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Long as both players are using the same dice i dont see the problem

I use casino dice. I let my opponents use casino dice. I tell as many people as I can about the variance caused by chessex dice. I want more people to get casino dice.

Also, I really like them. They don't roll off the table. They have a nice solid couple of bounces and they land on a facing cleanly. They don't do that rolling skittering nonsense that the chessex ones do. They are easier to use and roll, they roll more randomly and they look sweet. They make you feel like a high roller.

So yeah, I am very pro-casino dice and my opponents tend to enjoy rolling them as well.

Rented Tritium wrote:I use casino dice. I let my opponents use casino dice. I tell as many people as I can about the variance caused by chessex dice. I want more people to get casino dice.

Also, I really like them. They don't roll off the table. They have a nice solid couple of bounces and they land on a facing cleanly. They don't do that rolling skittering nonsense that the chessex ones do. They are easier to use and roll, they roll more randomly and they look sweet. They make you feel like a high roller.

So yeah, I am very pro-casino dice and my opponents tend to enjoy rolling them as well.

They are also not randomized after your nice solid couple of bounces as casino dice require a bank or dice cup and a flat, non- wargaming surface.

They are also directly influenced by the roller with rolling techniques. Sharing the dice does nothing for sharing techniques to influence dice.

Also casino dice damage models and terrain.

Add to the fact you are preaching lies by spreading the word while promoting casino dice, you are part of the problem as your rolls are not random and are more influenced by techniques and not rolling the dice as they were designed to be. That is way worse than some minor issues with flawed cheap dice.

Casino dice have no place in wargaming.

For 40K I use a couple of blocks of cheapo GW dice which I rattle in a cup and slam down on the table.

Most opponents also use the GW dice so as long as we both go away with about as many dice as we brought to the table, everyone is happy.

Between mixing the dice, throwing with a cup and not trying to make any selection, I think any production defect bias to the rolls is lost.

Surfboard66 wrote:This is a pretty simple question. Apparently dice with square edges and painted dots roll 1's a certain percentage less frequently than a standard chessex/gw block, would using the "better" dice be considered cheating/illegal in anyway?

They really shouldn't be "better" rather, more accurate if you're talking about casino style dice, though be aware that you need to actually get them to bounce and not just drop them on the table (and they can damage stuff). If the typical dice people are using are rolling one result more often than they should, then really those are the dice that should not be used technically, there's a good case for that but it's probably not as clear cut as that old article makes it out to be.

I've noticed the standard where I play to be this:

-Use one type of dice for all rolling, regardless of type.
-Casino dice are frowned upon, but not illegal (as long as there is strict adherence to above guideline)
-Actual 'rolling' of dice is preferred to 'dropping' of dice.

YMMV, but this seems to work for us.

Nope.
You are pretty much taking machined dice over moulded dice. See:

http://youtu.be/bR2fxoNHIuU

and

http://youtu.be/PxmkWrDbn34

Rented Tritium wrote:I use casino dice. I let my opponents use casino dice. I tell as many people as I can about the variance caused by chessex dice. I want more people to get casino dice.

Also, I really like them. They don't roll off the table. They have a nice solid couple of bounces and they land on a facing cleanly. They don't do that rolling skittering nonsense that the chessex ones do. They are easier to use and roll, they roll more randomly and they look sweet. They make you feel like a high roller.

So yeah, I am very pro-casino dice and my opponents tend to enjoy rolling them as well.

I bought a pair of Casino dice in Vegas. I absolutely love them. Though I believe I was overcharged for mine since it was one of those tourist gift shops where you pay 30 bucks for a 10 dollar snow globe on ebay.

Where did you get your casino dice?

As of late I have been fascinated by Q-workshop dice. http://q-workshop.com/main.php?lang=EN&sell_type=DETAL


However, I am not sure if the dice suck, I suck or the dice gods hate me. I roll a lot of 1s with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

This guy knows his dice.

EDIT: I swear, if it weren't for that little Canadian flag Van Hammer, I would ask if I knew you on facebook where a friend of mine posted these.

Surtur wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxmkWrDbn34

This guy knows his dice.

EDIT: I swear, if it weren't for that little Canadian flag Van Hammer, I would ask if I knew you on facebook where a friend of mine posted these.

Thank you for posting this.

If your dice are "better" in any way other than how they look... its cheating. Because being "better" at rolling a particular outcome is a reduction in randomness and thus unfair.

