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Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So what we have is a conflict between fluff and gameplay.
Not at all - GW actually released a huge article back in WD #269 that retcons the Rhino's history to fit with its current use.

Here's a snippet from the article - it's not all by a long shot, but I really can't be arsed to copy-type any more from it right now.

---

[...] The Rhino became the standard transport vehicle of human armies across the galaxy, with different variants falling in and out of favour as the nature of Man's enemies and battlefields changed. The armies of Mankind spread throughout the galaxy, and many hundreds of worlds were brought within this growing galactic empire. As more enemies were encountered, the STC systems provided these early armies with many different variants of the Rhino such as the Predator, Immolator and Whirlwind. All this was come to an end, however, in a period now known as the Age of Strife. What caused such a massive upheaval in the realm of Man can now only be guessed at, but its cataclysmic effects cannot be underestimated. The many wars that erupted around this time engulfed the entire galaxy and not a single planet was spared the horrors of battle. Alliances and coalitions collapsed into internecine conflict, planets and systems waging war on one another for reasons that have since been lost to posterity.

Whole planets were razed in the conflicts, their precious STC libraries destroyed or smashed by their enemies. COuntless designs were lost and many of the STC systems were damaged beyond repaid. By the time the wars subsided and Mankind had been united under the banner of the newly-revealed Emperor, the vast majority of STC systems had been destroyed and their priceless knowledge forgotten. Denied this most valuable resource, those few fragments of knowledge that remained became treasured relics, passed down from generation to generation, their very existence kept secret from the outside world. In time these fragments became legendary canticles of faith, their knowledge assuming the status of divinely inspired wisdom. Hard copies of schematics and designs created by STC systems have lasted longer than the STCs themselves and have become the holy grail of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who eagerly seize on any scrap of information that might lead to the discovery of even the tiniest fragment of an STC output. Over the millennia, scattered pieces of STC lore have been recovered and ancient designs slowly reincorporated into the Imperial inventory. The Immolator tank used by the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas is one such example, the databank containing its construction details discovered within an ancient factory complex on the world of Fornoth during the Icaria Crusade.

As knowledge of their construction faded from memory, attrition took its toll on the number of Rhinos throughout the galaxy. The rituals of maintenance became debased as the centuries passed and knowledge of the exact workings of the Rhinos passed into myth. Among those who retained the priceless knowledge of their construction were the Techmarines of the newly created Legiones Astartes and Tech Priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who established strict guidelines regarding the construction, consecration and maintenance of these valuable vehicles. Whether built in the Martian weapon-forges of the Adeptus Mechanicus or the fortress monasteries of the Space Marines, the builders of these holy vehicles know that the purity and spiritual welfare of the Rhino is as important as the skill of the artificers who construct it.

[...]

Besides the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, only a select few Imperial organisations now have access to Rhinos, the priceless technology involved in their construction and maintenance judged too valuable to be entrusted to any but the most loyal and steadfast bodies of warriors. The Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Arbites have a number of Rhinos, maintaining a body of those sanctified and pure of heart to care for them. Years of training go towards achieving this respected position. Aspirants must learn how to divine the runes of engineering, memorise the liturgy of maintenance and constantly study the routines of service. It is a position of great honour to care for these vehicles and those that are carried into battle within one of the spirits that inhabit the mechanical functions and blessed bolts that make up each one.

Should a Rhino ever be lost in battle it is an occasion of great mourning for those entrusted with its care, and furious battles have been fought to reclaim the burned-out carcass of a Rhino simply to lay its spirit to rest. After the Battle of Naeuysk Gorge, fourteen Rhinos of the Imperial Fists had to be abandoned when traitor Space Marines from the Night Lords Legion ambushed the advancing column as it crossed the only bridge across the gorge. [...] The following morning a daring mission involving an airborne assault across the gorge pushed back the Night Lords from the hills on the opposite side and allowed the Imperial Fists to bring up salvage units to start the recovery of their shattered vehicles and the bodies of their comrades. The battle in the hills raged for over thirty hours, with Imperial Fists' casualties amounting to almost 85% as they fought to give their Techmarines enough time to retrieve the fallen Rhinos. Many of the recovered vehicles were subsequently repaired and sent back into action, their battle spirits eager to avenge the ignominy of their earlier defeat. [...]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/06 02:52:47


 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Oh great Space Emperor....

