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It has been a slow and steady decline for the chimera. When the 5th ed IG codex came out, the chimera was awesome. It could be spammed like no other and the AV12 wall was a game-winner. It reached its peak with the infamous "leafblower" lists, where it's main role was to add more AV12 to the wall. The chimera was one of the reasons IG was the most feared army for a long time.

The first major decline was with the SW codex. Suddenly, we got to know ranged S8+ spam with the ability to reach out and mess with many targets each turn. The SW codex also brought another threat to the AV12 walls.. thundercav. In your face on turn 2, madly survivable and each one able to smash a chimera to pieces. The chimera phalanx sure didn't like being multi-charged by one of those units.

The release of blood angels added another (lighter) hit to the chimera. BA's bring the ability to pin-point deepstrike melta, meaning that it suddenly became more interesting to have squads on foot to protect valuable vehicles from DS meltaguns. BA's also continued the trend of S8+ weapon spam, but brought it up a bit with fast preds, cheap razorbacks and outflanking assault cannons. Las/plas vs multilaser/heavy flamer is a bad matchup, and suddenly, marines can bring almost as many as we can, but the content of theirs don't die when the transport explodes. BA's also add to the trend of survivable deathstars capable of launching early-game multi-assaults. My own BA dual-raider army has smashed apart countless chimera hulls.

The next hit was a huge one. Necrons were the nightmare match-up for IG back in 4th, and it is looking like necrons once again can become a hated enemy of IG. Let's start with the worst of the worst for the poor chimera and it's artillery cousins: Imotekh the stormlord. This guy can win the game against mech IG by himself with a few lucky roles. Add some solar pulses, and you don't even have to be very lucky anymore. D6 S8 hits against side armour 10? Ouch!
Add scarabs and wraiths to the mix, and those once safe metal boxes are looking more and more like coffins, with each new army hammering another nail in it.

The latest army, GK's continue the trend of both S8+ spam and madly survivable deathstars. They also add the vindicare and tons of psycannons to the mix and pretty much every unit can boost their strength to 5, meaning they can easily rip through the soft AV10 rear of the chimera. Fortitude makes S6 shooting less useful, as glancing just won't do anything to their vehicles.

As the amount of stuff that very reliably kills chimeras keep increasing, the chimera is looking more and more obsolete. I once felt the chimera was the best light/medium transport, but that title has been lost to the (GK or BA) razorback for a long time now.

The chimera is just getting fewer and fewer roles. It is not a good way to keep infantry alive, as exploding chimeras tend to be cause of death number 2 for the humble guardsmen. (after close combat - before enemy shooting)
AV12 is not very durable anymore. It is durable for something like marines, but when your passengers generally die if it is destroyed, AV12 is not enough.

The AV10 sides mean that the chimera is more of a bunker than a transport. You won't get chimeras over the table against most opponents, as any chimera exposing it's side armour to the enemy is generally dead. The chimera phalanx worked against this for a while, but pretty much every army includes a deathstar or some other assault unit which makes the phalanx a death-sentence to your entire formation. (beasts, thundercav, assault termies in raider, wraiths, scarabs etc)

So, the chimera is not a transport, and when used as a bunker, it generally gets it's occupants killed faster than if they had been on foot, so it doesn't really work as a bunker anymore either.

In my hybrid lists, I generally included four chimeras minimum. That is a minimum of 220pts spent on units that:
1: Add heavily to my KP count
2: Pretty much always dies
3: Doesn't really kill much itself
4: Cripples the squad inside and hurts surrounding infantry when #2 happens.
5: Has too much AV10 to get me more than a 12" shunt out of my DZ before exposing it and ending up with #2

Granted, it is still possible to use the chimera effectively. One example of such a use is the PCS with 4 flamers in a chimera. However, the chimera seems to have lost much of it's use in many cases. The four chimeras always included in my lists will probably go down to zero, with only some special exceptions for units that actually do benefit a lot from a chimera. My PBS for example are walking from now on.

The extra pts gained from this can go directly into whatever I feel my list is lacking. It can be pure firepower (executioner with plasmasponsons? 3xHydra?), it can be increased survivability (30ish guardsmen with gear? 20-man powerblob?) or it can be mobility through outflank and DS (2x meltastormies? Al'Rahem?)

Some might say that you need more chimeras for them to be effective, you need eight! or ten!!! Well, technically, they are right, it does become slightly more effective if you really spam them, but then you're spending immense amounts of pts on those bunkers, and loosing out in real killing power. In the end, you are weakening your list. I've played against armies with ten chimeras and totally stomped them. Chimeras are not hard to kill if you come equipped (manticores f.ex.) and as your opponent has spent so much on the chimeras, he isn't able to silence your guns quickly enough.



TLDR. Spending pts on a unit that generally does not increase survivability by much and that does not give a significant mobility increase when weighted against the risk and that drastically increases the chance to loose KP's = bad. Spend the pts on more firepower, more men, different kind of mobility/whatever your list needs.

