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Lets look at the counter part of the Chimera, the Rhino. True, the Rhino houses better troops, but, not near as strong on the armor. The Chimera is mainly the means for your melta/plasma vets to get in range of something to target. Even though there are unit out there to smash it up, it is still a good piece of equipment. Plus, what other options do the IG have that don't take up a force organization spot?

martin74 wrote:Lets look at the counter part of the Chimera, the Rhino. True, the Rhino houses better troops, but, not near as strong on the armor. The Chimera is mainly the means for your melta/plasma vets to get in range of something to target. Even though there are unit out there to smash it up, it is still a good piece of equipment. Plus, what other options do the IG have that don't take up a force organization spot?

Or Eldar? My Hydras love them!

What comparison are you making that the Chimera is obsolete anyway? If you look at dedicated transports, it may be the top outside of the Landraider, that only can be used once as one. The Chimera, how many can you use in a list, as many as the points and troops allow.

All other dedicated troop transports are just as fragile against all that you listed in your post at the beginning of this thread.

Roboute wrote:Newer armies have a greater amount of S8, but that doesn't make the Chimera into a coffin

I agree. We saw massed S8 the moment the SW codex hit, and while it did decrease the power of the chimera, it is not enough. As you say, AV12 with 4+ cover is reasonably survivable against S8 shooting (my manticore survives the game 9/10 times), and even massed S8 do not invalidate the phalanx f.ex. It is that every army masses S6-9 shooting combined with the other common units I mentioned. You can't phalanx against scarabs+wraiths, thundercav, assault termies, beastmasters, manticores etc, which means that you will expose side armour to the S6-9 shooting.

Mech IG list use for Troops?

Of course, if you want to play a totally meched list, you have to use chimera...

Roboute wrote:hybrid list (less competitive)

Sure about that? It was like that before, but, as you say yourself:

Roboute wrote:The Mech IG list may have dropped in overall effectiveness

Mech IG has weakened for a number of reasons, most have with the reduced usability of the chimera.
The IG codex has a lot of options, why not use some of those options to meet whatever need you have in a better way than the chimera?

alarmingrick wrote:You do realize what you say about the Chimera applies to ALL Sentinels, and all nonRuss HS choices.

No, it doesn't. Units like the manticore, vendettas and hydras are still very competitive. They have great firepower for their pts, and IMO, they are not dependent on filling your list with chimeras to work.

I feel you're being too fatalistic about it. It's getting harder sure, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Of course not. It's not like IG are suddenly unusable. My point is that if you want top competitiveness from IG lists, then the chimera is "generally" a liability. (with some exceptions) Having 10 is certainly detracting from your list.

Roboute wrote:If we're talking a competitive mech IG list, your FA and Heavy slots are already filled with Vendettas, Manticores and other artillery sprinkled to taste.

Depend on pts of course, but I often find myself having to take a slightly worse FA or Heavy choice than what I would have wanted in a perfect world. Not spending pts on chimeras allow me to have the following heavy support in 1500pts:
Executioner, plasma sponsons
Executioner, plasma sponsons
Manticore

Instead of what I usually had:
2xHydra
Basilisk
Manticore

At higher pts, your ability to make your fast or heavy choices better decreases drastically of course, which is where you ask youself what you need now. Then you spend on units that meet that need best. Meltavets are not a totally dead choice, but including four units of them as your only troop is probably not the best choice most of the time anymore. If you need to hold objectives in your zone, normal platoon does it better. (you don't even have to do blobs all the time) If you need to take enemy objectives, Al'Rahem does it better. If you need to get melta to scary enemy vehicle, stormies do it better, if you need to screen your firepower-vehicles, infantry does it better etc.

martin74 wrote:All other dedicated troop transports are just as fragile against all that you listed in your post at the beginning of this thread.

No, they are not. The unit inside the rhino/razor is not dead when the transport bites it. The razor has much better firepower than the chimera (and can be customized to meet whatever firepower need your list has). The rhino is cheaper than the chimera, and while the front armour is lower, it does not have those long AV10 sides, and the content is usually much deadlier. (except tactical marines - but they suck on their own, not because of their transport)