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alarmingrick wrote:

Joey wrote:If I wanted special weapons wouldn't I be best off with as many veteran squads as possible?

Yes, but you'll also need Chimera or Valkyrie/Vendettas for them to be at their best. Well, Imho.

Right, you can do vet squads in foot lists, but it's a little tricky.

You may be better off with plasma stormies here.

I almost always take 2 swt with my platoons equiped with 3 flamers. They come out at around 50 pts, so aren't too expensive. I find they have multiple advantages like counter-attack and being able to hit units in cover and removing their cover save. A big advantage is there's no Roll-to-hit! With two troop choices of platoons, you can get 4 of these squads for 200 points and they deal a lot of damage to hoards and blobs for their pt. costs.

Trying to keep with your theme, but at a shorter effective killing range; Chimera's may actually be counter productive to the punch of the list with the opportunity cost, thats almost 4 plasmas. So;
CCS Plasma x 4
CCS Plasma x 4
PCS Plasma x 4
IS x 4 Comm, melta x 4, power weapon x 5
SWS Plasma x 3
Conscripts x 20
Vets Plasma x 3
Vendetta x2, or Vendetta & Rough riders (probably 2 small squads), or LRBT (those plates might get a bit close..) & riders/vendetta etc
1170

A semi circle on your edge at the best terrain point with the plasma inside leaving no area to jump into. The 41 man blob bubble wraps the plasma and the riders, the conscripts act as a smaller semi circle "shield" that points at the bad guys. You need to leave less than a base size gap between each to prevent an easy multicharge.

The plasma in the list can kill 18 2+ models a turn with rapid fire, the conscripts are meant to fold to give you the plasma beta, power weapons kill the FNP 3+ on a five so the blob should hold the charge with the 30+ Str 5 attacks or give the charge if able and still keep the stars, counter attack with the rough riders. Against AV 12 with Bring It Down the plasma would also average 5 pens, but then the melta would be a better target for that order if able. If you use the gunships, you can put the vets in or hop the plasma sws in first turn, but keep them away from the blobs, this may make him spread his force which will make it easier for you kill zone to do its work. Small squads of rough riders can clean up almost dead BA squads nicely.

Should actually make for an interesting game as most of the action will be close, if the shield is good you should have the firepower to blow him away at "in your face" level.

Joey wrote:I did mention foot guard. Unfortunately I don't have the resources to really field chimeras, much as I'd love to.
Actually I suppose if I wasn't using any actual tanks I could proxy chimeras as long as there weren't TOO many.
I never thought it was possible for guard to win without plentiful AV14.

Have you tried the foot vet squads with 3 PGs?

The point of the story I gave about my friend's army was to get you thinking about PG, not to make you wish you could afford Chimeras.
If PG are the key to beating his army, how can you best incorporate them into your army?

+1 to what Barathoern said.
Fill in your back field with the SWS, PCS, CCS and other stuff to prevent those sang from deep striking behind your wall. Have some speed bumps in front of the blobs.

..oooo speed bump oooo..............oooo speed bump oooo
.......oooooOOOoooooo......................ooooooOOOooooo
...................Blob...................................................Blob
.....[SWS].................[PCS]................[SWS].........................[PCS]
.................[tank]...................[CCS].....................[tank]

Speed bump takes the charge.
The blob blasts transports to delay assualts, vehicles do not get cover saves from you firing behind speed bump because they are too big.)
Spread the SWS & PCS out behind blobs to prevent deep strike, rushes forward through small gaps to flame assualters.
CCS gives "Bring it Down!" orders until lines are reached then switch to "FrFsrF!".)
Tanks Pie plate popped transport with Ap3 instant death, arm with lascannon to help pop or help clean up when they are too close.

What i'm going to try next game.

ooooOOOoooo.........ooooOOOoooo...........ooooOOOoooo
ooooBloBoooo.........ooooBloBoooo...........ooooBloBoooo
o......[CCS]..................[Rough Riders]..................[CCS]......o
o...................................[Rough Riders]..................................o
[PCS]..................................[PCS].....................................[PCS]
o......[Tank]....................[Manticore].........................[Tank]....o
o.................................................................................................o

30 man blob w/commissar, 4 p.wpn, 3 plasma guns, 3 melta bombs, 3 lascannons
PCS w/4 flamers, melta bombs
CCS w/2 flamers, autocannon, Master of ordnance, krak grenades
2 LRMBT w/ flamers
1 Manticore
2 6 man Rough Riders (act as my speed bumps)
(This is a 2000pt list, 1500 pt remove 1 platoon and 1 CCS, give other CCS melta bombs.)