Manufacturers of casino dice have to test every die in a special machine that holds the dice at two opposing corners and spins the die, measuring the wobble caused by any imbalance in the die. When it comes to dice what I find concerning more than chessex dice, are some the more ornate dice that have sculptural designs. Those I think inject a greater likelyhood of inbalance in dice.

I think more than that, the biggest issue I most often have are people who don't actually roll the dice. You can argue what is a roll, but I tend to go with casino rules. That a roll entail one pick up the dice, the dice shake loosely in hand, when thrown dice should roll and tumble at least two full times. I see a lot of dice drops and dice that just fall flat... the dice someone's using don't really matter as much when they're making limp risted play.

I watched the Game Science video. Nothing I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless.

I think the big difference we as (mostly) GW gamers should notice is that we use handfuls of dice, as compared to one or two of each kind. This mitigates a lot of the effect of unbalanced dice: your dice may favour certain sides, but the distribution of which sides they favour will be random and thus your rolls in general will still approximate randomness. A D20 gamer rolling a single biased dice is much more likely to notice statistically skewed results.

I did like how he properly mentioned that dice will favour an axis, rather than a side. The claims that 'my dice roll all 1's' are bogus / confirmation bias. Because of the weight distribution, they should roll as many more 6's as they do 1's.

So if you want to buy square dice, go ahead. Theres nothing wrong with it. But after a few months of dealing with large, sharp dice which roll awkardly and have their corners worn off rolling across textured tabletops, you'll see that they roll just as many X's as do your chessex dice, for twice the price.

nkelsch wrote:They are also not randomized after your nice solid couple of bounces as casino dice require a bank or dice cup and a flat, non- wargaming surface.

Nope, you're wrong here. 2-3 bounces is fine. Casino dice are great because the sharp corners pop them up into the air and make them do crazy things with each bounce. Casinos require you to either hit the opposite wall or get across the line, which would be nice to have in the wargaming setting, but the real world intervenes and 2-3 bounces is just fine.

They are also directly influenced by the roller with rolling techniques. Sharing the dice does nothing for sharing techniques to influence dice.

So are chessex dice, dude. You think being able to control the dice is something unique to casino dice?

Also casino dice damage models and terrain.

So can chessex dice. It's called "don't roll into models" and it's pretty simple. Also, chessex dice have a habit of flying off in every direction because the rounded corners make them roll like a ball. That's way more likely to hit something in the first place in my book.

Add to the fact you are preaching lies by spreading the word while promoting casino dice,

Lies, you say? :rolleyes:

you are part of the problem as your rolls are not random

Chessex dice roll 1s 29% of the time. I am not sure how you think casino dice are going to be less random than that.

and are more influenced by techniques

You have not demonstrated this. The "more" part is what you are missing. Casino dice can be manipulated by the thrower, so can chessex dice. Literally any dice can be manipulated by the thrower. You have yet to establish ANYTHING special about casino dice making this easier to do.

and not rolling the dice as they were designed to be.

I'm sure my codex was DESIGNED for 1 to be rolled 29% of the time. :rolleyes:

That is way worse than some minor issues with flawed cheap dice.

"minor issues"? No dude, they're not "minor issues" and your problems that are "way worse" are 100% contrived.

Casino dice have no place in wargaming.

But rolling 1s 29% of the time has a place in wargaming apparently?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:I watched the Game Science video. Nothing I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless.

I think the big difference we as (mostly) GW gamers should notice is that we use handfuls of dice, as compared to one or two of each kind. This mitigates a lot of the effect of unbalanced dice: your dice may favour certain sides, but the distribution of which sides they favour will be random and thus your rolls in general will still approximate randomness. A D20 gamer rolling a single biased dice is much more likely to notice statistically skewed results.

I did like how he properly mentioned that dice will favour an axis, rather than a side. The claims that 'my dice roll all 1's' are bogus / confirmation bias. Because of the weight distribution, they should roll as many more 6's as they do 1's.

So if you want to buy square dice, go ahead. Theres nothing wrong with it. But after a few months of dealing with large, sharp dice which roll awkardly and have their corners worn off rolling across textured tabletops, you'll see that they roll just as many X's as do your chessex dice, for twice the price.

