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homsikpanda wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Stomp (afaik) is a special attack that super heavy walkers and gargantuan creatures get. You would need to check the Apocalypse rule book.

tried, that...can't find it =/

Page 91 and 92. Gargantuan Creatures have the Stomp attack, and Super-heavy Walkers have it too.

I was pretty sure it was under Super Heavy Walkers at the beginning, but I can't get an actual source till I get home Monday.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It really isnt bizarre, at all.

In fantasy it is the exact equivalent of wanting to know the base stats of a model, and any mundane equipment - the non secret stuff. You can ask for this at ANY time in fantasy and, before you state differently having just run a large one day fantasy tournament you would be WRONG to state you would be shown the door.

Refusing to answer a straightforward question such as this is indeed akin to cheating

FInally - nkesch did not contradict himself.

Asking which unit the opponent is going to assault is not asking to be shown information which much be shared. As such your opponent is under no compunction to answer
Asking to see the COMMON information that is available to BOTH players at ALL times is very, very different.

#

Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.
I am now beginning to see how all 40K armies have 1 List and thats it. (Purifier Spam , etc..etc.) its down to the fact that GW seem to have wanted it to appeal to the younger players and make it as easy as possble for them to strike a good win ratio regardless of what army they take.
I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.
You should declare then ask to see the Codex Entry. That would be far more sporting.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:It really isnt bizarre, at all.

In fantasy it is the exact equivalent of wanting to know the base stats of a model, and any mundane equipment - the non secret stuff. You can ask for this at ANY time in fantasy and, before you state differently having just run a large one day fantasy tournament you would be WRONG to state you would be shown the door.

Refusing to answer a straightforward question such as this is indeed akin to cheating

FInally - nkesch did not contradict himself.

Asking which unit the opponent is going to assault is not asking to be shown information which much be shared. As such your opponent is under no compunction to answer
Asking to see the COMMON information that is available to BOTH players at ALL times is very, very different.

#

Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.
I am now beginning to see how all 40K armies have 1 List and thats it. (Purifier Spam , etc..etc.) its down to the fact that GW seem to have wanted it to appeal to the younger players and make it as easy as possble for them to strike a good win ratio regardless of what army they take.
I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.
You should declare then ask to see the Codex Entry. That would be far more sporting.

Whether you're playing 40k or fantasy, your opponent is entitled to ask you questions about your army, including what stats/abilities certain models have. Also, your little passive-aggressive digs at 40k as appealing to younger players adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, except to show a little something about your maturity level.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.

Then you're playing it wrong.

Because he can get that information by simply picking up the book and looking for himself. It's not a secret. It's not tactical information. It's no different to claiming that your opponent shouldn't be allowed to ask what Rapid Fire does until you decide to shoot at his models with your bolters. It's ludicrous.

I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.

So, again, if your opponent is already familiar with your army's stats before the game, does he have to have his memory wiped for you to not consider him a cheat?

Codexes aren't some sort of secret club book only available to players who are currently fielding that army. Both players are entitled to see the rules in play.

GBDarkAngel wrote:
Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.
I am now beginning to see how all 40K armies have 1 List and thats it. (Purifier Spam , etc..etc.) its down to the fact that GW seem to have wanted it to appeal to the younger players and make it as easy as possble for them to strike a good win ratio regardless of what army they take.
I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.
You should declare then ask to see the Codex Entry. That would be far more sporting.

Stop saying "we", it is simply your local group who just play differently to everyone else. I've played in a lot of fantasy tournaments (and run a few, so know what im talking about here) and failure to state SHARED information, which the standard mundane equipment a character has (and magical, if a special character), is cheating.

Pure and simple.

Also - seriously, do you have to lower your arguments worth even further by digging at the complexity of 40k? Purifier spam is the only list for GKs? You're so far from right its untrue.

Finally: your idea of sporting is not the same as any other peoples - and you have consistently failed to answer the question "what if I already know the stats, or find out elsewhere?" I know the stats of most models in the game, as I own all the codexes - so in your world I would be being unsporting?

Not a hope.

Your opinion on how the game should work has no basis in rules or common sportsmanship across the country.

insaniak wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.

Then you're playing it wrong.

Because he can get that information by simply picking up the book and looking for himself. It's not a secret. It's not tactical information. It's no different to claiming that your opponent shouldn't be allowed to ask what Rapid Fire does until you decide to shoot at his models with your bolters. It's ludicrous.

I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.

So, again, if your opponent is already familiar with your army's stats before the game, does he have to have his memory wiped for you to not consider him a cheat?

