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Jinkazeal wrote:
@Hawaiimatt- Yes you would completely out deploy me. I would use my gutter runners and giant rats as aggressive gnoblar destroyers. The furnace does cause terror on charge, so they could sweep some off quickly. The aboms would be slowed by the gnoblars, which could take a few turns to grind.

But between the slaves and my slightly superior trash units, I could clear the way for at least one charge, hopefully securing a small victory. The small size of the blocks with no stubborn crown makes me confident I can lock up and grind away with no worries.

Gnoblars are far cheaper than your slave units, and unit for unit, a single sabertusk on a flank will wreck giant rats. M8 + swiftstrider means an average charge of 17", well out distancing the giant rats. Add in you Ld5 fear test, and the lone sabre tusk is a good bet. Unbuffed, any of those ogre blocks is looking at ~15 wounds a round vs slaves. The ogre (bulls) are 4 deep. Ironblasters double tap seerer, and since you're putting the BSB right next to him, I'll bounce every shot through both. Funny thing about type: unique, you're not on the short list of things that stops a ball from bouncing. So it's be a look out for the BSB along with tapping the bell, with each successful shot.
Why shoot aboms? Don't need to. The flaming iron guts or the guts+firebelly should on average, kill the abom in 1 round of combat.

I look forward to your first experience with bell+furnace and the hell heart. I like the miscast table when you are touching 15 of your own models with each.

-Matt

On a somewhat less aggressive note:

I'll PM you with some contact info so I can buy you a beer (or a beverage of your choice) in Dallas. Please do post up a summary of the tourney once done- even a one paragraph on each game is good. I'm interested to see how you do with the list!

RZ

Yeah, you have to do a summary of the Lone Wolf using your slave list after a thread like this, lol.

But really; I'd like to see how this list plays out. I run a more balanced skaven army myself, but I'm always curious to see how other skaven players run their show.

I'll put this one forward:


Lords:
Master Necro
-lvl4
-talisman of preservation

Heroes:
necromancer
-lvl1

necromancer
-lvl1

necromancer
-lvl1

necromancer
-lvl1

Core:
40 zombies

40 zombies

30 zombies

30 zombies

30 zombies

10 direwolves

10 direwolves

Special:
8 crypt horrors

8 crypt horrors

1 spirit host

1 spirit host

1 spirit host

2 bat swarm

Rare:
1 Black Coach

1 mortis engine
-blasphemous tome


This list includes several aspects common to the VC lists floating around at the moment. Tons of zombies, one drop spirit hosts, multiple wizards with the lore of vampires for magic, etc. Victory against your skaven with this list would depend of the winds of magic. If they are favorable, you may find yourself outnumbered. Not a usual state of affairs for skaven, I know, but I've played a 2250 version of this list and so far my record is 143 zombies raised in a single turn. If you were to botch even one magic phase... Combine that with undead staying power, fear, and the other VC spells, and you will have a hell of a time outlasting the restless dead.

Now, remind me: Do hellpits have magic attacks? If not, they can easily be held up indefinitely by 45 point spirit hosts until help comes. If they do have magic attacks, they could be more problematic. This list could have trouble with them, but figure that it is more likely that you will see two terrogeists rather than a coach and an engine in a VC list of this type. Those guys could potentially take out your hellpits.

Dire wolves could be used against your Giant rats or even Jizzails (sp?) and the bat swarms are just plain useful.

I don't play against skaven too frequently, so correct me if I'm wrong, but does your list have any good answer to 16 crypt horrors? Perhaps the cannon, but even with that you will likely only take out two per phase and there are better targets for your war machine. Supported by the lvl 4 necro, two full models will be able to come back in my magic phase. They should be a match for your elite troops, and could, perhaps, even stand before your hordes (though maybe not the unit with the bell).