I'm not sure that rolling in a group actually fixes the issue of rounded corners. When dice are rolling instead of bouncing, they are less random inherently. When you roll a million chessex dice, they roll rather than bounce. The issue is still there. Bumping into other dice does not fix the issue, the weight distribution will still favor 1s in large sample sizes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Piston Honda wrote:
Where did you get your casino dice?

There are a lot of them on amazon marketplace in sets of 5 for around 12$.

Rented Tritium wrote:

nkelsch wrote:They are also not randomized after your nice solid couple of bounces as casino dice require a bank or dice cup and a flat, non- wargaming surface.

Nope, you're wrong here. 2-3 bounces is fine. Casino dice are great because the sharp corners pop them up into the air and make them do crazy things with each bounce. Casinos require you to either hit the opposite wall or get across the line, which would be nice to have in the wargaming setting, but the real world intervenes and 2-3 bounces is just fine.

Not fine. Not randomized. And your sharp corners will be chipped within a single game and become unbalanced defeating the purpose.

They are also directly influenced by the roller with rolling techniques. Sharing the dice does nothing for sharing techniques to influence dice.

So are chessex dice, dude. You think being able to control the dice is something unique to casino dice?

Yes actually. Rolling techniques only work with square-edged dice. The nature of rounded dice make rolling techniques not actually work. It is a design which basically builds 'dice cups' into the design of the dice. Basically you can roll rounded dice with your hand but all square-edged dice must be rolled with a dice cup or they are influenced by the roller.

Also casino dice damage models and terrain.

So can chessex dice. It's called "don't roll into models" and it's pretty simple. Also, chessex dice have a habit of flying off in every direction because the rounded corners make them roll like a ball. That's way more likely to hit something in the first place in my book.

Your casino dice are heavier, and sharper. THey damage models and terrain.

Add to the fact you are preaching lies by spreading the word while promoting casino dice,

Lies, you say? :rolleyes:

Yes. Lies like saying chessex roll 29% 1s.

you are part of the problem as your rolls are not random

Chessex dice roll 1s 29% of the time. I am not sure how you think casino dice are going to be less random than that.

Here is your lying. For them to roll 29% 1s they would be visually disformed. This 29% 1s lie has been debunked multiple times and it is not the drilled pips that influence unbalanced dice, it is the casting process and internal flaws of the dice. Unbalanced dice are not pre-disposed to 1s they are predisposed to a RANDOM side based upon where the flaws inside the dice occur. That is the truth about unbalanced dice. They individually may each roll biased torwards a specific side, not always 1s. Promoting it as truth makes you a liar. Changing to dice which are used to cheat with makes you a cheater.

and are more influenced by techniques

You have not demonstrated this. The "more" part is what you are missing. Casino dice can be manipulated by the thrower, so can chessex dice. Literally any dice can be manipulated by the thrower. You have yet to establish ANYTHING special about casino dice making this easier to do.

No, Chessex dice cannot. Not any dice can be influenced by the roller. But casino dice very much can. Especially when people use casino dice *ONLY* for LD or AV rolls. Rolling dice in groups of 1 and 2 can be very much influenced. I noticed if you actually believed all dice are influenced, do you use a dice cup for every roll? No? Then your calls for the integrity of dice rolling is a lie and you are using casino dice for nefarious purposes.

and not rolling the dice as they were designed to be.

I'm sure my codex was DESIGNED for 1 to be rolled 29% of the time. :rolleyes:

Since no dice anywhere roll that, it isn't an issue.

That is way worse than some minor issues with flawed cheap dice.

"minor issues"? No dude, they're not "minor issues" and your problems that are "way worse" are 100% contrived.

I call people who can roll 4+ with 95% accuracy on square-edged dice and control critical rolls way worse than the true impact of biased dice which is basically nothing since 29% 1s is a lie.

Casino dice have no place in wargaming.

But rolling 1s 29% of the time has a place in wargaming apparently?

This is a lie, no matter how many times you say it, it is still a lie.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:I watched the Game Science video. Nothing I didn't already know, but interesting nonetheless.

I think the big difference we as (mostly) GW gamers should notice is that we use handfuls of dice, as compared to one or two of each kind. This mitigates a lot of the effect of unbalanced dice: your dice may favour certain sides, but the distribution of which sides they favour will be random and thus your rolls in general will still approximate randomness. A D20 gamer rolling a single biased dice is much more likely to notice statistically skewed results.