Wow...just wow...

The Chimera is still amazing. For 55 points you get a transport for your melta vets (which they need desperately), a H Flamer to give them some anti infantry firepower, and a S6 weapon to help against light tranports/MCs at range. The Chimera is still one of the most versatile and cost effective transports around, due to its weapon configuration, and more importantly, the ability to fire 5 weapons out of the top, an absolute must for any mech-vets list. In my lists it is usually 3 Vends, 3 Russ varients, then Chimeras; my Chimeras do just fine.

As for Newcrons? I have yet to lose against them with my IG. Scarabs die horribly to LRBTs and other pie plates; heck, they even die horribly to massed SL fire from those Chimeras you hate so much. (you can even sacrifice one Chimera to bunch them up, then roll up with a H flamer if your LRBTs failed to wipe them out first), and Wraiths die to volume of fire. As for the Stormlord, simply going second, starting in reserve, and rolling on (with or w/o an astropath - though I prefer with) works wonders; it will take extreme luck for him to both keep the storm going and get the 6s he needs to kill much of anything; plus, IG has searchlights EVERYWHERE, including scouting Vends/Valks, so nightfighting is not the big of a deal.

Actually, the Chimeras you find so obsolete are fantastic against Newcrons. They have the weapons to insta-gib Scarabs (SLs), plus a heavy flamer if the scarabs get too close. They keep you mobile, making it harder to get hit by wriaths, espeically if you "sacrifice" a couple as blockers by zipping them over 6" and forcing the wraith to need 6s to hit, then you just shoot the wraith dead. Plus, every Chimera has serachlights standard, which helps against night fighting. En masse, they can present quite a problem for Newcrons, if used properly. What are you complaining about again?

I think the problem is not with your chimeras. Based on what you've written, I think the problem is with your hybrid list. IG hybrid lists have been growing steadily less powerful with each of the changes you've listed.

The problem is that four chimeras is not enough. Every army has enough medium AT to deal with four chimeras. You need 8-9 chimeras, plus fire support, and let somebody try to deal with that.

Also, hybrid lists tend to want to use chimeras as static bunkers, or as lone-wolf objective grabbers or suicide units. Of course you'll lose more chimeras if you leave them sitting in your deployment or send them out on their own.

A chimera wall maneuvers together, so that the tanks can provide mutual support, cover each other's sides, and so that losing one or two doesn't diminish the deadliness of your mobile killing field.

Mech up, or go footslogging.

I did touch upon chimeras becoming more effective when spammed (like most things), but as I said, there are big negatives to this. You are spending 440-495pts on those 8-9 chimeras. To get that many, you also have to shove normal guys into them (barring extreme pts-limits), a unit that really doesn't benefit from chimeras. Chimera-phalanx is reasonably survivable against S8 spam from the front, but is horribly fragile against close combat and some other stuff (like artillery). 8-9 chimeras are also A LOT of easy kill points, and you are spending close to 500pts on something that has very little killing power.

"simply going second" - yes.... your opponent is aware of you wanting to go second, so you must win the roll.

Scarabs certainly does not die horribly to ML's. You will probably kill about 1 base per ML. As for flaming them up close... scarabs up close = lots of dead chimeras.

The ML is decent, when you have quite a few of them, they can pick off some marines here and there etc. Same with the heavy flamer, it is decent in some situations. However, the chimera can not compete with the same pts in more firepower-intensive units.

Illumini wrote:I did touch upon chimeras becoming more effective when spammed (like most things), but as I said, there are big negatives to this. You are spending 440-495pts on those 8-9 chimeras. To get that many, you also have to shove normal guys into them (barring extreme pts-limits), a unit that really doesn't benefit from chimeras. Chimera-phalanx is reasonably survivable against S8 spam from the front, but is horribly fragile against close combat and some other stuff (like artillery). 8-9 chimeras are also A LOT of easy kill points, and you are spending close to 500pts on something that has very little killing power.

"simply going second" - yes.... your opponent is aware of you wanting to go second, so you must win the roll.

Scarabs certainly does not die horribly to ML's. You will probably kill about 1 base per ML. As for flaming them up close... scarabs up close = lots of dead chimeras.

The ML is decent, when you have quite a few of them, they can pick off some marines here and there etc. Same with the heavy flamer, it is decent in some situations. However, the chimera can not compete with the same pts in more firepower-intensive units.

It sounds like you just needs practice learning to use Chimeras more effectively. Scarabs should never = "lots of dead Chimeras" Pie plates+MLs should anihilate scarabs. If the remainder get close then you should be sacrificing 1, maybe 2 Chimeras to scarabs by moving over 6" and blocking for the others, forcing scarabs to hit it on 6s, then shooting them dead after they kill the Chimera...if they kill it (6s to hit is huge).

