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DarknessEternal wrote:

English Assassin wrote: Was I asserting that the original Horus Heresy (Epic Space Marine rulebook, 1989) background is presently canonical?

That setting was completely invented by Jervis Johnson, by the way. Priestly invented the 40k setting in general. Jervis invented the Horus Heresy.

Sort of like some people say about Christianity; Jesus may have had some ideas, but Paul made it popular.

Small tidbit about the HH. Origionally Space Marine was supposed to have two factions in the box set, Space Marines and ? (probley orks everybody likes orkz right) but they spent too much on the molds for the plastic epic SM so they decided to do a 'cival war' game and thus the heresy was born. If you look at older fluff the HH was called the 'first interlegionary war'. It was his command bunker that was breached with IF's and orlandio Pius was the person who interposed himself between the Emperor and Horus fun times ....fun times =o]

DarknessEternal wrote:

English Assassin wrote: Was I asserting that the original Horus Heresy (Epic Space Marine rulebook, 1989) background is presently canonical?

That setting was completely invented by Jervis Johnson, by the way. Priestly invented the 40k setting in general. Jervis invented the Horus Heresy.

Sort of like some people say about Christianity; Jesus may have had some ideas, but Paul made it popular.

That was actually a non-heretical explanation...... goodjob.


Also, hasn't this topic been posted before?

I think originally the missing legions were supposed to allow people to make their own, but then later, they changed their plans and decided to tease people with it so eventually they'll reveal them and make profit, and no one will like it

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I think originally the missing legions were supposed to allow people to make their own, but then later, they changed their plans and decided to tease people with it so eventually they'll reveal them and make profit, and no one will like it

Why do I even bother..?

whoever said the blood ravens are the missing chapter needs to be shot. they were just recently destroyed and sacrificed to khorne via exterminatus by there chapter master to become an exalted demon prince, plus they were split off from the blood angels i belive, not dorns chapter, the hint is in the name -_-.
when horus was seeing the primarchs beneath the himalayas (or however its spelt) he saw one, thought of what would never be and smashed it in anger. if this container really did become smashed then i think i know what happend to it. with many worlds already under the influence of chaos in the form of pagan religions, i dont belive it is farfetched for one of the primarchs to be drawn into this as a chail. and with the container being smashed, the warp storm that stole the gene cham,bers would have direct contact with said primarch, most likely mutating him. so 1 primarch with a good chance of having turned to chaos. the second primarch could also have been corrupted, but theres also another unforgivable crime in the imperium that could have been comited bu an unknowing primarch. befreinding xeno's. a xenophobic emperor would most likely have killed a primarch if he thought there was no redeeming him. each of the primarchs are meant to represent a certain part of the emperors personality, maybe of these 2, one was his chaos side, another was his freinds with xeno's side. what we do know, is that leman russ, the emperors executioner side, was asked to kill the primarchs cos hes 'ard as nails. there legions were then given to rowboat girlyman this is proven when he is asked by a space wolf what he thinks about space marines fighting space marines, he replies "this is not the first time we have been called upon to fight our brothers" or words to that effect. but, one primarch turning ot chaos and one befreinding xeno's is purely speculation on my part, the final answers may be announced later on in the HH series but i guess we'll have to wait and see.

Not the Blood Angels either, but the Thousand Sons.

Nazgren wrote:whoever said the blood ravens are the missing chapter needs to be shot. they were just recently destroyed and sacrificed to khorne via exterminatus by there chapter master to become an exalted demon prince, plus they were split off from the blood angels i belive, not dorns chapter, the hint is in the name -_-.

-Missing Legion, not Chapter.
-According to "Space Marine" all hint's goes to Blood Ravens wining in "Retribution".
-It is hinted that they are decedents of Thousand Sons, but Kan drooped that theory down since there is no solid prof for that.
-Everybody has a right to dream, right? I dream that Blood Ravens are somehow connected to 2 lost Legions. If not one of two.

No proof either way but there are also the theories of them being Blood Angels or Raven Guard based on name and insignia which I discovered after my post.

Interestingly the Imperial Fist one is based around them apparently having some weapon that belonged to Dorn.

However there seems to be more in the way of the Thousand Sons theory.

n0t_u wrote:
Interestingly the Imperial Fist one is based around them apparently having some weapon that belonged to Dorn.

They also have wargear from all forces of the Imperium. From Gaurd to Sisters, from marines to Custodes.