I did like how he properly mentioned that dice will favour an axis, rather than a side. The claims that 'my dice roll all 1's' are bogus / confirmation bias. Because of the weight distribution, they should roll as many more 6's as they do 1's.

So if you want to buy square dice, go ahead. Theres nothing wrong with it. But after a few months of dealing with large, sharp dice which roll awkardly and have their corners worn off rolling across textured tabletops, you'll see that they roll just as many X's as do your chessex dice, for twice the price.

I'm not sure that rolling in a group actually fixes the issue of rounded corners. When dice are rolling instead of bouncing, they are less random inherently. When you roll a million chessex dice, they roll rather than bounce. The issue is still there. Bumping into other dice does not fix the issue, the weight distribution will still favor 1s in large sample sizes.

Wrong, this is a lie. Some flawed dice may favor a specific side, but it is by no means always 1. If someone researched to find out which side all their dice favored then there would be an issue. But otherwise the random bias of a few dice mixxed in with all the other dice makes it not have any impact.

Yes actually. Rolling techniques only work with square-edged dice.

Citation needed

Promoting it as truth makes you a liar

No it doesn't, words mean things.

Seriously did casino dice kill your family or something? You are getting irrationally angry about this.

Just a reminder to keep it polite in here. Dice are nothing to get upset about.

Changing to dice which are used to cheat with makes you a cheater.

Man, this is getting really close to offending me. You need to back off.

Hello,
Having spent alot of time with many dice in different games and many players we came up with a simple rule when it came to tourney play, you have to use "house" dice, and they stay with the table they are on. The reason for this was we had a few individuals using the specific dice types for certain things rather consitantly, and performing well above average. This got some of us curious and so we asked if we could use thier dice (pretending we did not have ours or what not), they normally gave us only certain ones saying something to the effect that they did not want thier "luck" rolled out of them. Well when some of thier dice rolled off the edge of the table I picked them up and found they were inordinatly heavy (Bicycle brand "casino" dice rounded corners) and felt a seam, they had cut the top off and placed something in it (on the one side) or had "filled" the pip. so the rule was made and has been enforced since. The other thing about this method is that for a realitively low cost you can give the losers of the tourney something, the table dice.

Regards,
Carl

All nkelsch has done is say that Rented Tritium is a liar. Can you provide links, or any kind of research that proves what you are saying? Besides being very rude, you've got no proof at all that you've shown us, so why should we listen to anything you are saying?

Rented Tritium wrote:

Changing to dice which are used to cheat with makes you a cheater.

Man, this is getting really close to offending me. You need to back off.

29% 1s is a lie. If your promoting that lie for your casino dice, then that calls in to question your entire motivation.

Dice can be biased for many reasons, but at least understand the reasons and then you wills ee in wargaming the reasons boil down in an insignificant justification. Dice are biased due to internal flaws or not being square. Drilled PIPs and the 6 vs 1 has nothing to do with it as balanced dice with drilled pips can be fair. The truth is low-quality Die can be pre-disposed to *ANY* side based upon the flaw. They will never be uniformly biased to 1s as that is a LIE because 1s usually mean bad things for wargamers. If you accept that biased dice become biased independently to a specific side at random, and then you mix a batch of potentially biased dice into other biased die, the dice randomly sill offset each other to provide a 'random enough' response. While we often get that feeling where that one die is lucky or bad, it is probably true... Someone who tests his unbalance dice to roll his 6 dice for his high rolls and his 1 dice for low rolls is an issue. Hence the big brick cube works and is totally fair and functional for wargaming, especially if every player uses the same dice for every roll.

http://dicephysics.info/0107.htm

Casino dice become damaged and unbalanced almost immediately on wargaming surfaces which defeats the purpose of using them unless they are used as segregated rolls for only LD and armor save rolls, which most people see as an 'issue' when someone uses different dice for rolling general rolls and special dice for important rolls. Casino dice eventually become no better than biased dice very quickly.

The issue with casino dice is I have never met a person who uses 36+ of them. They only have a pair for special rolls and they never use a dice cup. Using different dice for different rolls is cheating in every situation. Using perfectly balanced dice without a dice cup defeats the purpose of the perfect dice as you are not rolling them perfectly.

When you boil it down, and accept the 29% 1s is a lie in every way, the biased dice become perfectly fair and usable, and the risk of techniques for influencing specific rolls becomes unreasonable.