Codexes aren't some sort of secret club book only available to players who are currently fielding that army. Both players are entitled to see the rules in play.

i can honestly say in many years of playing pickups, arranged, tournaments that is actually the first time that i have even been asked for my codex so my opponent could read up for the specific reason to see what was easier to kill.
I have been asked what certain units consist of and i have disclosed items my units, lord, heroes were carrying when they needed to be disclosed and not once has someone said that i was playing it wrong.
The bottom line is you decide what to attack, you roll to hit, wound and your opponent takes any saves he is entitled to. If you require clarification on what saved him or what killed you then ask him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:
Ok we will agree to disagree. In fantasy we indeed tell our opponent anything he asks but in a situation where he could charge 1 of 2 Special Chars or Lords / Heroes he would only be given the information after the charge is declared or when he nominates which one he will attack.
I am now beginning to see how all 40K armies have 1 List and thats it. (Purifier Spam , etc..etc.) its down to the fact that GW seem to have wanted it to appeal to the younger players and make it as easy as possble for them to strike a good win ratio regardless of what army they take.
I also think its cheating more if you want to read all the info on 2 x Special Characters before you decide which one to attack.
You should declare then ask to see the Codex Entry. That would be far more sporting.

Stop saying "we", it is simply your local group who just play differently to everyone else. I've played in a lot of fantasy tournaments (and run a few, so know what im talking about here) and failure to state SHARED information, which the standard mundane equipment a character has (and magical, if a special character), is cheating.

Pure and simple.

Also - seriously, do you have to lower your arguments worth even further by digging at the complexity of 40k? Purifier spam is the only list for GKs? You're so far from right its untrue.

Finally: your idea of sporting is not the same as any other peoples - and you have consistently failed to answer the question "what if I already know the stats, or find out elsewhere?" I know the stats of most models in the game, as I own all the codexes - so in your world I would be being unsporting?

Not a hope.

Your opinion on how the game should work has no basis in rules or common sportsmanship across the country.

Ok tell you what....Show me in the Rule Book where it states you need to delcare all your info to your opponent prior to the game starting and i will happily concede.
I can pretty much figure out what any opponent has after 1 or 2 turns. I dont need to get all hyper and in his face.
If an opponent should wish to see my list he is more than welcome to do so.
End of debate.

How about page 92 (under A Note on Secrecy) of the Main Rulebook where it says that it is the norm in tournements to fully disclose the full roster of each player?
Does this satisfy your need for a specific rule? If not, then there is no satisfying you and there is no need to continue the discussion.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:How about page 92 (under A Note on Secrecy) of the Main Rulebook where it says that it is the norm in tournements to fully disclose the full roster of each player?
Does this satisfy your need for a specific rule? If not, then there is no satisfying you and there is no need to continue the discussion.

Cheers Leo - That was actually all i asked at the start as i clearly stated i had never came across it before.

Actually having read that passage you have been a little scrupulous with the wording

"To Keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after the Game.
It also states. " You can agree to read each others before the Game".
"Some players prefer Full Disclosure (seems thats the norm in tournaments) However not mandatory.
"Other prefer to leave a feel of secrecy around their lists, as bluffing can make a game REALLY ENTERTAINING (WTF!!! GW how dare you suggest we make a hobby entertaining...I dont pay hundreds of pounds to be entertained....Oh wait..Yes i do.)

Nice debate guys...Thanks

GBDarkAngel wrote:
Im curious about something else.
When you guys attend 40k tourneys do you all hand your opponent a list?

Where exactly is the skill in 40k?

Yes, I do. Just as i do in all open gaming. Most tournaments require it, in fact.

Where's the skill? the skill is I'm going to beat you even tho you know exactly what I have. beating you because you're unaware of some stat or special rule, that doesn't require any skill.

Oh, and if you really read page 92, you'll note that both players have to agree to any sectrecy. If one doesn't, then it doesn't exist. Deal with it. Speaking as a former GW US GT judge, I know who I would have reprimanded had this situation occured in a GT. And it ain't your opponent.

As above

Any tournament I run where you dont disclose knowledge that MUST be shared is a tournament where your chances of winning have been severely reduced

Especially if you show the same attitude there as you have here

I'm with GBDarkAngel on this one.

All a player is required to do to fulfill the "full disclosure" is to show the other player your army list before the game starts and to show him where a rule is in the codex if there is a dispute or question. If the other player was that unfamiliar with your army then he can ask to see the codex before the game starts during the explain your army part of pregame, that’s what I do if I don’t know what a model/unit does. To ask to dig through your codex to find a weakness in the middle of the game (to me at least) is being TFG and has nothing to do with lack of disclosure.