If my necron opponent chooses to let me go first, well, his mistake is my gain Scouting Vends will guarantee that I see the targets I want with searchlights, allowing me to wipe a huge chunk of his list turn one, even with nightfighting. If he lets me go second, I start in reserve and use the astropath. Honestly, Newcrons are easy to kill with IG, and Chimeras are a huge benefit against them.

I don't know why you are having a problem, or think that Chimeras are obsolete, unless you are just using them wrong. I only run 5 on average; but with 3 Vends and 3 Russes (for firepower, target saturation, and screening), they live a long time and do their job well.

Chimeras do not add target saturation for russes and vendettas. Vendettas can't get cover from the chimera, and will always be a higher priority for S8+ weapons than the front of a chimera. Vendettas are great, some russes are great, but that has nothing to do with the chimera. The vendetta does help chimera survivability, but as the value of a chimera is questionable anyways, why should that really matter?

Russes on the other hand are virtually immune to long range firepower, and are generally not in the same target class as chimeras.

Necron player can easily reserve himself, and just let the lightning play around with your tons of hulls for a few rounds if you have an army that he really doesn't want to be alphastruck by. And what you are describing has nothing to do with chimeras. You are talking about awesome IG heavy and fast choices, which I totally agree are amazing. If you however had left your chimeras at home and brought more firepower/mobility/resiliency for their cost, the situation would have been even better. Less chance of chimeras exploding left and right, taking their passengers with them, more guns to fire at whatever you searchlighted etc.

If you think that fast close combat units are not an issue to mech IG, then you havn't played against good assault players/lists. I played dual-raider BA for almost a year, very competitively, including ETC. A list like that simply smash mech-list (except skimmer lists), especially IG mech lists, because there, the passengers die in drowes when they fall out, they are prone to morale failure and they can't do anything in close combat. Thundercav is even worse than assault termies, being tougher and faster.

Alerian wrote:

Illumini wrote:I did touch upon chimeras becoming more effective when spammed (like most things), but as I said, there are big negatives to this. You are spending 440-495pts on those 8-9 chimeras. To get that many, you also have to shove normal guys into them (barring extreme pts-limits), a unit that really doesn't benefit from chimeras. Chimera-phalanx is reasonably survivable against S8 spam from the front, but is horribly fragile against close combat and some other stuff (like artillery). 8-9 chimeras are also A LOT of easy kill points, and you are spending close to 500pts on something that has very little killing power.

"simply going second" - yes.... your opponent is aware of you wanting to go second, so you must win the roll.

Scarabs certainly does not die horribly to ML's. You will probably kill about 1 base per ML. As for flaming them up close... scarabs up close = lots of dead chimeras.

The ML is decent, when you have quite a few of them, they can pick off some marines here and there etc. Same with the heavy flamer, it is decent in some situations. However, the chimera can not compete with the same pts in more firepower-intensive units.

It sounds like you just needs practice learning to use Chimeras more effectively. Scarabs should never = "lots of dead Chimeras" Pie plates+MLs should anihilate scarabs. If the remainder get close then you should be sacrificing 1, maybe 2 Chimeras to scarabs by moving over 6" and blocking for the others, forcing scarabs to hit it on 6s, then shooting them dead after they kill the Chimera...if they kill it (6s to hit is huge).

If my necron opponent chooses to let me go first, well, his mistake is my gain Scouting Vends will guarantee that I see the targets I want with searchlights, allowing me to wipe a huge chunk of his list turn one, even with nightfighting. If he lets me go second, I start in reserve and use the astropath. Honestly, Newcrons are easy to kill with IG, and Chimeras are a huge benefit against them.

I don't know why you are having a problem, or think that Chimeras are obsolete, unless you are just using them wrong. I only run 5 on average; but with 3 Vends and 3 Russes (for firepower, target saturation, and screening), they live a long time and do their job well.

a unit of 20 Scarab bases has 100 attacks (note, getting 20+ scarab bases by T2 is easy in many cron lists) .... if that won't kill any vehicle, no matter how fast it moved, what will? As well, being beasts, having stealth, and with pulses, you can guarantee the assault on many targets with Scarabs. Yes, they are easy to pop, but if they soak up a bunch of fire and wreck 3 or 4 vehicles (which seems to be the norm), then they've done their job drawing fire from Wraiths and Spyders and Doomscythes.

I forgot that swarms have stealth. That makes the ML even worse against scarabs. 0.5 bases for each ML. That is 2-3 bases killed with 5 chimeras... the necron player can make up to nine (depending on list) new ones each turn..

Zid wrote:As well, being beasts, having stealth,

I think you mean 'being swarms' for stealth. Beasts give them fleet.

pretre wrote:

Zid wrote:As well, being beasts, having stealth,

I think you mean 'being swarms' for stealth. Beasts give them fleet.