Casino dice are trouble... and have no justification in wargaming. I will distrust you for having them either because you are promoting lies which makes me distrust you or are talking a good game about dice precision but are not following through due to rolling them in a way which is not random (no bank, no felt surface, no dice cup). If you don't share (which you said you did) would be 3 strikes and the game would be over.

Changing to certain dice because you feel or believe you know, that it gives you higher or lower rolls, is certainly bad sportsmanship.

The rules of the games are written under the assumption that dice rolls are random, your opponent should be playing under the assumption that you are using dice that will produce a 'fair ratio' of the numbers on faces.

So, using dice that you know or believe you know will give you higher chances of certain faces is not in the spirit of gaming.

I don't think anyone is talking about only using casino dice for certain rolls? I personally have a set of 20 that I use for all my dice rolling, besides the scatter die. Is that against the spirit of gaming, MeanGreenStompa?

There was a single study shown that indicates that chessex dice roll more 1's than sharp edged dice. If that's all we consider necessary to hold it as a scientific fact, then, well, I really don't know what to say.

I have some game science dice, and I have even more chessex dice. In my own super accurate, doubleplus-foolproof study, I've seen roughly the same percentage of 1's come out of the game science dice as I have the chessex dice for a given margin of error.

I still prefer my chessex dice, because they have a little Dakka Dakka logo on them.

nkelsch wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:

Changing to dice which are used to cheat with makes you a cheater.

Man, this is getting really close to offending me. You need to back off.

29% 1s is a lie. If your promoting that lie for your casino dice, then that calls in to question your entire motivation.

Let's suppose you are right and 29% isn't true, you still don't seem to understand the difference between "wrong" and "lying". I'm basing the 29% on this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
Which has been posted previously in this thread without challenge.

Dice can be biased for many reasons, but at least understand the reasons and then you wills ee in wargaming the reasons boil down in an insignificant justification. Dice are biased due to internal flaws or not being square. Drilled PIPs and the 6 vs 1 has nothing to do with it as balanced dice with drilled pips can be fair. The truth is low-quality Die can be pre-disposed to *ANY* side based upon the flaw. They will never be uniformly biased to 1s

This is interesting and I'd like to read more about it. It certainly seems plausible that it could be any side and some of the tests we've seen conducted just happened to get a lot of 1s.

as that is a LIE because 1s usually mean bad things for wargamers.

And here we go again where you conflate "wrong" with "lying", insulting me personally.

If you accept that biased dice become biased independently to a specific side at random, and then you mix a batch of potentially biased dice into other biased die, the dice randomly sill offset each other to provide a 'random enough' response.

IF the variance is random and can be any side, this may be true, but only for large numbers. Because I often have to roll 1 or 2 dice, "random enough" can still screw me. I feel a lot more comfortable using precision dice for ALL rolls.

While we often get that feeling where that one die is lucky or bad, it is probably true... Someone who tests his unbalance dice to roll his 6 dice for his high rolls and his 1 dice for low rolls is an issue. Hence the big brick cube works and is totally fair and functional for wargaming, especially if every player uses the same dice for every roll.

Just because the big brick cube is "good enough" doesn't mean casino dice are bad. Assuming your assertions about the bias being on a random side are correct, rolling a large number is a good way to get around it, however I STILL would rather dice be individually random than random as a group because I often roll small numbers of them.

http://dicephysics.info/0107.htm

Great link! Notice however, that they found casino dice to be the fairest dice. Again, as I said before, I am not comfortable hoping the variances just come out in the wash when dice are available that ACTUALLY ROLL RANDOMLY.

Casino dice become damaged and unbalanced almost immediately on wargaming surfaces which defeats the purpose of using them

I'm not sure what your wargaming surfaces look like, but mine are actually quite similar to a craps table. Foam covered in grass mats are remarkably similar in terms of padding to the quarter inch felt of a craps table. If you are wargaming on cement, I feel sorry for you.

unless they are used as segregated rolls for only LD and armor save rolls, which most people see as an 'issue' when someone uses different dice for rolling general rolls and special dice for important rolls. Casino dice eventually become no better than biased dice very quickly.

Yeah. I've been using mine for a while and inspect them every now and then. They are not showing any edge wear yet and even when they do, I expect they will probably still spit out a more random result than chessex.

The issue with casino dice is I have never met a person who uses 36+ of them.

I have 10, I just roll them in batches. Works fine.

They only have a pair for special rolls and they never use a dice cup.