So, you expect your opponent to remember absolutely everuything about your army pregame?

No, that isnt what P92 says, at all. So, not only are YOU the one being "TFG" by not disclosing when asked, youre also breaking the rules and cheating.

Yup, there is it, "force roster". Mentioned multiple times, yet I see no reference to making the codex available.

But wait, what is this I see? "To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your FORCE ROSTER AFTER the game." (BRB, p92, A NOTE ON SECRECY)

The BRB then further states, "However, BEFORE starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponent's FORCE ROSTER BEFORE AND DURING the game." (BRB, p92, A NOTE ON SECRECY)

So, if GBDarkAngel and his opponent did not agree to allow reading during the game then GBDarkAngel is doing nothing wrong and is not being TFG. Furthermore, the full disclosure statement in the BRB states "force roster” not codex. So, next time everyone starts throwing a page number around make sure the entire paragraph is read first. I am seeing no place where it says showing your codex is required.

As far as if I expect my opponent to remember everything…No I do not, but I expect him to remember which model was mentioned to be hand to hand and which was not. I also do not expect him to remember what each power does in detail, but I do expect him to know Seth can do a whirlwind attack. Especially if I took the time to answer his question (if he had one) on what were Seth’s special rules and allowed him to read the entry himself before the game started (or even during my deployment). And I would be fine with him asking to see the codex and the rule when I used the special rules of a model. I DO NOT expect him to want to read the entire entry on my all units so he can make a tactical decision. I would also be fine with him asking to read my codex while it was my turn so he can plan ahead. I find it shady to effectively stop a game so he can get up to speed on my army.

@hisdudeness - In all honesty m8 there seems little point in arguing this one as the others including US GT Judge (what exactly is that? Is that someone who sits on a chair at tournaments making decisions on rules that he obviously cant understand himself?) just seem to want to take the words from the paragraphs that suit them and combine them to make whole new rules that dont exist.
Im sure GW will receive a gazillion emails tomorrow demanding that rule be included in the 6th Edition.

I prefer my games to be entertaining and require some thought.
Maybe the rest of you should try it one game and see if it enhances your experience or would not seeing your opponents list before hand prevent you from running to the toilet cubicle and list tailoring.

GBDarkAngel wrote:

I prefer my games to be entertaining and require some thought.
Maybe the rest of you should try it one game and see if it enhances your experience or would not seeing your opponents list before hand prevent you from running to the toilet cubicle and list tailoring.

IE: I like to cheat and break the game as the game is not designed for or balanced for secrecy.

And your army roster includes 100% of the rules, stats and information about the unit... IE: everything in the codex. There is not a single thing you are allowed to not disclose.

The default is full disclosure. Secrecy is a non-standard agreement between players... an agreement *NO ONE* ever agrees to because no one plays 40k that way.

hisdudeness wrote:So, if GBDarkAngel and his opponent did not agree to allow reading during the game then GBDarkAngel is doing nothing wrong and is not being TFG. Furthermore, the full disclosure statement in the BRB states "force roster” not codex. So, next time everyone starts throwing a page number around make sure the entire paragraph is read first. I am seeing no place where it says showing your codex is required.

You're confusing a couple of different issues here.

The section that deals with showing your roster to an opponent is talking about the actual army list. It's talking about showing your opponent that everything you had on the table is accounted for, and that the points actally add up to what they should have been.

It is nothing whatsoever to do with showing your opponent the rules that apply to your army. Ideally, there shouldn't be any need for you to specifically show these to an opponent, because both players should have access to them or be familiar with them anyway.

However, if your opponent is not familiar with your codex, then showing them any rules that they are unfamiliar with is simply part of playing the game. The rules in play are not a secret. Try playing Monopoly with someone unfamiliar with the rules, and refuse to explain to them what happens when someone lands on a Utility. See how that works out for you.

This is no different. You're not giving up a tactical edge by letting your opponent see your codex... you're simply ensuring that you're both playing by the same rules.


This isn't about revealing what is in your army. That shouldn't be necessary anyway, since as long as you're using the correct models your opponent can see what is in your army. It's simply about making sure both players know what is going on. You can't keep your army's rules a secret any more than you can keep what Rapid Fire does a secret.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GBDarkAngel wrote:I prefer my games to be entertaining and require some thought.