But interesting they'd have a weapon called Rogal's Fist. I'm more learning to the TS side though.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:Small tidbit about the HH. Origionally Space Marine was supposed to have two factions in the box set, Space Marines and ? (probley orks everybody likes orkz right) but they spent too much on the molds for the plastic epic SM so they decided to do a 'cival war' game and thus the heresy was born. If you look at older fluff the HH was called the 'first interlegionary war'.

I've heard that before, and doubt its verisimilitude - at least in the way it's commonly repeated - both because the Heresy background had already been established a year earlier in Adeptus Titanicus - GW's first epic-scale game - and because Ork and Eldar rules and models (the original sprues with Battlewagons and Falcons) were released only a few months after Space Marine.

Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

1 - Dark Angels: The first legion, highly devout warriors from a death world, used to inspire fear in heretics (pre GK/Inquisition remember)
2 - ???
3 - Emperors Children: Exceptional ability, but vain. Highly decorative, extravagant style. Used to convey the awe and majesty of the Emperor's finest.
4 - Iron Warriors: Siege masters, used to destroy heavily fortified opponents
5 - White Scars: Tribal culture, fast striking. Used to combat fast moving enemies (like the Eldar)
6 - Space Wolves: Ferocious warriors, hunter culture, fiercely loyal. Used to match Ork ferrocity and as 'executioners' to the other legions.
7 - Imperial Fists: Stoic masters of defense, the antithesis of the Iron Warriors. Used to protect the Imperium's most important locations.
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.
10 - Iron Hands: Lots of bionics/tech upgrades. Perhaps a 'guinea pig' for future space marine upgrades, or a diplomatic link between the Emperor and the Adeptus Mechanicus (they were originally formed to be independent from the rest of Imperium) .
11 - ???
12 - World Eaters: The 'shock and awe' legion. Even the Wolves don't have the ferocity of the World Eaters. Perhaps designed to be an 'attack dog' by the Emperor?
13 - Ultramarines: A shining example of the Emperor's combat doctrine. Reliable. Used as an example of obedience to the other legions.
14 - Death Guard/Dusk Raiders - Stoic and unrelenting, conveying the futility of fighting the Great Crusade.
15 - Thousand Sons: The Emperors experiment in breeding a legion of warrior-psykers.
16 - Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus - a legion created using low-class human stock from hive worlds. A message to the universe that anyone can not only becoming a fearsome soldier of the Emperor, but they can fight with pride in his Warmaster's legion.
17 - Word Bearers - Even more pious than the Dark Angels, perhaps conceived to combat highly religious enemies (fight fire with fire?)
18 - Salamanders: Close quarters shooting specialists, perfect for fighting in cities.
19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion - The original 'covert ops' legion.

So we have a wide array of specializations. Sure, Space Marines can fight in any environment, but the Emperor probably wouldn't have asked the Alpha Legion to fortify a threatened Forge World would he? Remember that the Primarchs were created at the same time, so there probably wouldn't be any redundancy between legions.

From what I can see, the obvious gaps in the legion's traits are water-based specialists and an airborn legion for when the Imperial Navy just can't cut it. Having said that, Dorn's musings in the statue room indicate the missing legion's purpose was a lot more profound than that. Maybe the second legion was destined to be the legion that conquered the webway?

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

They're airbourne foot troops sure, but what about actual high-speed aerial combat? Jump packs only last so long, and drop pods only go down. Thunderhawks and Stormravens aren't designed for high speed/high altitude combat.

ClosetRoller wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote: and an airborn legion

All marines are aerial assault troops. It's their standard doctrine.

They're airbourne foot troops sure, but what about actual high-speed aerial combat? Jump packs only last so long, and drop pods only go down. Thunderhawks and Stormravens aren't designed for high speed/high altitude combat.

Marines are elite shock troops. They are good pilots but can achieve much more as shock troops.

ClosetRoller wrote:
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.

19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion---

I would argue these guys to some extent... The Night Lords fluff indicates that Curze was a very vigilante "batman" with a Jack the Ripper edge... To me this represents more of a Judge Dredd sort of aspect, where the Law is the Law, and if you cross it, you WILL pay, and pay dearly.