And you are assuming this is what I do because?

Using different dice for different rolls is cheating in every situation.

And you are assuming this is what I do because?

Using perfectly balanced dice without a dice cup defeats the purpose of the perfect dice as you are not rolling them perfectly.

So because my balanced dice might not be rolled perfectly and might not be random, I should give up and use dice that are guaranteed not to be random? No thanks.

When you boil it down, and accept the 29% 1s is a lie in every way

So when I completely accept your conclusions and ignore my own

, the biased dice become perfectly fair and usable, and the risk of techniques for influencing specific rolls becomes unreasonable.

Again, you still haven't shown that casino dice are any more easy to influence than chessex. You've seen a guy manipulate casino dice? I've seen a guy manipulate chessex. now what?

Casino dice are trouble... and have no justification in wargaming.

You heard it here first, folks. Dice that are more balanced and more random have no justification in wargaming

I will distrust you for having them either because you are promoting lies

Wow.

which makes me distrust you or are talking a good game about dice precision but are not following through due to rolling them in a way which is not random (no bank, no felt surface, no dice cup). If you don't share (which you said you did) would be 3 strikes and the game would be over.

We wouldn't need 3 strikes. I wouldn't play you in the first place.

Nkelsch, your tone is inappropriate for this conversation. I don't know what has your dander up, but your choice of language is not appropriate. Don't try to argue how you're right, or how you're not sugarcoating the truth, or you're telling it like it is. You're being rude by calling Rented Tritium a liar instead of simply debating the facts.

Rented Tritium wrote:Let's suppose you are right and 29% isn't true, you still don't seem to understand the difference between "wrong" and "lying". I'm basing the 29% on this
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
Which has been posted previously in this thread without challenge.

multiple people have challeneged that post within this thread. For a die to produce those results you have two ways of doing so... Flatting or Loading. Most 'imperfect' dice are either not perfect squares (flatted) or have internal dice flaws which results in LOADING due to the molding process.

The issue is for a dice to produce 29% 1s, it would have to be flatted to such an amazing degree that it would be a visible rectangle. Even dice with internal flaws (airbubbles as shown by gamescience) show that not even the worst internal flaw can bias a dice to 29% 1s. The issue is the 29% 1s article posted on Dakka is a lie which doesn't follow any of the other scientific processes brought forth by other dice manufacturers or the dozens of people who have written scientific studdies on dice physics. We all know dice can be biased, but they are not rolling 29% 1s and never were. If you quote that, then you simply should not be trusted as that study isn't even a study considering how people are rolling and recording dice 1.3 million times a day opposed to handrolling dice in his kitchen.

http://dicephysics.info/0107.htm

Great link! Notice however, that they found casino dice to be the fairest dice. Again, as I said before, I am not comfortable hoping the variances just come out in the wash when dice are available that ACTUALLY ROLL RANDOMLY.

When rolled on a casino surface with a dice cup and/or a bank... none of which is ever done with casino dice in wargaming, Hence the problem... Especially since casino dice when rolled 3 or less can be directly influenced by the roller.

Casino dice become damaged and unbalanced almost immediately on wargaming surfaces which defeats the purpose of using them

I'm not sure what your wargaming surfaces look like, but mine are actually quite similar to a craps table. Foam covered in grass mats are remarkably similar in terms of padding to the quarter inch felt of a craps table. If you are wargaming on cement, I feel sorry for you.

Many tables have gravel and rough surfaces and dice bump into hard terrain.

unless they are used as segregated rolls for only LD and armor save rolls, which most people see as an 'issue' when someone uses different dice for rolling general rolls and special dice for important rolls. Casino dice eventually become no better than biased dice very quickly.

Yeah. I've been using mine for a while and inspect them every now and then. They are not showing any edge wear yet and even when they do, I expect they will probably still spit out a more random result than chessex.

Except that your dice can be influenced by rolling techniques, which are out there where people roll special dice with special techniques to always make armor saves and stuff like that.

The issue with casino dice is I have never met a person who uses 36+ of them.

I have 10, I just roll them in batches. Works fine.

Wow, so when my 25 slugga boyz assault, we really are going to roll those 10 dice over and over and over... and it will be your dice as I will be molesting your dice as frequently as possible if you dare bring up 29%1s in a competative environment.

They only have a pair for special rolls and they never use a dice cup.

And you are assuming this is what I do because?