I appreciate you typing it up but really?

Rhinos are rare and lost technology? What next mourning for every combat knife and krak grenade?

I think I remember that fluff, isn't that the issue where they tried to convince us to throw away our old rhinos and buy new ones?

In proper medieval fashion I hold that older fluff always trumps newer!

 
   
Made in ie
Hallowed Canoness




Ireland

Well, it is an explanation.

Though I was somewhat surprised as well concerning the "fighting battles over burnt-out hulls" bit. A little over the top, probably. But still a nicely written article, imo. Also because it featured a short SoB + Rhino story to go along with it. :3

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/06 03:33:17


 
   
Made in us
Manhunter






Little Rock AR

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:IG used to use Rhinos back in RT/2nd edition, but got Chimeras before 3rd. They're supposed to be pretty much ubiquitous in the Imperium though. In Dawn of War: Soulstorm, they use them to transport Baneblade parts, but the fluff in that game is awful anyway, and I'm pretty positive it's just because they didn't want to make another vehicle model.

IG used to use Land Speeders and Land Raiders as well, but that all stopped before 3rd edition. I don't know the exact cutoff date for either. That had more to do with model constraints though.


As others said it was mid 2nd edition. The Rhino was GW's second or third vehicle kit (after the Land Raider and maybe the Ork battlewagon) and was used by IG, Marines, Squats, Orks and who knows who else.

Why you can see tons of IG rhinos in the very first IG army list.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/208010.page

The Chimera first showed up in Epic (late 80s, early 90s) but didn't make it to 40k until the mid-90s.

So what we have is a conflict between fluff and gameplay.

Fluff says the Rhino is reliable, easy to maintain and ubiquitous throughout the Imperium.

Yet in gameplay the most numerous army has not access to it.

To mate the two I like to think that the IG does use Rhinos just not in the front lines. I envision tons of rhino variants for everything from fuel transport, to bridge laying to communications to ambulences but they're all just off camera. The Chimera's heavier front armor, fire ports and firepower make it a better tank for the IG's front line units.

As always your mileage may vary.


Sorry mate, they use Chimera verients to do that. Like the trojen. Rhinos are now only entrusted to the mahreens, the sisters, and the arbites.

Proud to be Obliviously Blue since 2011!

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Brother SRM wrote:IG used to use Land Speeders and Land Raiders as well, but that all stopped before 3rd edition. I don't know the exact cutoff date for either. That had more to do with model constraints though.
Land Speeders, Land Raiders and Rhinos were all deleted by Codex: Imperial Guard, 2nd Ed. So the cutoff is essentially 1995.

Thanks for a date on that! I just remember them being in the 2nd ed rulebook and in an old 'Eavy Metal painting guide.

Check out my Youtube channel!
 
   
Made in ca
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:In previous editions, aye, hell my compedium has Imperial Guard colour schemes for Land Raiders in it.

These days however, I believe they are Astartes only, any Guard trying to use them would be hunted down by the Marine chapter they stole them from.
The Chimera wasn't invented by GW until the 2nd Edition Imperial Guard Codex. So in Rogue Trader, and even the Black Book Codex from 2E, Imperial Guard, and even Squats, used Rhinos and Land Raiders because they were the only existing Imperial tanks. You can assume that once the 2nd Edition Codex came out, it was Retcon 40K at work.


Bingo, once GW got 'better' with plastics they released the chimera in Codex IG. It was then retconed that Marines have always had rhino's and Lr's while the guard had Leman Russes and Chimera's. It never happened when both the guard, SM and squats used them IT NEVER HAPPENED -signed the managment at GW-

riplikash wrote:The Land Raider is not shared with the IG because one of the Emperors last commands was to transfer all LRs to the Space Marines during the heresy, and he has never reversed that command, for obvious reasons. And since the Imperium is nothing if not dogmatic... then wanted to sell more plastic tank kits in the 90;s



Fixed that for ya
   
 
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