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My opinion in the case of the missing Primarch's is this:

Athe the moment the GW have intentionally left them out and I belive they have given authority to the Authors of novels to refer to them VERY briefly. With them been spoken and refered to more and more in the HH series I think we may yet find out more fluff on one or both of the missing Primarch and their legions fates.

Looking at this logically and using any fluff I have, I have ruled out some legions who could be mistaken for them:

Grey Knights: Formed as part of the second founding from hand picked members from around ALL of the legions, Loyalist and Rebel.
The Emperor knew there was more dangerous things out there that even the Astartes were not prepered to face, so he entrusted Malcador with forming a Chapter of Demon Slayers, whose faith and loyalty alone are without reproach.
Listen to the Garro audiobooks to know more.

Deathwatch: Again a Chapter of Specialist's whom Specialise in Xenos Slaying and also recovering Xenos tech.
Is composed of Hand picked and Volunteers from all of the Loyalist Legions, there is enough fluff out there to discount them being a missing legion.

Blood Ravens: A Loyalist splinter of the Thousand Sons Legion, but to hide the shame were drip fed stories from the beginning about them being connected to the Imperial Fists Legion.

Black Templars: We know for sure that this was the first Chapter the Imperial Fists form with the Original Emperors Champion and First Captain Sigsmund as the First Chapter Master.

The only Legion I can think of which could possibly be linked in my opinion is the Legion of the Dammed, although the fact that Girlymans legion was ridculously massive could suggest that one of the missing legions was given to the Ultramarines

Any Thoughts?

81Northman wrote:

The only Legion I can think of which could possibly be linked in my opinion is the Legion of the Dammed, although the fact that Girlymans legion was ridculously massive could suggest that one of the missing legions was given to the Ultramarines

Any Thoughts?

The existing fluff, as I know it, would suggest that a chapter of the 21st founding known as the Fire Hawks went into the warp and never came out. It is believed by some that these Fire Hawks became the LotD because of some actions during battle at some point or another, blah blah blah. While I think that this could be true in part, I also think that it is *POSSIBLE* that the LotD was originally one of the 2 missing legions, yet when a chapter is lost in its entirety to the warp, they could possibly "join" or otherwise become the Legion of the Damned.

All we know of the missing primarchs so far is they were purged from memory and records during the Great Crusade. We know this is highly unusual and will take a betrayal as big as Magnus to bring the wrath of the Emperor down upon a primarch. So what can cause a legion to be erased from the memory of mankind? Fall to chaos? Betrayal? Tampering with unknown technology? Maybe even refusal of Imperial decree?

Here's another theory as to their fates.

Hahahahahaha, thats brilliant,

on a more serious note though

LumenPraebeo wrote:All we know of the missing primarchs so far is they were purged from memory and records during the Great Crusade. We know this is highly unusual and will take a betrayal as big as Magnus to bring the wrath of the Emperor down upon a primarch. So what can cause a legion to be erased from the memory of mankind? Fall to chaos? Betrayal? Tampering with unknown technology? Maybe even refusal of Imperial decree?

I think this could suggest that the Horus Heresy wasn't the first time some one decided to try and become master(s) of mankind.

Any thoughts?

Russ said that the assault on Prospero wasn't the first time the Space Wolves were called on to destroy a legion, or something similar. Either mass possession or a grab for power seems to be the only reason that such a thing would happen.

I remember reading that too, this would almost certainly poit to the fact that Russ and the Space Wolves wiped out one of the missing legions then perhaps killed the other primarch and the other legion got joined with Girlymans legion

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Two_unknown_legions

81Northman wrote:I remember reading that too, this would almost certainly poit to the fact that Russ and the Space Wolves wiped out one of the missing legions then perhaps killed the other primarch and the other legion got joined with Girlymans legion

No. All we actually know is that the Space Wolves had been called upon to fight their fellow Astartes before the assault on Prospero, and that one of the Word Bearers speculated that the Ultramarines had absorbed one (or both) of the defunct Legions. Anything more specific than that, however, is guesswork.

The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Lorgar has the empeors skill with words and is the master orator, while Fulgrim has the Emperors pride and vanity. Magnus is the only being in the galaxy with the same or near psyker power of the Emperor. And Sanguinius was the only primarch with the most qualities of the Emperor as a whole, which is why he should have been Warmaster, because he wouldn't have been swayed so easily.