Using different dice for different rolls is cheating in every situation.

And you are assuming this is what I do because?

Because you would be the single person who uses a dice cup and rolls all your rolls on community dice when using casino dice if you actually do it.

Using perfectly balanced dice without a dice cup defeats the purpose of the perfect dice as you are not rolling them perfectly.

So because my balanced dice might not be rolled perfectly and might not be random, I should give up and use dice that are guaranteed not to be random? No thanks.

If both people are sharing the same pool and the individual bias of any individual dice is not tracked, then the overall pool of rolls are randomized and fair for both players. I would rather see common dice with individual unknown bias being used opposed to harder-to-use casino dice which are bad for mass rolling which are easily influenced by unscrupulous players. If both players share the bias with community dice, then the fairness is intact. When one person can use techniques on the 'perfect' dice, the fairness is not intact.

When you boil it down, and accept the 29% 1s is a lie in every way

So when I completely accept your conclusions and ignore my own

There is a lot of research against the 29%1s and that article isn't even scientifically valid on its face.

, the biased dice become perfectly fair and usable, and the risk of techniques for influencing specific rolls becomes unreasonable.

Again, you still haven't shown that casino dice are any more easy to influence than chessex. You've seen a guy manipulate casino dice? I've seen a guy manipulate chessex. now what?

You have not seen anyone manipulate chessex. Never happened. But there are hundreds of documented proof of people manipulating casno dice especially in the wargaming community. Feel free to find me the person who can roll a 4+ with 99% accuracy with a chessex on a wargaming surface. Doesn't exist.

Casino dice are trouble... and have no justification in wargaming.

You heard it here first, folks. Dice that are more balanced and more random have no justification in wargaming

Dice that need to be rolled with a cup or use a bank on a felt casino surface and can be easily manipulated with rolling techniques have no place in wargaming.

I will distrust you for having them either because you are promoting lies

Wow.

which makes me distrust you or are talking a good game about dice precision but are not following through due to rolling them in a way which is not random (no bank, no felt surface, no dice cup). If you don't share (which you said you did) would be 3 strikes and the game would be over.

We wouldn't need 3 strikes. I wouldn't play you in the first place.

If you walk in an spout BS about 29% 1s, no one should play you if you honestly believe that. Please take a picture of the dice cup you use because I don't believe it exists. Is it a rubberized inside or a ribbed inside? Which do you prefer since there are different impacts of both.

Everyone in the club I game with uses the GW cubes. We don't have a rule or anything that dictates it to be this way, it's just how it happens to be. Dice rolls end up being average, it's nice.

I have seen however that some makes of dice roll poorly compared to others. I have two sets of GF9 dice, they look cool, but they're only good for Ld tests. A friend of mine has two identical sets of the GF9 dice as well and again, they're only good for Ld tests. Crazy!

I don't believe that using dice that are fabricated better than the next is cheating, however it can swing the balance of the game in your favor so it would be in the spirit of the game to offer your opponent the opportunity to use your finely crafted dice as well.

oni wrote:I have seen however that some makes of dice roll poorly compared to others. I have two sets of GF9 dice, they look cool, but they're only good for Ld tests. A friend of mine has two identical sets of the GF9 dice as well and again, they're only good for Ld tests. Crazy!

So, is this you admitting that you cheat by using dice that roll lower due to their flawed design for tests that you want to roll low on?

Great White wrote:What ever you want. If someone won't play with you because of dice, they are probably some one you don't want to be around.

This is exactly my thinking, every time.

Just a point of note for those of the dice are dice persuasion. At a con a while back they gave out special dice with admission. My buddy Dave who was playing IG went out and rounded up a ton of extras so he had enough for the upcoming tournament. By round three Dave was having a fit about how poorly his dice were rolling. He swore the dice were biased to roll 1's. After the tourni I rounded up dice and did a statistical analysis of the dice. They did in fact roll Far more 1s. Keep in mind that those additonal ones rolled are being rolled because other numbers are coming up less often. In this instance 4s were coming up slightly more often too and the other numbers on the die were significantly below their norm. So much so that over the course of his game, Dave had hit with far less shots than was the statistical average, made less armor saves and lost in a pay to play event.
Moral of the story. It really does matter especially when you are throwing as many dice as a gaurd or a ork player has to throw in a game. More dice thrown results in a greater likelyhood of a normal curve being represented when you total your results.