Well ya knew what I mean't I meant Scarabs are beasts and have stealth (due to being swarms). Fleet and a 12" assault makes them fast, stealth gives them survivability against anything that's not a flamer

Zid wrote:Well ya knew what I mean't I meant Scarabs are beasts and have stealth (due to being swarms). Fleet and a 12" assault makes them fast, stealth gives them survivability against anything that's not a flamer

Yep.
And I believe it was mentioned earlier, but it bears repeating, if you don't kill the whole squad then there will be more next turn.

pretre wrote:

Zid wrote:Well ya knew what I mean't I meant Scarabs are beasts and have stealth (due to being swarms). Fleet and a 12" assault makes them fast, stealth gives them survivability against anything that's not a flamer

Yep.
And I believe it was mentioned earlier, but it bears repeating, if you don't kill the whole squad then there will be more next turn.

Good point! If even one lives, against a farm, the squad will be back to 10+ strong next turn.

I faced my buddys drop-calv and Demo Packs were the doom of my Scarabs... damn str 8, ap 2 blast. But they did kill a couple vendettas before they dropped (and only 8 bases were in BTB!)

Not being as insane as it was when it first came out does not mean it is obsolete.

What made it insane when it came out was that literally no book could deal with 12+ av12 tanks. That lasted for six months until wolves and then literally every book afterward has decent to very good options for dealing with that build.

But just because an army can deal with a chimera wall doesn’t mean that the chimera wall (and its support) can’t deal with that army. Positioning, timing, baiting, misleading, sacrificing are all just as useful as ever and guard has enough cheap units to do that better than most.

But honestly, I’m fine if people starting to think it’s obsolete. If you don’t build with the capability to take it out you will lose. The more people who think AV12 craziness is dead the better.

lol @"only 8 bases". 8 bases is still brown trouser territory.

As said before, 4 Chimeras is just asking to get smacked. You need to really saturate the field with those ole' boys.

I believe my mech list had about 10 Chimeras at 2k, but it's almost a year since I've had them so I can't be sure.

55 points for such a well-armed transport is still a fantastic deal that many armies would do some stuff in a parking lot for.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
But honestly, I’m fine if people starting to think it’s obsolete. If you don’t build with the capability to take it out you will lose. The more people who think AV12 craziness is dead the better.

Well, that is where the problem lies. Everybody and their grandmother builds list with the capability to take out a bunch of light hulls... all the new codexes have tools that do it efficently and you see them in pretty much all lists. The opening post did list a bunch of common units that all contribute to making the chimera obsolete. People won't stop including those units even if the chimera suddenly stopped being fielded (it won't - there are other reasons than pure game efficiency for fielding chimeras), because those same units are effective against a bunch of other stuff you are likely to meet. S8 spam is nice against a lot of stuff, same with quick assault units and artillery.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Positioning, timing, baiting, misleading, sacrificing are all just as useful as ever

And you can do them all without wasting pts on chimeras

I believe my mech list had about 10 Chimeras at 2k, but it's almost a year since I've had them so I can't be sure.

Already commented on this twice.

Illumini wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Positioning, timing, baiting, misleading, sacrificing are all just as useful as ever

And you can do them all without wasting pts on chimeras

But you can't do these things--or can't do them as effectively--without the mobility of transports. Infantry is too slow and limited in the mobility of its firepower. Fire support vehicles can't hold ground the way a transport does.

By the way, I assume we're talking here about chimeras with turret multilaser and hull heavy flamer? The hull HB model is obsolete, I agree.

I really don't know what to make of this. The chimera is certainly not obsolete, but if you're running a hybrid list with 4 chimeras, of course you won't be getting mileage out of your chimeras.

Illumini wrote:Chimeras do not add target saturation for russes and vendettas. Vendettas can't get cover from the chimera, and will always be a higher priority for S8+ weapons than the front of a chimera. Vendettas are great, some russes are great, but that has nothing to do with the chimera. The vendetta does help chimera survivability, but as the value of a chimera is questionable anyways, why should that really matter?

Chimeras don't add target saturation for russes. Chimeras do add target saturation for vendettas, because they're all AV12. The vendettas have a higher priority, you say? Wonderful! That means the enemy isn't shooting at the chimeras you claim are so fragile. That's the whole point of AV12 spam. Chimeras also add target saturation (and cover!) for artillery like the Manticore, which has better synergy with a mech list than the Leman Russ anyways.

Illumini wrote:Russes on the other hand are virtually immune to long range firepower, and are generally not in the same target class as chimeras.

Which is why you don't run them in a mech spam list. You run artillery, which is generally cheaper and just as effective while behind a wall of chimeras.

Illumini wrote:Necron player can easily reserve himself, and just let the lightning play around with your tons of hulls for a few rounds if you have an army that he really doesn't want to be alphastruck by. And what you are describing has nothing to do with chimeras. You are talking about awesome IG heavy and fast choices, which I totally agree are amazing. If you however had left your chimeras at home and brought more firepower/mobility/resiliency for their cost, the situation would have been even better. Less chance of chimeras exploding left and right, taking their passengers with them, more guns to fire at whatever you searchlighted etc.