The worlds shaped them, but they were already made of what they would become. But as they were born of the Dark Gods and the Emperor, and their personalities and genetics created by both, its quite likely that the gods directed the Primarchs to worlds where they would either be more controllable, or would reach their true potential. Lorgar travelled through Calth before landing on Colchois I believe. According to The First Heretic.

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Lorgar has the empeors skill with words and is the master orator, while Fulgrim has the Emperors pride and vanity. Magnus is the only being in the galaxy with the same or near psyker power of the Emperor. And Sanguinius was the only primarch with the most qualities of the Emperor as a whole, which is why he should have been Warmaster, because he wouldn't have been swayed so easily.

The worlds shaped them, but they were already made of what they would become. But as they were born of the Dark Gods and the Emperor, and their personalities and genetics created by both, its quite likely that the gods directed the Primarchs to worlds where they would either be more controllable, or would reach their true potential. Lorgar travelled through Calth before landing on Colchois I believe. According to The First Heretic.

^that's a theory I'm more inclined to believe after reading first heretic. Shows that Chaos had a hand in the development of the primarchs.

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor.

Sort of, but not quite. They were built for different specific jobs, not as a disintegrated Emperor.

Regarding deathwatch as one of the missing legions I believe that they are just space marines that are seconded from their chapters as was writtne in one of the uriel ventris novels as it had (just off the top of my head) white scars ,imperial fists and also space wolves.
And as for the sarcophagus on the grey knight planet could also just be the remains of malcador the sigilite or their first leader

Based on First Heretic, it's clear that Magnus and Lorgar knew what happened to the 2nd and 11th Primarchs. It's not clear if all 20 primarchs were found before the 2nd and 11th were erased or not, but it seems reasonable that all 18 knew what happened to them.

What was so horrible, and what oaths so binding, that the traitor primachs wouldn't discuss it, and even use it to taunt the loyalists if possible? That's the question that gnaws at me with any discussion about the lost legions. Magnus doesn't taunt Russ with it, "Oh, you've come to kill me just like you dropped Deuce?" Angron's lobbing off all the skulls he can, chasing Corax through the mountains of Istvaan, but not taunting him with, "You'll die just like Ferrus and Eleven!"

I'm guessing that GW will eventually reveal what happened to them. And like a lot of things in life, the anticipation will have been better than the unveiling and most of us will be a little disappointed that it wasn't more incredible. "Huh, so one of them just got lost in the warp, and the other dabbled in sorcery and was wiped out by Russ."

Fabricator wrote:The Primarchs were engineered to be a different aspect of the Emperor. And yes the world they landed on shaped their approach to that role but at their core was what they were created to be. We find this out in either the 2nd or 3rd novel of the HH as horus explains it too us. Telling us an example of the role that each primarch plays and what aspect they are. It is also mentioned several times later through the series, each time in more detail for some and less for others.

Unless I misremember, this is all presented as in-character speculation, not the word of the all-knowing narrator.

81Northman wrote:I think this could suggest that the Horus Heresy wasn't the first time some one decided to try and become master(s) of mankind.

Dorn, in (if I recall correctly) the Lightning Tower, indeed observes that in retrospect, the fates of the two unknown Primarchs foreshadowed the Heresy. That does not necessarily imply anything so obvious as one (or both) of them rebelling and attempting to overthrow the Emperor, indeed the oft-repeated assertion that Horus' rebellion was "unthinkable", and that their fates were described as "tragedies" suggests that something more complicated occurred.

Maybe one of the pods just ended up in a sarlaac pit...

Or in a volcano? or into a star?

I mean other primarchs have landed in inhospitable environments where life struggles to survive, but what if they landed somewhere where nothing short of godhood would allow them to survive

No, it's been confirmed that all twenty Primarchs were recovered and united with their legions. In, "The Lightning Tower", for instance, we see that statues were raised of all twenty, and learn that the remaining eighteen took oaths never to speak of their missing brothers.