Blood Angels have been described as artistic, yet coming from fiercely tribal society, they value art and beauty, yet do not display the vanity of the EC. I would think that their "designed" role was more in line with duplicating the EC, as far as preserving the arts, etc. but they also have a tendency to fight with jump packs and up close (if current fluff is any indication of their legionary tactics)

The Raven Guard are indeed guerillas, however, VERY different from White Scars and Salamanders. The RG prefer striking the most critical asset of the enemy, destroying their ability to fight, before they begin to lose too many assets in turn. These guys are much more like our current Navy SEALS, or Green Berets in use. The RG aren't particularly "jungle fighters" because their planet is heavily industrialized and urban, rather than wild, and unkempt by humans.

The Alpha Legion, in fact, represent more of an espionage and infiltration aspect of war. If it comes to shooting, sure they are good for it (they are marines for Feths sake!), but to them ( at least in the HH novels) something went wrong if they end up in a true firefight.. In Legion, there is a scene where a group of them ambush and slaughter people, but they set it up to where there was no real chance for them to take losses. However, they do prefer to infiltrate and sabotage, rather than actually engage an enemy. This is similar in vein to the Raven Guard, but even less fighting than the XIX Legion.

While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines were unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

ClosetRoller wrote:While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines are unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

There is some small evidence that they were rinsed by the SW...

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:
8 - Night Lords: Fiercely secular. Maybe used to spread the Emperor's atheistic message? (Worship a god and the Night Lords will get you!)
9 - Blood Angels: Fierce warriors with a strong gene seed. Perhaps the Emperor imagined them as the 'protectors' of his gene seed methods.

19 - Raven Guard: Similar to White Scars and Salamanders - fast striking guerilla fighters. Perfect for jungle warfare.
20 - Alpha Legion---

I would argue these guys to some extent... The Night Lords fluff indicates that Curze was a very vigilante "batman" with a Jack the Ripper edge... To me this represents more of a Judge Dredd sort of aspect, where the Law is the Law, and if you cross it, you WILL pay, and pay dearly.

Blood Angels have been described as artistic, yet coming from fiercely tribal society, they value art and beauty, yet do not display the vanity of the EC. I would think that their "designed" role was more in line with duplicating the EC, as far as preserving the arts, etc. but they also have a tendency to fight with jump packs and up close (if current fluff is any indication of their legionary tactics)

The Raven Guard are indeed guerillas, however, VERY different from White Scars and Salamanders. The RG prefer striking the most critical asset of the enemy, destroying their ability to fight, before they begin to lose too many assets in turn. These guys are much more like our current Navy SEALS, or Green Berets in use. The RG aren't particularly "jungle fighters" because their planet is heavily industrialized and urban, rather than wild, and unkempt by humans.

The Alpha Legion, in fact, represent more of an espionage and infiltration aspect of war. If it comes to shooting, sure they are good for it (they are marines for Feths sake!), but to them ( at least in the HH novels) something went wrong if they end up in a true firefight.. In Legion, there is a scene where a group of them ambush and slaughter people, but they set it up to where there was no real chance for them to take losses. However, they do prefer to infiltrate and sabotage, rather than actually engage an enemy. This is similar in vein to the Raven Guard, but even less fighting than the XIX Legion.

Excellent points! Those legions are the ones I'm least familiar with, so I was expecting to be called up on it care to speculate on what's missing from the legion roles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:While that's true, its not too hard to imagine a situation in a planet's atmosphere where Imperial Navy fighter pilots were outclassed and Marines are unable to strike a ground based target. A legion doctrine that supported extended high-altitude air-to-air combat would be a powerful tool. Like I said in my original post, I doubt this is actually an answer to the missing chapters, but it's interesting to note the potential chink in astartes armour.

I think what's more likely is that the 2nd legion were sent into the webway, where some untold horror spelt their doom.

There is some small evidence that they were rinsed by the SW...

Ah yes, forgot about that. Maybe they were corrupted, dismissing the teachings of the Emperor in favor of fealty to Khaine? I can imagine the Wolves going apeshit over that.

I am not sure whats "missing" exactly.. Marines are good in each role of warfare, or have support from Naval units where they aren't used (such as Airpower missions)

That said, about the only thing I can think of, is Heavy Cavalry forces, yet this is generally a style of warfare that Marines are actually using.. The heavy Cav is a concept in which troops ride to battle in transports, supported by battle tanks, there are complete armor companies, as well as artillery companies (all called troops, not companies)

When looking at what is needed in the GC.. There are no "civil engineers" in the Legions, however in each HH books, there are civilian humans who fulfill this role. As is the case with most of the rebuilding efforts carried out in the GC.