The Imotekh/Scarab list is the first list I've seen that is legitimately pants-crappingly scary for AV12 spam lists to deal with. The effectiveness of a single list does not make the chimera obsolete.

Illumini wrote:If you think that fast close combat units are not an issue to mech IG, then you havn't played against good assault players/lists. I played dual-raider BA for almost a year, very competitively, including ETC. A list like that simply smash mech-list (except skimmer lists), especially IG mech lists, because there, the passengers die in drowes when they fall out, they are prone to morale failure and they can't do anything in close combat. Thundercav is even worse than assault termies, being tougher and faster.

Yes, assault armies can pose a problem to mech IG. All armies have strengths and weaknesses in certain matchups. This doesn't make the army bad, nor does it make the chimera obsolete. Mech IG can still trash plenty of other types of lists.

Illumini wrote:Well, that is where the problem lies. Everybody and their grandmother builds list with the capability to take out a bunch of light hulls... all the new codexes have tools that do it efficently and you see them in pretty much all lists. The opening post did list a bunch of common units that all contribute to making the chimera obsolete. People won't stop including those units even if the chimera suddenly stopped being fielded (it won't - there are other reasons than pure game efficiency for fielding chimeras), because those same units are effective against a bunch of other stuff you are likely to meet. S8 spam is nice against a lot of stuff, same with quick assault units and artillery.

The key here is language. You say, "the opening post did list a bunch of common units that all contribute to making the chimera obsolete." I say, "the opening post did list a bunch of common units that all provide an effective counter to AV12 spam." The second statement is a reasonable suggestion, the first is hyperbole that overreaches itself. Yes, chimeras aren't as good anymore. They're certainly a far cry from obsolete, and making an over-the-top claim like this hasn't gotten you anywhere.


You consistently claim that Chimeras aren't worth the points. They certainly aren't if you're running a foot or hybrid list, because they don't have the target saturation that makes them work in today's meta of S8 spam. In a mech list, they are worth their weight in gold, because they have synergy with Veterans. Veterans are a more points-efficient way to kill things as an IG player, due to higher BS and greater concentration of special weapons. So why don't you see them in foot lists? Because they need a Chimera for survivability. The Chimera gives them survivability, mobility and some extra firepower. At 55pts a model it's a steal. Sure, it won't work in a list like the one you describe yourself using. But it perfectly complements a playstyle that uses Veterans and CCS for concentrated hitting power.

Flavius Infernus wrote:By the way, I assume we're talking here about chimeras with turret multilaser and hull heavy flamer? The hull HB model is obsolete, I agree.

You have to have been good to now be obsolete.

And I do think the units that are good against AV12 will fall out of popularity as people stop thinking guard is the end all be all. Missile fangs will never disappear but maybe there will be two units, or the weapons choices will get mixed up. Scarab farming will disappear as soon as people realize against 5/6 opponents that aren’t mech guard it doesn’t work all that well.

The stuff will never go away but people building to a wider meta game gives guard an opportunity to saturate AV12 platforms again. Because even though every book now CAN deal with it, that doesn’t matter if they aren’t taking enough of the right tools to deal with it. Do I think that’s happening? No, not yet. I think too many people think leaf blower is still the army to beat without realizing SWs with 60+ grey hunters or GKs which are mostly foot based are far more threatening opponents using very different means to win.

Roboute wrote:but if you're running a hybrid list with 4 chimeras,

No need to get hung up on the four chimeras, I just mentioned it as the minimum I have used recently (1500-1850). I've played full mech-vet lists too, and I've played against plenty of lists with 10ish chimeras

Roboute wrote:Mech IG can still trash plenty of other types of lists.

Of course. Mech IG is not dead, and a good player can probably get big wins out of the lists. The chimera is of course not on ratling levels of usability.
However, the list type has more and more weak match-ups, and IMO, it is carried more by the power of guard heavy and fast slots than the chimera.

Roboute wrote:
You consistently claim that Chimeras aren't worth the points. They certainly aren't if you're running a foot or hybrid list, because they don't have the target saturation that makes them work in today's meta of S8 spam

You can't spam chimeras enough for them to be survivable enough in today's meta without loosing too much in killing power because you spent too much on them.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The stuff will never go away but people building to a wider meta game gives guard an opportunity to saturate AV12 platforms again

A wider meta is certainly a good thing. I think 6th ed will change the meta long before people adapt to a weakened IG and the new powerhouse lists, so future power of the chimera is probably more reliant on 6th ed than people adapting to new top-dogs

Illumini wrote:No need to get hung up on the four chimeras, I just mentioned it as the minimum I have used recently (1500-1850). I've played full mech-vet lists too, and I've played against plenty of lists with 10ish chimeras

Fair enough, although I wonder why you picked this sentence out to respond to instead of commenting on my bit about Leman Russes, Vendettas and target saturation.

