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I kinda see having the schematics for rhinos, land raiders, predators, etc laying and not being used by the millions of imperial regiments as sorta a waste. I was wondering if any imperial guard use the rhino chassis because i'd think it would help them and it be kinda silly if they didn't.

Not unless you count Arbites and the PDF of the more richer planets.

so im guessing rhinos are way more expensive than chimeras? why would they be?

I would take a Chimera over a Rhino every time (strictly from a firepower point of view). Rhinos are more versatile from a deployment standpoint (3 doors to 1) and arent they slightly better armored? Chimera also allows more embarked troops to shoot......

That didnt really answer your question but i do not see why they wouldnt.....its a fluff thing that the SMs get them almost exclusively

shadowsnip wrote:so im guessing rhinos are way more expensive than chimeras? why would they be?

Slightly more complex to build as they have a basic AI, 4 engines and probably use more expensive materials.

Dogface 76 wrote:I would take a Chimera over a Rhino every time (strictly from a firepower point of view). Rhinos are more versatile from a deployment standpoint (3 doors to 1) and arent they slightly better armored? Chimera also allows more embarked troops to shoot......

That didnt really answer your question but i do not see why they wouldnt.....its a fluff thing that the SMs get them almost exclusively

:: clears throat at the bolded text ::


Anyways, that business aside, there's probably something about the Chimera that makes it more suitable for the IG than the Rhino would be, I agree with you there. I'll check Lexicanum.

Okies, according to Lexicanum...

The primary role of the Chimera is to accompany tanks into battle and provide cover and support to infantry formations. When there are few tanks available, the Chimera often becomes a hard point which infantry can gather around and use as cover before charging into enemy formations while the Chimera uses its heavy weapon to great effect. Generally, the Chimera will move forwards, deploy troops and retreat to a safer position before once again moving forwards to pick up a squad should they need moving or evacuating.

Chimeras, like all transports; save infantry the hard task of slogging across the battlefield. They generally carry med-kits and vox equipment, allowing the infantry to patch up and receive new orders rapidly. Troops can also resupply from the Chimera's ammo stocks, making them a far more efficient force than standard foot-slogging infantry.

While most vehicles can travel through certain depths of water without difficulty, the Chimera is special in that it is totally amphibious, with the ability to transport up to twelve models or six Ogryns across land or sea. There is one access point for passengers, a ramp at the rear of the vehicle.

The Chimera has been redesigned into the common Basilisk and Hellhound as well as having it own turret changed several times to fight specific enemies. They have also be retrofitted as ambulances in some cases, though its most common appliance is as troop carrier, armed with a turret-mounted Multi-laser and hull-mounted Heavy bolter.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chimera

So yeah, its firepower apparently seems to be a significant part of it. I'd imagine that the vehicle being fully amphibious would be of greater value to the Imperial Guard than it would be to the forces in power armor, so that could be a bit of it. The ability for the techpriests to modify it into a Basilisk or Hellhound or other such vehicles is probably also more useful, as the IG don't seem to use Predators, Vindicators, or Whirlwinds.

Edit:

n0t_u wrote:Slightly more complex to build as they have a basic AI, 4 engines and probably use more expensive materials.

Or that.

That makes sense. The three doors and the build of the rhino can be more tactically used for SM than the Chimera which is outfitted for Imperial Guard to lay down heavy fire and replenish the troops. and like not_u said they're cheaper

No, well yes also, some Imperial Guard regiments might use them, but not enough to justify in game.

Honestly I would rather use the Chimera, its easier to manufactor, has more firepower, better front armor, and can be used as anything from a command post to an ambulance. For the guard, its clearly a superior transport. I would also say it would be better for space marines, but we already had this convetsation, and i got shot down, because appearently mahreens really need a side door.

I would say that - in addition to the difference in complexity regarding manufacture and repairs (the latter being especially important to the IG*) - it could be a matter of combat role.

The Chimaera is designed to bring infantry to the front lines and support their advance with its own armaments. The Rhino is designed to carry its passengers to the front lines as fast as possible, and for easy airlift. Apart from what looks like a somewhat smaller size and weight, the Rhino could also be better-suited to survive quick atmospheric entry than a Chimaera. To be more precise, Rhinos get field-dropped off the underside of a hovering aircraft whereas Chimaeras simply drive out of some Navy lander's garage. It stands to reason that the former method is better suited for a rapid reaction strike force focusing on speed over brute power. It also embodies the reliance of Imperial Guard on vehicles over infantry, whereas Marines, Sisters and Arbites value infantry over vehicles.

(*: I know that the Rhino is an extremely reliable vehicle, perhaps even more reliable than the Chimaera - but when something does break for real it could still be harder to repair, so that the IG might still end up opting for a vehicle that breaks more easily but can be jury-rigged by its own crew without need for a specialist. Or, conversely, the Rhino is actually easier to repair but has a bigger consumption for valuable spare parts and thus is not as independent in longer campaigns the sort of which the Imperial Guard is famous for waging. Both ways could provide another explanation.)