That being said, the 2nd and 11th Legions, when they existed had to have done SOMETHING to warrant their removal from all existence.

As I understand it from those old books about the chaos gods(the names elude me) one of the primarchs was Sigmar from fantasy the other Im not sure about...

gh05tdemon wrote:As I understand it from those old books about the chaos gods(the names elude me) one of the primarchs was Sigmar from fantasy the other Im not sure about...

That was retconned...

Yeah I remember some talk about the WHFB world being situated in the Eye of Terror, with Sigmar as one of the primarchs. Kind of like a pet project for the Chaos Gods. A nice idea, but GW decided to distance 40k from the fantasy setting. Also the reason they discontinued Squats.

Night Lords are void/ ship to ship combat.

Blood Angles do not have a "pure gene-seed".

English Assassin wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:I think originally the missing legions were supposed to allow people to make their own, but then later, they changed their plans and decided to tease people with it so eventually they'll reveal them and make profit, and no one will like it

Why do I even bother..?

Because some of people don't get it the first time..... like me

ClosetRoller wrote: Maybe the second legion was destined to be the legion that conquered the webway?

I really like this idea, It would fit with the "lost legion" and still leave the "purged" SW theory there up for grabs. And you could link it to the missing statue quote from earlier on (cant find the quote )

It could have been the inspiration for the Grey Knights being founded? (Im not saying they are grey knights, but provided the idea?)

Yeah it works quite nicely. Of course we'll never know, but it's a nice interpretation.

Have you read Flight of the Eisenstein? I think the impetus for starting the GK/Inquisition were the events that happened on the Eisenstein when the Geller field failed. The final chapter of that book is basically a High Lord of Terra (I think?) briefing Garro and his remaining homies on starting the Inq.

I have but i cant remember the ending clearly, ill have to dig it out for a look. The geller field failure and the fighting that ensues is pretty ineresting and dramtic!
Reading through the HH series is too addictive.....

ClosetRoller wrote:Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

English Assassin wrote:
Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

Deliverance Lost on the other hand seems to imply that the Emperor did experiment with the Primarch Genes, most noticeably the Space Wolves.

Although I do agree that it is the upbringing of the Primarchs on their respective worlds which would make the Legions what they are.

If the Primarchs had never been scattered who knows what the Legions would have been like. Loyal would be the one major thing.

I do have a theory that the Emperor knew that something would happen with his children and created a copy of each one in case one was lost, so to speak. Certain Primarchs share capabilities that are pretty close to another, Dorn and Perturabo for example, to be just mere coincidence.

English Assassin wrote:

ClosetRoller wrote:Presumably the Emperor created the legions to perform specific functions. If we narrow down what the original legion's functions are, it'll give us a clue to the nature of the missing legions.

Unfortunately, interesting as this notion might be, it is founded on a false premise. All of the material published on the Astartes Legions emphasises the influence of their Primarchs upon their character and their method of warfare, and the Primarchs' background stories make it very clear that they were shaped by the disparate worlds and societies in which they were raised.

Moreover there is no positive evidence to suggest that the Emperor intended his sons to develop particular individual characteristics (and it would stretch credulity to presume that each coincidentally landed in an appropriate environment). Indeed one might in fact infer from 'The Outcast Dead' that the Emperor created the Primarchs solely for the purpose of using their cells to stabilise the genetically- and surgically-enhanced warriors with which he would wage the Great Crusade.

Likewise, the assumption, in the absence of better information, should be that the Terran Legions, prior to the rediscovery of the Primarchs were relatively homogeneous, differentiated only by whatever traditions they had developed themselves over time (traditions subsequently absorbed or supplanted by those of their Primarchs' worlds).

Relatively homogenous? I remember reading (in Tales of Heresy) that the War Hounds (Pre-Angron World Eaters) were pretty terrifying on the field, and the Thousand Sons were prone to genetic defects and also had a high concentration of pskers in their midst. This can't be coincidence and merely something each legion developed over time, can it?

The way I see it is the Emp did plan out certain roles for his Primarchs, but perhaps not in the way we see them. There is no doubt though that the worlds they landed on shaped them into what they are and perhaps in some cases deviated from the path the Big E saw for them.

in short
Legions made for specific roles, Primarchs altered slightly from their roles due to planets.