All the melta bombs are for stopping tank shocks and walkers disrupting my lines. The PCS is there to prevent outflanking or outflanking tank shocks with melta bombs.
Once they get close I move Rough Riders through gaps and with "Move Move Move!" fleet and charge in. Gaps are there also to prevent multi-charging. Everything is spread out to prevent deep striking inside my line. Even 2, 30 man blobs is enough to put a line across your entire deployment 2 deep.

Anyway those are my plans and I posted them to maybe inspire an idea and share. I'm still a newb so take anything I say with a grain of salt.



(They say a picture is worth a thousand words so to keep my post short I'll post one.)
(you would spread them out a little more to save them from blasts and templates.)

cmac wrote:Trying to keep with your theme, but at a shorter effective killing range; Chimera's may actually be counter productive to the punch of the list with the opportunity cost, thats almost 4 plasmas. So;
CCS Plasma x 4
CCS Plasma x 4
PCS Plasma x 4
IS x 4 Comm, melta x 4, power weapon x 5
SWS Plasma x 3
Conscripts x 20
Vets Plasma x 3
Vendetta x2, or Vendetta & Rough riders (probably 2 small squads), or LRBT (those plates might get a bit close..) & riders/vendetta etc
1170

A semi circle on your edge at the best terrain point with the plasma inside leaving no area to jump into. The 41 man blob bubble wraps the plasma and the riders, the conscripts act as a smaller semi circle "shield" that points at the bad guys. You need to leave less than a base size gap between each to prevent an easy multicharge.

The plasma in the list can kill 18 2+ models a turn with rapid fire, the conscripts are meant to fold to give you the plasma beta, power weapons kill the FNP 3+ on a five so the blob should hold the charge with the 30+ Str 5 attacks or give the charge if able and still keep the stars, counter attack with the rough riders. Against AV 12 with Bring It Down the plasma would also average 5 pens, but then the melta would be a better target for that order if able. If you use the gunships, you can put the vets in or hop the plasma sws in first turn, but keep them away from the blobs, this may make him spread his force which will make it easier for you kill zone to do its work. Small squads of rough riders can clean up almost dead BA squads nicely.

Should actually make for an interesting game as most of the action will be close, if the shield is good you should have the firepower to blow him away at "in your face" level.

Hmm. Thing is about half that list would be engaged turn 2, and turn 1 the enemy will be inside their transports and pretty far away. And the PCS/CCS will be dead or fleeing from enemy firepower.

Considering the Tau (who are in worse shape than the IG) can beat DoA Blood Angels, then yes, it is very possible for the Guard to do so.

You've just got to
-Bubblewrap
- Deploy in a refused flank
- Kill his dudes as they drop

Not so sure on that joey. What does his list look like?

something easy to proxy in is the nasty banewolf....its ap3..wounds on 2+ and is template, not to mention it also comes with a heavy flamer..2-3 of these is particularly nasty..it lays out wounds like butter..don't squad em up and you avoid the nasty shared damage..roll em up for the nice 4 to hit in cc and they can be pretty impressive..but they're a chimera so protect em with cover etc..you start laying in 4 templates ( 2 bane wolfs) and you are going to see mr nasty assault troops melt.i have a friend who plays ba so i really go outside the box when fighting him....i outflank where I can..speed bump him..deny flank..

I always thought that having two platoons with Al' and Chenkov would have some fun with a gun line army.

Outflank with Al', use conscripts in both armies for infinate troop fodder with Chenkov's "Send in the Next Wave".

Strakken is always good for a close combat punch. (Or Ogryns with Yarrick.)

There are a few things that might be helpful in your situation, but have not been mentioned in the thread until now.

One is the Master of Ordnance. You might not think very highly of him, but he can be very effective - especially against Blood Angels assault marines, since they get neither Armour Saves nor Feel no Pain, and they need to take a pinning test if they take at least one casualty. For 30 points that's a nice deal.

The issue of the pinning test leads us to another unit that might work well in a gunline IG army against Blood Angels: Psyker Battle Squads. Both their powers work very well against Blood Angels, though Mephiston's psychic hood can be quite irritating.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a squad of rough riders kept in reserve is extremely useful for a footslogging gunline IG army against marines - and even more so against Blood Angels, as their hunting lances ignore both armour and feel no pain.

A last side note concerns your Leman Russ Battle Tanks. If you experience, that you can keep alive and shooting during most of the game, then all is fine. If they usually die around turn 2 however, you might want to consider exchanging them for more foot soldiers of some kind - armour saturation might seem like a much too used word, but often it really means a lot how many tanks you have. For the 300 points invested in those 2 tanks you could instead get almost 25-30 rough riders and/or battle psykers.