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:apparently mahreens really need a side door.

Not to mention that they need a vehicle specifically designed to carry 10 power armoured 8 foot tall killing machines inside.

You'd probably be able to fit 2 into a chimera. Laying down.

Sure, except a rhino has about the same dimensions as a chimera... So there goes your 2 marines laying down theory. Lol correction the chimera is BIGGER then a rhino. Sure the inside will be configured differently, but if a rhino can hold 10 mahreens so can a chimera

The_Happy_Pig wrote:power armoured 8 foot tall killing machines inside.

7 feet.

I know, small detail. It still amuses me that 99% of all posts mentioning Marine height take some inflated BL number rather than the one their designer himself has provided.

I'll have to need to check up on vehicle dimensions, though. I would have presumed the Chimaera would be a bit longer now. :(
Possibly taller as well due to the turret.

I looked it up. Chimera L: 6.9m W: 5.7m H: 3.72m
Rhino: L:6.6m W: 4.5m H: 3.6m

In previous editions, aye, hell my compedium has Imperial Guard colour schemes for Land Raiders in it.

These days however, I believe they are Astartes only, any Guard trying to use them would be hunted down by the Marine chapter they stole them from.

It isn't shown in game terms, but I believe that the Rhino is faster than the Chimera. It's aim is to get it's contents into combat asap. The Chimera is like a mobile bunker, it rolls in alongside tanks, while laying down lots of firepower. Once its troops are deployed it provides supporting fire. It also contains medical gear and spare ammo/grenades/other kit for the Guardsmen.

Basically Rhino is to get the troops to combat as quickly as possible whereas the Chimera is a mobile support tank, providing the IG with all they might need.

Nope. Both are the same speed. The same ponderous slow speed. 55kph off road, 70kph road.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Nope. Both are the same speed. The same ponderous slow speed. 55kph off road, 70kph road.

Really? Got a source for that?

Probably because of the difference in way of thinking. Space Marines have power armor standard. So, they all have a inflated sense of their own invulnerability. They think nothing of charging into the thick of combat, bolters firing, and they are no slouch are melee either. IG on the other hand, are made up of normal men and lots of vehicles, and they don't have the kind of armor or physique that space marines have. So, they tend to stay within cover, or within vehicles.

Hence, the Chimera, with its multiple firing ports, and just one exit hatch, is better for IG. SM, on the other hand, prefer the Rhino because it has 3 exit hatches, so they can exit in any of 3 different directions, makes for faster and more flexible deployment. When SM wants a mobile bunker, which is what the Chimera is to IG, then that's where the Land Raider comes in!

Also, the same armored chasis is used for predator tanks, and Razorbacks. So, its far easier to the SM to stick to the same common basic chasis design than adopt a new one.

Castiel wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Nope. Both are the same speed. The same ponderous slow speed. 55kph off road, 70kph road.

Really? Got a source for that?

The Rhino one seems to be from an older GW Chapter Approved article ... I'm trying to dig up the White Dwarf that had something on them, too. No idea where the Chimaera stats come from; it could simply be one of those Imperial Armour ideas. Or did GW ever write specs for them, too?

Either way, maybe you could still argue that the Rhino could turn faster (four engine blocks providing faster acceleration), thus being more maneuverable in the battlefield...

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:In previous editions, aye, hell my compedium has Imperial Guard colour schemes for Land Raiders in it.

These days however, I believe they are Astartes only, any Guard trying to use them would be hunted down by the Marine chapter they stole them from.

The Chimera wasn't invented by GW until the 2nd Edition Imperial Guard Codex. So in Rogue Trader, and even the Black Book Codex from 2E, Imperial Guard, and even Squats, used Rhinos and Land Raiders because they were the only existing Imperial tanks. You can assume that once the 2nd Edition Codex came out, it was Retcon 40K at work.

Castiel wrote:It isn't shown in game terms, but I believe that the Rhino is faster than the Chimera. It's aim is to get it's contents into combat asap. The Chimera is like a mobile bunker, it rolls in alongside tanks, while laying down lots of firepower. Once its troops are deployed it provides supporting fire. It also contains medical gear and spare ammo/grenades/other kit for the Guardsmen.

Basically Rhino is to get the troops to combat as quickly as possible whereas the Chimera is a mobile support tank, providing the IG with all they might need.

Back in 2nd ed, the chimera had a top speed of 20', while the rhino had 30", so I'd say there's some validity to that idea.

Fluffwise, their are only around 1000 chapters of marines. Each chapter has around 100 rhinos.

That's about 100000 rhinos, not including Arbites, Custodes ect.

Given the amount of Guardsmen that need to be shuffled around...