Illumini wrote:Of course. Mech IG is not dead, and a good player can probably get big wins out of the lists. The chimera is of course not on ratling levels of usability.
However, the list type has more and more weak match-ups, and IMO, it is carried more by the power of guard heavy and fast slots than the chimera.

See, now this makes a lot more sense than claiming the chimera is "obsolete." I agree that mech IG has more weak match-ups than it did a few years ago. However, part of the strength of IG's fast and heavy slots, which we agree carries the list, is augmented by further AV12 spam with chimeras. Again, I have to mention artillery like the Manticore, which becomes better than the LRBT when there's a wall of Chimeras to hide behind (the LRBT is obviously much more survivable without the chimeras).

Illumini wrote:You can't spam chimeras enough for them to be survivable enough in today's meta without loosing too much in killing power because you spent too much on them.

I disagree. By themselves, Chimeras aren't very killy for their points. But the Veterans and CCS inside most definitely are, and the Chimera compensates for their tissue paper armor by giving them a metal box to hide inside. The fact is, Guardsmen with heavy and special weapons pack a lot of punch but aren't very survivable, so to compensate you need to either swamp the special weapons in meat shields (blobs) or stick them in bunkers (mech). Both extra points spent on stuff that isn't as killy, but both are effective. Once again, I think Chimeras definitely are weaker than before, but not to the point that spam is ineffective.

Illumini wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The stuff will never go away but people building to a wider meta game gives guard an opportunity to saturate AV12 platforms again

A wider meta is certainly a good thing. I think 6th ed will change the meta long before people adapt to a weakened IG and the new powerhouse lists, so future power of the chimera is probably more reliant on 6th ed than people adapting to new top-dogs

Agreed. I'm excited to find out what changes 6e brings.

So, things have gotten a little worse for chimeras, but I think that this is less a change of reality, and more a change of perceptions. After all...

Illumini wrote:
1: Add heavily to my KP count
2: Pretty much always dies
3: Doesn't really kill much itself
4: Cripples the squad inside and hurts surrounding infantry when #2 happens.
5: Has too much AV10 to get me more than a 12" shunt out of my DZ before exposing it and ending up with #2

...all of these things have been true this entire rules edition. Chimeras have ALWAYS had weak side and rear armor, and have always had crappy firepower, and have always given away nearly free KP and blew the boogers out of the guys inside.

I think what we're seeing more of is the crazy mania about chimeras beginning to crack and flake off more over time, much moreso than the chimera actually being made worse.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:The stuff will never go away but people building to a wider meta game gives guard an opportunity to saturate AV12 platforms again. Because even though every book now CAN deal with it, that doesn’t matter if they aren’t taking enough of the right tools to deal with it.

I'd actually like to double up on this as well. People like to think of 40k as if it were a science, or worse, like a religion. There is THE truth of there being a THE competitive list, etc. As such, there are lots of people who scurry about like lemmings squeaking "meta, meta!" after what looks to be the holy grail of 40k ulimateness. Mech guard lists have had a lot of people raving over them for some time. Not entirely undeservedly, of course (mech guard is a pretty darn solid 40k army), but I agree that in time all of the true believers will seek after another prophet.

Once people stop reacting to mech guard, your mech guard armies will have a much better time of it. If you want to keep playing mech guard, then play mech guard. Think of this time as allowing you to gain your most valuable experience about your list, now that the competition is the toughest and most ubiquitous. If you can hash it in a world where everyone is designing their lists to stop you, then what will things look like when they're not?

Ailaros wrote:So, things have gotten a little worse for chimeras, but I think that this is less a change of reality, and more a change of perceptions.

I disagree. The chimera really was a good bunker for a while. The chimera phalanx really was a good tactic that minimized the weakness of the weak side armour. AV12 armour saturation really did overload your enemies AT capability. The fragile aspect of the chimera has increased drastically because of several factors, and as such, it has lost a lot of its value.

Roboute wrote:the Chimera compensates for their tissue paper armor by giving them a metal box to hide inside.

But the chimera has lost so much of its survivability that it is looking more and more like a coffin.

Roboute wrote:However, part of the strength of IG's fast and heavy slots, which we agree carries the list, is augmented by further AV12 spam with chimeras

Chimeras do add some protection to artillery, but IMO, that is not enough to justify their price. Artillery can often be hidden behind terrain instead (depending on the terrain where you play), or you can do stuff like intermingling squadrons, hiding behind a russ etc. There are other ways to give that coversave to artillery (you will have lots of other tanks on the field), and IMO, infantry is a better screen for your heavy hitters than a chimera for all other purposes. (anti-DS/assault protection etc) Armour saturation is not as powerful as it was, pts you pay for armour saturation is pts not spent on real units.