All in all, I think this list could give you a run for your money. It would likely come down to your ability to control the magic phase. How would you go about countering this one on the battlefield? I'm particularly interested how you think your slaves will fare against zombies when (in a perfect magic phase of course) any given unit could gain 10d6 +8 models. Also, how do you think the hellpits will fare?

-Jim

One of the hellpits has magical attacks, which will be a problem for you.
How do you plan on killing the T5 4+ regen abomination?

I've been kicking around the idea of adding a level 1 death necromancer as a sniper in my vampire lords unit. For the signature spell, the Ld7 necromancer would use the lords LD10, making it a real threat. Alternatively, stick the necro-sniper in with a wight king for Ld9 goodness.

-Matt

The warp lighting cannon also uses the small blast at the end of the bounce. So with amazing rolls, he can wipe 6 Horrors in one shot.

Plus Skaven magic is nasty in general; Scorch denies regen, and can put the hurt on Horrors as well, Crack's Call will eat up anything it touches, Death Frenzy will allow Horde Slaves to chew through Zombies with the quickness, and Warp Lighting will do bad things to Spirit Hosts, Bat Swarms, and can even be a threat to the Mortis Engine.
The HPA's and Plague Furnace can put the grind on any of your units, and come out on top.
If you find only of your units outside your casting bubble for Invo, you're going to lose droves of Wounds, and not be able to recover them.
This bog list can afford to ignore the Horrors for awhile if it means killing the Necros, as all you have to threaten the entire Skaven army with is 16 Horrors, and everything in the Skaven army is a threat to your list barring the Horrors.

Even the lowly Slave is a threat to your Neros, so what are you going to do with them?
If you spread your Necros out into each unit; the Skaven list has enough slaves to front charge your Zombies, and allocate all the attack he can onto the Necro until he dies.
If you bunker them all into one unit to make the best use of the Mortis, then all the Skaven player has to do is focus on getting into CC with just one unit of Zombies, and again; even Slaves will threaten your bunker. Plus, all the shooting/magic that will hit your bunker; you'll fail a "Look Our, Sir!" eventually.
The VC list also lacks heavy hitters, meaning you're going to be Invo-ing from T1, and hoping to out raise the Skaven list's ability to grind you down.

Don’t get me wrong; it would be a good match up if both generals are skilled, and entertaining to watch as Skaven Slaves actually do some Wounds.

Do you have some pictures of your army, love to see a pirate skaven army in it's full glory!

Well, the general idea is to have a two line formation. Three zombies hordes and crypt horrors make up the first line, with the nercos hunkered down in two 30 man zombie units in the second row on either side of the engine. Dire wolves can hang back, ready to meet surprises like gutter runners, or can move quickly to act as speed bumps and delay the advance of powerful units like the hellpits. The spirit hosts roam free as does the coach.

You guys are absolutely right. The necros are vulnerable, the hellpits are nasty, skaven magic is painful, and the horrors may not be enough in the way of hammers. If he manages to punch a hole in the front line an make his way to the second row where the necros are hunkered, I'm in trouble. That being said, There are five Necros. If one or two of them go down I will be hurt, but based on past experience it will not be a crippling blow. I'm confident that victory with this list rests on the magic phase.

My best answer to the hellpits is the coach. If it can siphon three dice by the time we reach combat (not an unreasonable assumption, but still up to chance) and I get the charge (up to skill this time) then I'm looking at d6+2 str 6 flaming impact hits, three str 5 flaming attacks from the wraith, and two str 5 flaming attacks from the nightmares. Now, I know this is a best case scenario, but I think the coach is a good bet.

The cannon could be a huge problem. The things I'm worried it will shoot come down in this order: 1) Mortis engine. 2) Lvl 4 necro 3) Black Coach 4) crypt horrors.

All in all, I think it would be a good battle. Terrain would be important, as would the winds of magic. I have a love/hate relationship with this list. Usually, I favor very consistent lists. This one is rather random. That being said, when its hot, its hot.

