dependent on 3 models, and 1 "reaver" may make the exchange.

2) Additional fly-over weapon are 1 model per 3 "reavers".

So we run into some snags where we do not know what the author means: is a 3-man unit of Reavers that is comprised of 2 "Reavers" and 1 Arena Champion able to have both a heat-lance and a Cluster caltrops, and is the arena champion able to carry both?

Technically, since the basic trooper is named the exact same(and yes it must be exactly the same, adding "Pack", "squad", or "team" to the end for the unit name makes the basic troopers not the same as the unit name) as the unit-name; then the Arena champion may carry both the heat-lance and the Cluster caltrops in my above example, and they can both be taken with just the 3-man unit(this is because every model in the unit is a reaver-model, and the arena champion just has a better stat-line and increased weapon options).

There are several such examples in the DE codex.

The Necron codex has the same equivalency of Unit/Model name; but then they have no upgrade characters excepting heavy destroyers, which in turn the unit has no further options for either destroyers/Heavy destroyers

DeathReaper wrote:In other words, I have found an example and do not have time to look for more.
If you guys can not accept that, then I can not help you.

It's not an example because it is in no way clear that the Long Fangs example isn't referring to model name.

I do not have the DE book, so I could not look that up, ty Kel

How about scout bikes and the grenade launcher upgrade?
I don't have the book on hand (I'm at work), but I think that's a unit upgrade that you can give to the sarg.
I may be wrong, anyone have a book handy?

-Matt

The reaver example is flawed...

The units is called REAVERS

The model is called REAVER

The entry says, for every 3 models in the squad, one REAVER may replace his jetbikes...

One model per 3 REAVERS may take either a...

So to get a heat lance, i need 3 models and a normal reaver to carry it while to get a cluster caltrop i give it to one model per 3 reavers...

Also, the long fang pack is the ONLY unit in the SW codex to have a squad leader so its not suprising the language is very clear

Massaen wrote:The reaver example is flawed...

The units is called REAVERS

The model is called REAVER

The entry says, for every 3 models in the squad, one REAVER may replace his jetbikes...

One model per 3 REAVERS may take either a...

So to get a heat lance, i need 3 models and a normal reaver to carry it while to get a cluster caltrop i give it to one model per 3 reavers...

Also, the long fang pack is the ONLY unit in the SW codex to have a squad leader so its not suprising the language is very clear

Isn't that a case of the unit being made of several models, hence the plural?
Isn't the SW example Long Fangs, unit the model a Long Fang?

-Matt

Nope - it labeled differently exactly like the reavers.

The unit is called reavers made up of models called a reaver and a single model that may be an arena champion. The champ may have the caltrops but no the heat lance as he fulfils one of the requirments but no the other

Massaen wrote:Also, the long fang pack is the ONLY unit in the SW codex to have a squad leader so its not suprising the language is very clear

It also shows us that the Squad Leader IS a Long Fang.

HawaiiMatt wrote:How about scout bikes and the grenade launcher upgrade?
I don't have the book on hand (I'm at work), but I think that's a unit upgrade that you can give to the sarg.
I may be wrong, anyone have a book handy?

-Matt

By some peoples reading no model in the blood Angels scout bike squad can get the Astartes grenade launcher.

Since the "Scout Bike Squad" has a unit composition of "1 Scout Biker Sergeant" and "2 Scout Bikers"

Their Profiles list them as:
Scout Biker (Profile is listed)
Scout Biker Sergeant (Profile is listed)

The Astartes grenade launcher entry says "up to three Bikers can replace the twin linked boltgun with an Astartes grenade launcher"

There unit has no one named "Bikers" they are either a Scout Biker, or a Scout Biker Sergeant.

So who can take the upgrade?

You're just being asinine at this point aren't you?

Clearly the Sanginary priest cannot be upgraded. I have never even heard of a single person who thinks it can.

DeathReaper wrote:It also shows us that the Squad Leader IS a Long Fang.

No it doesn't.

It may be referring to the unit name or it may be referring to the model name with a note to clarify the situation.

Can you find a single unambiguous example? (where the model name and unit name are different and the unit name is referred to)