Where are you getting the idea that your opponent being able to make informed decisions based on the actual rules of the game rather than just taking a guess results in the game not needing any thought?

Your refusal to tell your opponent the rules that apply to your units is going to be the option that results in less thought being involved, since your opponent is thus lacking the information they need to actually put any thought into their actions. You're one step away from just pushing toy soldiers around the board and making 'Pew! Pew!' noises.

hisdudeness wrote: I would also be fine with him asking to read my codex while it was my turn so he can plan ahead. I find it shady to effectively stop a game so he can get up to speed on my army.

Honestly? I would be a bit miffed about this, too. It's good sportsmanship to take care of that kind of thing at a time when it will not impact the game, and isn't an intrusion. DBDarkAngel's opponent was not being a particularly agreeable player, from what we've been told of the situation, and that kind of thing can certainly be kept in mind for next time. You could point it out to him, even; just saying "Next time, can you look stuff up when it won't hold up the game?" or something similar. If he persisted over several games in doing this kind of annoying thing, I might well not play him any more, or at least tell him that he needs to make sure he knows what's what BEFORE it becomes urgent.

But all that said, refusing to show someone the codex entry for a model in your army is not acceptable, unless you and your opponent have made some specific agreement before the game. If you're playing in a tournament, or in a pickup game with a stranger at the FLGS, the basic assumption is that ALL the information about your models, their statlines, points cost, and wargear, is freely available at all times. No, that isn't specifically written in the rulebook; it's simply a convention that has developed among the WH40k gaming community, for the very good reason that it makes it extremely hard to cheat successfully.

If you want to make some other agreement with your opponent beforehand, that's just fine; that's what pg. 92 is talking about. But unless you do make some other agreement, refusing to let someone see something in your codex (even if they're asking to see it at an annoying time) is at best kind of a dick move, and can easily be interpreted as evidence that you're cheating in some way and trying to cover it up. Personally, if someone I'm playing with refuses to let me confirm something in their codex, I find that extremely suspicious, and it immediately makes the mood of the game far less friendly.

GBDarkAngel wrote:@hisdudeness - In all honesty m8 there seems little point in arguing this one as the others including US GT Judge (what exactly is that? Is that someone who sits on a chair at tournaments making decisions on rules that he obviously cant understand himself?) just seem to want to take the words from the paragraphs that suit them and combine them to make whole new rules that dont exist.
.

You mention having played in tournaments but you really don't know what a judge is? Let me break it down for you. GW - Games Workshop, US - United Statates, GT - Grand Tournament, Judge - the guy that wanders around watching the games, answering rules questions and tries to prevent people from cheating. Put them all together and you have someone that has worked as a rules judge at Grand tournament events run by Games Workshop in the United States. That clear enough for you? I was one of those rare creatures called outriders back when GW had that program and then a Kommando when it replaced Outriders.So I have run (and played in) more than a few tournaments. No wonder you're having problems with the rules if you were unable to understand that simple phrase.......................

"However, before starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponent’s force roster before and during the game. Some players prefer full disclosure (which is the norm in tournaments, for example), as they want to concentrate on outmanoeuvring the enemy rather than springing a secret trump card on them."

So, did the two of you agree to not share rosters during the game? Did you agree that you would share rosters during the game? Is there a default within the gaming group, either for or against full disclosure? Even without that phrase tho, he didn't ask to see your roster, he asked to see your codex. And there's only one reason I can think of to not share the codex (which has none of the roster information on it). C'mon, all he's going to do is look up two models stat lines, and you're really this bent out of shape about it? My local club has a lot of tourney players so full disclosure is the commonly accepted practice. Personally, I'd like to hear from any others that were there to see if there's another side to this whole story. Methinks we're not hearing all of it, for some reason.

hisdudeness wrote:Yup, there is it, "force roster". Mentioned multiple times, yet I see no reference to making the codex available.

But wait, what is this I see? "To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your FORCE ROSTER AFTER the game." (BRB, p92, A NOTE ON SECRECY)

The BRB then further states, "However, BEFORE starting to deploy their armies, it is a good idea for players to agree whether or not they can read the opponent's FORCE ROSTER BEFORE AND DURING the game." (BRB, p92, A NOTE ON SECRECY)

So, if GBDarkAngel and his opponent did not agree to allow reading during the game then GBDarkAngel is doing nothing wrong and is not being TFG. Furthermore, the full disclosure statement in the BRB states "force roster” not codex. So, next time everyone starts throwing a page number around make sure the entire paragraph is read first. I am seeing no place where it says showing your codex is required.