Heimer wrote:There are a few things that might be helpful in your situation, but have not been mentioned in the thread until now.

One is the Master of Ordnance. You might not think very highly of him, but he can be very effective - especially against Blood Angels assault marines, since they get neither Armour Saves nor Feel no Pain, and they need to take a pinning test if they take at least one casualty. For 30 points that's a nice deal.

The issue of the pinning test leads us to another unit that might work well in a gunline IG army against Blood Angels: Psyker Battle Squads. Both their powers work very well against Blood Angels, though Mephiston's psychic hood can be quite irritating.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a squad of rough riders kept in reserve is extremely useful for a footslogging gunline IG army against marines - and even more so against Blood Angels, as their hunting lances ignore both armour and feel no pain.

A last side note concerns your Leman Russ Battle Tanks. If you experience, that you can keep alive and shooting during most of the game, then all is fine. If they usually die around turn 2 however, you might want to consider exchanging them for more foot soldiers of some kind - armour saturation might seem like a much too used word, but often it really means a lot how many tanks you have. For the 300 points invested in those 2 tanks you could instead get almost 25-30 rough riders and/or battle psykers.

I have the MOO model and I do really like using him, just at such a small points window (1250-1500) there aren't really enough enemy models for him to hit.
Rough Riders look...intreiging. 10 points a model for something that will deliver 20 S5 PW attacks on the charge, that's about 6-7 MEQ dead by my reconning, and that's before they get to strike back. Could be devestating in combination with power blobs. But then that's 105 points which is enough for some meltavets or a hydra.
Not sure about pyskers. I suppose it'd be useful making enemy objective holders run off the board, but then with a chimera that's 160 points, and they tend to be a big target.
How about this for 1250:

CCS(plasma,MOTF,power fist)-155
4*veterans(plasma)-460
Devil Dog(multi-melta)*3-405
Hydra*3-225


tsf-1245
That'd give me 6 AV12 that can smash through rhino/razorbacks, predators, land raidors and storm ravens, then 16 plasma guns to finish off the marines inside.

Joey wrote:

Heimer wrote:There are a few things that might be helpful in your situation, but have not been mentioned in the thread until now.

One is the Master of Ordnance. You might not think very highly of him, but he can be very effective - especially against Blood Angels assault marines, since they get neither Armour Saves nor Feel no Pain, and they need to take a pinning test if they take at least one casualty. For 30 points that's a nice deal.

The issue of the pinning test leads us to another unit that might work well in a gunline IG army against Blood Angels: Psyker Battle Squads. Both their powers work very well against Blood Angels, though Mephiston's psychic hood can be quite irritating.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, a squad of rough riders kept in reserve is extremely useful for a footslogging gunline IG army against marines - and even more so against Blood Angels, as their hunting lances ignore both armour and feel no pain.

A last side note concerns your Leman Russ Battle Tanks. If you experience, that you can keep alive and shooting during most of the game, then all is fine. If they usually die around turn 2 however, you might want to consider exchanging them for more foot soldiers of some kind - armour saturation might seem like a much too used word, but often it really means a lot how many tanks you have. For the 300 points invested in those 2 tanks you could instead get almost 25-30 rough riders and/or battle psykers.

I have the MOO model and I do really like using him, just at such a small points window (1250-1500) there aren't really enough enemy models for him to hit.
Rough Riders look...intreiging. 10 points a model for something that will deliver 20 S5 PW attacks on the charge, that's about 6-7 MEQ dead by my reconning, and that's before they get to strike back. Could be devestating in combination with power blobs. But then that's 105 points which is enough for some meltavets or a hydra.
Not sure about pyskers. I suppose it'd be useful making enemy objective holders run off the board, but then with a chimera that's 160 points, and they tend to be a big target.
How about this for 1250:

CCS(plasma,MOTF,power fist)-155
4*veterans(plasma)-460
Devil Dog(multi-melta)*3-405
Hydra*3-225


tsf-1245
That'd give me 6 AV12 that can smash through rhino/razorbacks, predators, land raidors and storm ravens, then 16 plasma guns to finish off the marines inside.

Can't you read? It says 'gunline'! Geezzzz!

Seriously, I'd put each hydra in a seperate squadron. Gives you better target selection and easier to hide.

My last BA game I got owned by a gunline with sacrificial infantry squads and countercharging rough riders. I knew they were going to hit me of course but his entire deployment zone was wall to wall dudes, so I had no other options than coming head-on