The missing primarchs could have grown up on a world with a high degree of chaos influence.

the big E finds and reunites them and then they turn rouge.

in the HH books some of the worlds mentioned have religions influenced by chaos that leads to insurgency against imperial rule

I actually really like the Malice theory. They were found and at some point during the Crusade, when the Emperor was gathering a significant Warp presence, they became aware of the Chaos gods and all started praying to the Emperor. But this went against why they were originally created; to fight chaos if it ever rose. So the Emperor ordered them killed, just like he had with another legion recently. They caught wind of it and fled to the Warp. But all their prayer spawned a minor entity, weak but definitely there. Now they follow this entity and carry out the work they were always meant to do.

It's believed that the SW took out a legion very early on, before the HH. To prevent other legions joining them, they were purged quickly and records of their existence removed.

The other (my personal favourite) is thought to have tasked themselves with taking the Great Crusade and the will of the Emperor beyond the Milky Way and headed off to another galaxy, probably Andromeda.

What were the two again? the purged and the forgotten?

The purged definitely goes with the theory that the SW's wiped out one legion, the forgotten(?)... I dunno, didn't logar say something about it while pointing his finger at the Ultrasmurfs?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:What were the two again? the purged and the forgotten?

The purged definitely goes with the theory that the SW's wiped out one legion, the forgotten(?)... I dunno, didn't logar say something about it while pointing his finger at the Ultrasmurfs?

Lorgar didn't, but some of the Word Bearers made comments that the Ultramarines gained numbers about the time the 2nd and/or 11th were expunged. Lorgar told his men to stop gossiping, but also didn't say that they were wrong.

For my carcharodons I am going to write my own fluff. My fluff is going to include what happened to the missing two.

And also, since we know nothing of the other two, who is to say they weren't found first before Horus.

I like to think, from time to time, one of the lost primarch currently is chilling in stasis in Trazyn's gallery.
That, or maybe Corax, Vulkan, Russ, ect

Brother Coa wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Blood Ravens are 21st Founding chapter using experimental 1K sons geneseed, Minotaurs are the same except with World Eaters. Would explain their annoying mysteriousness for sure.

Buttons wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

DeffDred wrote:
As for "The Lost", perhaps they were actually lost. Either in a tragic warp accident, gene-seed failure or turned to the runious powers.

Spoiler:

Maybe they are in fact Blood Ravens?

I just hope so...

Blood Ravens are 21st Founding chapter using experimental 1K sons geneseed, Minotaurs are the same except with World Eaters. Would explain their annoying mysteriousness for sure.

Source please

Having one of the legions tasked to conquer the webway and getting lost sounds cool, but for their records to have been deleted maybe it was thought by most that they had abandoned the emporer. But theres a prophecy that as the emporer finally dies they will find their way to the terra webway portal and prevent the hordes of chaos from escaping it or something.
Having a primarch fall to chaos well before the HH makes the primarchs and emps actions before and during the HH really stupid. Only a betrayal with a xenos makes sense, maybe this betrayal is the reason the deathwatch now exists. Also the primarch might have landed on a human planet ruled by an artificial intelligence. And he got implanted with an A.I sort of like being possessed, he was stricken from the records because th A.I had made him the greatest primarch. Im just throwing what i think are some reasonable things out there.
sorry for the old thread its my first day.

In False Gods... When Horus is in the Davinite temple, and being shown around by Erebus... When he is confronted by the Legio Custodes... He smacks the incubator marked XI... and it cracks...

I am under the impression that the XI primarch never hatched...

I don't care what GW says. One of the missing Primarchs will always be Sigmar in my book!

I have skimmed through the past few pages and I apologize if someone did mention it already. I am surprised no one mentioned Fear to Tread (the HH Blood Angels novel, hope i have the title right).

Anyway in the beginning of the book Sanguinius is on campaign with Horus (already evil Horus). Sanguinius excuses himself to go deal with another BA fallen to the black rage. Horus follows him and watches as Sanguinius tries to first reason with the enraged warrior and then ultimately kills him. Horus confronts Sanguinius and Sanguinius asks Horus not to tell the emperor. I believe he (sanguinius) says something along the lines of , I will not have the blood angels suffer the same fate as those "other" legions that were expunged from imperial records.

I took the implementation to mean that the 2 expunged legions had some deep genetic flaw that inhibited their ability to function on any normal level. Perhaps both legions divulged into a black rage or some other similarly catastrophic episode that could not be rectified.