Roboute wrote:I agree that mech IG has more weak match-ups than it did a few years ago

And a lot of these weak match-ups are against very common armies. While mech-guard is totally possible to play, I believe you can make stronger lists by not spending a substantial amount of your pts in unit that are fragile, have low survivability and who add little mobility. Choose what your list needs of firepower, resiliency and mobility and spend the pts on units that are effective in that role instead.

Chimeras do add one important thing for tourney gaming though - they make it easier to keep within time-limits. Heavy foot presence demands training to be able to get games in in 2-2.5 hours.

Illumini wrote:

Roboute wrote:I agree that mech IG has more weak match-ups than it did a few years ago

And a lot of these weak match-ups are against very common armies. While mech-guard is totally possible to play, I believe you can make stronger lists by not spending a substantial amount of your pts in unit that are fragile, have low survivability and who add little mobility. Choose what your list needs of firepower, resiliency and mobility and spend the pts on units that are effective in that role instead.

Chimeras do add one important thing for tourney gaming though - they make it easier to keep within time-limits. Heavy foot presence demands training to be able to get games in in 2-2.5 hours.

I think VERY common is a bit of an over statement. I’ve been playing mech guard almost exclusively for about two years and out of all the armies I would call truly “bad matchups” (and you’re right to say there are more than when the book first came out, because they all come out of books newer than IG) I actually see them surprisingly rarely at tournaments.

Most Wolf builds – For as strong as they are a lot of people have moved on. I don’t know if it’s boredom or what, but I think wolves are far under-represented for how good they are.

Razorback BAs – Much more common in my area, and although I would call it “bad” in the sense that it is tooled up to take out light tanks it is still a very winnable game.

Grey Knights – They are just a bad match up for anyone, not really a whole lot that can be said or done. It’s no worse for guard and chimeras than it is for anyone else.

Necron Scarab Stuff – How common is this really going to be? I think this is the prime example of people thinking guard are still the army to beat. It is a serious headache for mech guard, most other armies should be able to deal with it fairly easily. As soon as people figure out for every guard player they see the meet 4 non guard players this will fall out of favor.

But for those bad match ups there are still plenty of popular good matchups that mech guard just bullies into the ground.

Codex Space Marines of almost any variety
CSM
Dark Eldar of almost any variety
Eldar
Tyranids
Orks

And although any one of those isn’t as popular as the “top” books they together still make up a huge chunk, maybe even a majority of the tournament field.

No the chimera wall isn’t an unassailable fortress of steal death anymore. But it only ever was for six months anyway. Out of all the things I’m afraid to see 3 units of missile fangs is about the worst and we’ve been fighting against that virtually our entire time as an army. Things are “worse”, but over powered down to good is still by no means bad.

So does it really have to be an either/or? A couple-few chimeras can never be effective? Of course not as the only vehicles, but supporting the heavy/fast. Say a PCS/flamer boat supporting a hellhound and demolisher, or a CCS bunker blocking for a bassy while flanked by a LRBT and busting off extend-range orders for the bubblewrap. Of course there are many possibilities, and it seems like a good, low-cost way to get support to some of the killier vehicles, without the list really relying on chimeras per se.

Chimeras in my opinion are an all or nothing (at least next to nothing) proposition, for a lot of reasons that have already been stated:

Lone chimeras are easy to get side shots on. Many chimeras can block and support each other, making the AV12 wall. Much better than the sum of the individual parts.

Lone chimeras are usually tooled up for long range shooting, and so are the units inside. These builds are wholly inferior to ML HF with meltas inside.

If you are going to have a melta boat chimera, sending one forward alone is suicide. Again many support one another and guarantee at least a few make it where you need to go.

Company Command Squads in chimeras without lots of other chimeras make for easy high priority targets. And unless you tool the CCS for nothing but orders it will become combat ineffective when its ride is blown. Again, many support one another and pass a saturation point where a lot of armies can’t handle to number of similar threats pushed upon them.

A lot of it is the same reason people spam anything. Shutting down 3 razorbacks is easy. Shutting down 8 is very hard. One guard blob is not hard to deal with, 4 gets pretty tough for most armies. In a tournament environment where people generally bring “take all comers” lists, if you can stretch a particular capability of your opponent past its breaking point by spamming one multi-purpose unit type you have a pretty big advantage.

murdog wrote:So does it really have to be an either/or? A couple-few chimeras can never be effective? Of course not as the only vehicles, but supporting the heavy/fast. Say a PCS/flamer boat supporting a hellhound and demolisher, or a CCS bunker blocking for a bassy while flanked by a LRBT and busting off extend-range orders for the bubblewrap. Of course there are many possibilities, and it seems like a good, low-cost way to get support to some of the killier vehicles, without the list really relying on chimeras per se.

In friendly games? Not at all. But the conversation seems to be revolving around top-tier competitive lists. These types of lists need target saturation, as explained by artfcllyflvrd above.