-Jim

Good call with Horde 'O Zombies up front.
If you do go that way it lets the Skaven list focus force on the center of your line.
You have 3 Hosts, and a bat swarm to run out and redirect, if you keep the Dire wolves back due to Gutters. You're counting on best case with a lot of things, and this bog list only has to get an avarage magic phase to be ugly.

I'm not saying you have a bad list; I just don’t think you have the hammers to deal with the Slaves and their support units quick enough.
If you were packing Ghouls, then things would be different, or if you dropped the Coach, and 2 Horrors from each unit for a pair of Vargulfs.

How often have you found the Horrors out of Invo range with that set up?

"Can you beat this?"

Any time a topic offers a challenge like that, I think most conversations are going to be doomed to a "I'd field this and that and this, and when you do this, I'll do that". Theoryhammer can only get us so far; unless it really can replace a game entirely, in which case, I ask: why play?

Seriously, though, it looks solid. You're taking lots of the most efficient units and so on. It looks like a pony with very few tricks, but just enough to be versatile. So, to answer: yes, I can beat it, I'm sure. Dwellers the Clanrats, maybe Death-snipe the BSB, while your fellow Skaven would find Plague useful, I'm sure. The lumberjacks of doom would fair well. Etc.
A hard counter? Maybe, but I don't really care to find it. It's a good list. A little risky for my tastes, and a little repetitive too, but a good list. The three units of Giant Rats are, as you say, the key factor.

Just another thought, but how about Tomb Kings?
No really, Tomb Kings.
Any of the sphinx style monsters (T8) do a pretty good job at punking the abominations.

Something like:
Level 4 high priest
2x Princes, with shields
2x necrotec
3x50 skeletons, full command
19 archers, standard and musican (body guard for liche)
3x Warsphinx with breathe
2x Catapults
Casket
Heirotitan

Warmachines spread out to limit losses from gutter runners.
1 burst of fire from archers has a good shot at panicking the runners. Magic is fairly strong with +D3 power dice and +D3 to each casting total. Light of death is very effective against anything not within 18" of the seer, and catapults are surprisingly good at whacking large models like a plague furnace. Skullstorm wrecks cheap deep units.

It's got the elements to go toe to toe with the skaven monsters and warmachines, and large numbers of infantry to go toe to toe with the slaves.
It's not a match up I'd be hoping for if I had your skaven list.

-Matt

Yes, we can beat this. Anyone who plays warhammer and has beat a competitive Skaven player can beat this list. Its nothing groundbreaking or unbeatable. Whats the point of this thread?

@Scubasteve04- I posted it in this format for a reason. I wanted aggressive and active replies like Hawaii's so I could see their mindset. I want to know how an opponent would approach this puzzle. Knowing their mindset is key to victory.

@HawaiiMatt- On the Ogres, it would be a mighty chaff fight of death. Chaff fights are crazy, heavily dependent on terrain and have plenty of good moments. I don't think I can further extrapolate that fight without playing a few times on the board.

On the Tomb Kings- I have faced TK before, and they have great answers to everything skaven put into play. The archer lists are actually scarier, because of the threat of Catapult+Arrow Blasts on Aboms/Furnace. Slaves can't put enough hurt on archers to really grind them by the end. I have won games against TK, mostly by some outdeploying and clutch cracks call. Warsphinxes are extra scary because of the crew's higher Ini for anti-cracks. My main goal in that fight would be preventing sphinxes from connecting to my Aboms. Its a tense battle for me, and I am glad that Tomb King players are few in number.

@Jim- That is a very interesting list. I have not fought against new Vamps yet, but seeing all that ethreal spam makes me want to take a second set of warpstone spikes haha. I would strive to kill the crypt horrors ASAP, then hunker down and wait until turn 6. Everything else is too large and point light.

@Mannfred- Its still a work in progress, but I should be finished by Lone Wolf (about two weeks). I will be sure to post some battle reports and pictures. Hopefully I remember!