Except that, as noted above, the opponent didn't ask to see the Force Roster, he asked to see the codex. And there is a HUGE difference.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

hisdudeness wrote: I would also be fine with him asking to read my codex while it was my turn so he can plan ahead. I find it shady to effectively stop a game so he can get up to speed on my army.

Honestly? I would be a bit miffed about this, too. It's good sportsmanship to take care of that kind of thing at a time when it will not impact the game, and isn't an intrusion. DBDarkAngel's opponent was not being a particularly agreeable player, from what we've been told of the situation, and that kind of thing can certainly be kept in mind for next time. You could point it out to him, even; just saying "Next time, can you look stuff up when it won't hold up the game?" or something similar. If he persisted over several games in doing this kind of annoying thing, I might well not play him any more, or at least tell him that he needs to make sure he knows what's what BEFORE it becomes urgent.

I can't think of anything *MORE* valid than to look up a special character's rules in a codex as those are usually the most complex rules of any given units with the most WTF rules. Those are almost the only rules I *EVER* need to see because sometimes someone drops an SC on the table that is not frequently used and the game is almost unplayable if you try to enter assault with a SC and has no idea what he does since his gear may not reflect his ability to suck your blood or turn you into a squig and cut through your armor with green boogers.

Even if the guy was supposedly rude, or slowing down the game or causing issues... he has every right to ask what a SC does and see the codex to verify it... EVEN MID GAME.

I wouldn't be agreeable either considering right before this event, DBDarkAngel was attempting harm the game by asking for tactical advice by asking an a opponent to disclose his actions before he had made them so DBDarkAngel could have an undeserved advantage. I am sure when he was told 'no' his attitude in no way soured from that point forward.

I will make sure my opponent knows every little thing my SC can do... Whenever he asks. Because it is his right and the sporting thing to do.

Ok...enough already...
We have established via the Rule Book you DO NOT have to disclose.
You can if you want and both agree but you are not required to do so and its not bad sportsmanship. Its Entertaining as specfically descrided in the Rule Book.
End of discussion.

@Don_Mondo - It's called Sarcasm m8. How can a someone claim to be a judge when he goes against what it states in the rule book in black and white.

We did not look at each other rosters as he didnt have one. he also tried to claim his Dreadnoughts were of the Venerable Variety on no less than 7 occasions after i killed one then admitted the following day that they were just normal ones.

Also No where in the Rule book does it say you need to show him your codex either....Force Roster at the end of the Game, thats all.
I suggest you make peace with that rule.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Ok...enough already...
We have established via the Rule Book you DO NOT have to disclose.

You do not have to disclose your army list until the end of the game.

You have to disclose the rules that apply to your army.

Also No where in the Rule book does it say you need to show him your codex either.....

Nor does it say that you have to show him the rulebook. Because it doesn't need to. The rules are freely available to both players, on account of both players playing the game. You can't keep rules secret from the other player without prior arrangement, or else you're not playing the same game.


You're perfectly correct in that this is not a sportsmanship issue. But why you would think that you could keep your army's special rules a secret just because the other player doesn't happen to own the same codex as you is beyond me. If you want to play the game, you have to establish that both players are playing by the same rules.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Was playing a game the other day and a couple of little things came up.

1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

2. If you have 2 models left in a unit and they both have the exact same gear etc would you still allocate wounds to them prior to saving throws? He allocated 2 on each even though they were indentical and when asked why he stated if he rolls 2 x 1 with one set only 1 model dies. My thoughts are you should roll all four saves together if the models are the same.
Your thoughts?

1.) oh come on bro, let him see it! If it's a tournament, oh hellz no, but a game between friends let him see it. I WANT folks to find a weakness in my plan and exploit it so I can fix it and can win the big games come tournament time or when I'm playing a more experienced gamer. Like one who wouldn't ask to see my codex! lol

2.) Obviously this guy hasn't played long. You're right, but roll it slower for the noobs; you'll be fine. Usually when I slow it down and am teaching or letting someone learn, something new pops in my head during the experience, and we both learn something.

GBDarkAngel wrote:Ok...enough already...
We have established via the Rule Book you DO NOT have to disclose.
You can if you want and both agree but you are not required to do so and its not bad sportsmanship. Its Entertaining as specfically descrided in the Rule Book.
End of discussion.

@Don_Mondo - It's called Sarcasm m8. How can a someone claim to be a judge when he goes against what it states in the rule book in black and white.