Clearly Rhinos are extremely "rare", whereas Armaggedon is a world that mass produces Chimea hulls on an hourly basis.

Provided they aren't busy fighting off Waaagh! Gazzy.

As has been mentioned, the Chimera has several areas in which it is superior to the rhino: more fire power, cheaper, I believe better front armor, etc. It's a moving bunker, and unsurprisingly is used be the army that needs a moving bunker.

The Rhino also has some advantages over the Chimera: It is a crazy lego vehicle can be maintained by a drunk hobo and repaired in the midst of combat, it provides more flexibility in embankment, handles steep terrain better, runs on anything combustable (even more so than the chimera), it docs with aircraft well, can handle moving deployments from said aircraft, has more even armor (the chimera is front heavy), and being a crazy lego vehicle parts can be popped on and off to accomadate different battle roles. Unsurprisingly it is used be the army that operates behind enemy lines, transports heavily armored infantry, and requires rapid deployment.

So they each fit their roles well.

The Land Raider is not shared with the IG because one of the Emperors last commands was to transfer all LRs to the Space Marines during the heresy, and he has never reversed that command, for obvious reasons. And since the Imperium is nothing if not dogmatic...

How else would they hang out the sides and shout abuse at xenos? Windows are too small for them, they need doors!

Although in all seriousness a Chimera may not be able to carry a full squad of Marines. I mean, they weigh what, forty tons each? >.>

EDIT: Also, rules-wise, Space Marines being able to use IG vehicles would just be totally hax.

IG used to use Rhinos back in RT/2nd edition, but got Chimeras before 3rd. They're supposed to be pretty much ubiquitous in the Imperium though. In Dawn of War: Soulstorm, they use them to transport Baneblade parts, but the fluff in that game is awful anyway, and I'm pretty positive it's just because they didn't want to make another vehicle model.

IG used to use Land Speeders and Land Raiders as well, but that all stopped before 3rd edition. I don't know the exact cutoff date for either. That had more to do with model constraints though.

Frozen Ocean wrote:How else would they hang out the sides and shout abuse at xenos? Windows are too small for them, they need doors!

Hah. Drive-by defamation - a devastating psychological warfare tactic perfected by the Angry Marines Chapter.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Although in all seriousness a Chimera may not be able to carry a full squad of Marines. I mean, they weigh what, forty tons each?

Mmm, if you go by the old AoD Codex (which had the most detailed armour tech fluff to date), Marine power armour incorporates a "gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being".

SCIENCE!

Castiel wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Nope. Both are the same speed. The same ponderous slow speed. 55kph off road, 70kph road.

Really? Got a source for that?

Imperial Armor vol 1 for the chimera, Imperial Armor vol 2 for the Rhino


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And people need to stop saying mahreens cant fit in chimeras. The fething rhino is smaller then a chimera, but not by much, if 2 mahreens cant fit in a chimera, then they canf fit in a smaller box.

Lynata wrote:Marine power armour incorporates a "gravitic energy dampener which effectively reduces the weight and inertia of the suit to the same level as that of a normal human being".

SCIENCE!

Enabling them to do Super Mario leaps, or is that just the Ultramarines? >.>

Brother SRM wrote:IG used to use Rhinos back in RT/2nd edition, but got Chimeras before 3rd. They're supposed to be pretty much ubiquitous in the Imperium though. In Dawn of War: Soulstorm, they use them to transport Baneblade parts, but the fluff in that game is awful anyway, and I'm pretty positive it's just because they didn't want to make another vehicle model.

IG used to use Land Speeders and Land Raiders as well, but that all stopped before 3rd edition. I don't know the exact cutoff date for either. That had more to do with model constraints though.

As others said it was mid 2nd edition. The Rhino was GW's second or third vehicle kit (after the Land Raider and maybe the Ork battlewagon) and was used by IG, Marines, Squats, Orks and who knows who else.

Why you can see tons of IG rhinos in the very first IG army list.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/208010.page

The Chimera first showed up in Epic (late 80s, early 90s) but didn't make it to 40k until the mid-90s.

So what we have is a conflict between fluff and gameplay.

Fluff says the Rhino is reliable, easy to maintain and ubiquitous throughout the Imperium.

Yet in gameplay the most numerous army has not access to it.

To mate the two I like to think that the IG does use Rhinos just not in the front lines. I envision tons of rhino variants for everything from fuel transport, to bridge laying to communications to ambulences but they're all just off camera. The Chimera's heavier front armor, fire ports and firepower make it a better tank for the IG's front line units.

As always your mileage may vary.

Brother SRM wrote:IG used to use Land Speeders and Land Raiders as well, but that all stopped before 3rd edition. I don't know the exact cutoff date for either. That had more to do with model constraints though.

Land Speeders, Land Raiders and Rhinos were all deleted by Codex: Imperial Guard, 2nd Ed. So the cutoff is essentially 1995.