See i generally run 4 chimeras, 2 leman russes, usually vanilla and demolisher, a manticore, a hellhound and a vendetta. And at my flgs, no one fires on my chimeras unless they have no choice. And since i screen with the hellhound or the ruess there is no side armor shots. I dont think its the god of warhammer like people say, but i dont think its obsolete either. And i run hybrid, with at least 40 men on foot. And i do well in my local meta. In fact one guy says he rather face leafblower then my lists because mine are more flexible.

Then again i run lists i like, used to run 3 armored sents with ml until my cat decided they where taking up too much of her sleeping area, (my painting table) and batted them off, breaking their fragile legs. Poor sents.

Illumini wrote:But the chimera has lost so much of its survivability that it is looking more and more like a coffin.

Again with the hyperbole. Newer armies have a greater amount of S8, but that doesn't make the Chimera into a coffin. Even a Space Wolf army firing 21 missiles a turn (3 squads of long fange, 6 other missiles from Typhoons, cyclones etc.) will only average about 1.5 destroyed AV12 vehicles a turn, with 5.5 other assorted damage results. That's probably only about half the tanks in an equal-sized Mech IG army, leaving the other half free to do as it wishes. Oh, and if you're targeting the flat-out Vendettas or bunkered Manticores, cut that in half. SW missile spam and the like puts a dent in the Chimera wall, to be sure, but "looking more and more like a coffin?" Such match-ups are tough, but nowhere near one-sided.

Illumini wrote:Chimeras do add some protection to artillery, but IMO, that is not enough to justify their price. Artillery can often be hidden behind terrain instead (depending on the terrain where you play), or you can do stuff like intermingling squadrons, hiding behind a russ etc. There are other ways to give that coversave to artillery (you will have lots of other tanks on the field), and IMO, infantry is a better screen for your heavy hitters than a chimera for all other purposes. (anti-DS/assault protection etc) Armour saturation is not as powerful as it was, pts you pay for armour saturation is pts not spent on real units.

You aren't just paying points for armor saturation and a cover save. The point I've been making that you've been most consistently ignoring is how chimeras complement Veteran Squads, allowing the IG player a higher concentration of more accurate and mobile special weapons than would be possible in a foot list. Your army needs Troops, and it needs HQ. Your killiest Troops are Veterans, and your killiest HQs are CCS's with melta or plasma. Chimeras benefit both of these units greatly, particularly CCS's, which are otherwise 5-man squads wielding giant "shoot me" signs. Unless you were planning on sticking them in your Vendettas? The Vendettas are high enough target priority already., you'd be guaranteeing them and the CCS a quick death. So the points you spend on Chimeras are offset by the increased killiness of the squads inside. You're paying the points to make your (necessary!) Troops and HQs units to be feared, the armor saturation and cover opportunities are icing on the cake.

Without vets in Chimeras, what would your Mech IG list use for Troops? What else is there? Blobs? Sure, but now we're looking at a hybrid list (less competitive) or a foot list (which wants to avoid AV12 anyways). CCS are a powerful source of concentrated melta and plasma. Would you leave them out? For a Mech IG list, as many Chimeras as possible is the only option that makes sense, and it's not a bad one. The Mech IG list may have dropped in overall effectiveness, as has the Chimera, but it's still a strong option that has synergy with the rest of the army list.

Illumini wrote:And a lot of these weak match-ups are against very common armies. While mech-guard is totally possible to play, I believe you can make stronger lists by not spending a substantial amount of your pts in unit that are fragile, have low survivability and who add little mobility. Choose what your list needs of firepower, resiliency and mobility and spend the pts on units that are effective in that role instead.

Chimeras do add one important thing for tourney gaming though - they make it easier to keep within time-limits. Heavy foot presence demands training to be able to get games in in 2-2.5 hours.

Where are you finding these units with greater firepower, resiliency and mobility than mech vets and CCS? If we're talking a competitive mech IG list, your FA and Heavy slots are already filled with Vendettas, Manticores and other artillery sprinkled to taste. You don't need more units with firepower, resiliency and mobility. You need Troops choices with as much firepower, resiliency and mobility as you can give them. Unless you're running multiple blobs, Chimeras are your best bet for resiliency, and no IG troops choices beat Vets point for point in firepower. Chimeras are also more mobile than infantry, especially blobs. They have quite a few advantages over the same points worth of platoon, and certainly fit better in a mech list.

Illumini, can i have your Chimera? since you don't have use for them...


Sorry, couldn't resist!

You do realize what you say about the Chimera applies to ALL Sentinels, and all nonRuss HS choices. What
now? Just run ALL INF/Russ?

I feel you're being too fatalistic about it. It's getting harder sure, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
Why bother staying in the hobby? i only run Mech Vet/ Leafblower lists. going by your analysis, why would
i keep in the game? Because we roll the dice and "Stuff" happens. On paper, things tend to look different
than when they get laid out on the table.

Not saying i don't respect your take. I just don't think all hope is lost.