We did not look at each other rosters as he didnt have one. he also tried to claim his Dreadnoughts were of the Venerable Variety on no less than 7 occasions after i killed one then admitted the following day that they were just normal ones.

Also No where in the Rule book does it say you need to show him your codex either....Force Roster at the end of the Game, thats all.
I suggest you make peace with that rule.

Right. Let me be clearer, then.

If I were playing a game against you, asked to see the rules for one of your characters, and you refused, the game would end. Immediately. I agree that your opponent was certainly being unpleasant and quite possibly cheating, and I understand that doesn't make you want to help him out; but that's really irrelevant.

In 40k as in all tabletop games, ALL information about both player's armies is available upon request. There are certainly allowances made if you and your opponent wish to play a slightly more 'secretive' game by not showing your specific army lists until the game is over; but if I know that you have, for instance, Njal the Stormcaller, ask you to let me see the rules for Njal the Stormcaller (assuming that, like most people, I have not dedicated the time to memorize the special rules for each and every special character), and you refuse, I will pack up and leave. If you are playing in a tournament and refuse to allow your opponent to check the rules for one of your models, you will certainly be slapped down by the TO and receive an extremely poor sportsmanship score. If you persist in doing so, you may well be ejected.

If you're playing a tabletop game, both players having free and equal access to ALL the rules is a fundamental requirement. There doesn't NEED to be a rule in the BGB for that, it's a basic assumption that's essential to, you know, PLAYING A GAME. And for that matter, it's no different in Fantasy. If you've been playing Fantasy with the idea that you don't need to let your opponent see your army book to confirm your rules, you have been playing it WRONG.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:Ok...enough already...
We have established via the Rule Book you DO NOT have to disclose.
You can if you want and both agree but you are not required to do so and its not bad sportsmanship. Its Entertaining as specfically descrided in the Rule Book.
End of discussion.

@Don_Mondo - It's called Sarcasm m8. How can a someone claim to be a judge when he goes against what it states in the rule book in black and white.

We did not look at each other rosters as he didnt have one. he also tried to claim his Dreadnoughts were of the Venerable Variety on no less than 7 occasions after i killed one then admitted the following day that they were just normal ones.

Also No where in the Rule book does it say you need to show him your codex either....Force Roster at the end of the Game, thats all.
I suggest you make peace with that rule.

Right. Let me be clearer, then.

If I were playing a game against you, asked to see the rules for one of your characters, and you refused, the game would end. Immediately. I agree that your opponent was certainly being unpleasant and quite possibly cheating, and I understand that doesn't make you want to help him out; but that's really irrelevant.

In 40k as in all tabletop games, ALL information about both player's armies is available upon request. There are certainly allowances made if you and your opponent wish to play a slightly more 'secretive' game by not showing your specific army lists until the game is over; but if I know that you have, for instance, Njal the Stormcaller, ask you to let me see the rules for Njal the Stormcaller (assuming that, like most people, I have not dedicated the time to memorize the special rules for each and every special character), and you refuse, I will pack up and leave. If you are playing in a tournament and refuse to allow your opponent to check the rules for one of your models, you will certainly be slapped down by the TO and receive an extremely poor sportsmanship score. If you persist in doing so, you may well be ejected.

If you're playing a tabletop game, both players having free and equal access to ALL the rules is a fundamental requirement. There doesn't NEED to be a rule in the BGB for that, it's a basic assumption that's essential to, you know, PLAYING A GAME. And for that matter, it's no different in Fantasy. If you've been playing Fantasy with the idea that you don't need to let your opponent see your army book to confirm your rules, you have been playing it WRONG.

In Bold- AGREED. If you didn't allow me to see your codex, I'd simply make you prove to me every special rule your in your army before you use it. I don't care if it's combat tactics and you're playing with ultramarines second company. See, how someone can turn the tables and be just as big a butt hole back if you don't play everything undisclosed?

Now, if this guy just wants to peruse your codex for a weakness, you need to make sure he understands that you'll let him, so he can learn the game better, but next time he'll need to plan tactics better. Or words to that effect.

Now, if this guy just wants to peruse your codex for a weakness,

That is a very subjective line. Would you call a model's statline a 'weakness'? If I asked to see what WS your model had, and it was lower than one of my model's and therefore weaker, would you refuse to tell me? What if I asked to see what the toughness of a model was so I could roll to wound you, and it was lower than the strength of my weapon and therefore weaker, would you also refuse to tell me that, too?

A model's statline is something that both players must have access to in order to keep the game running. If I want to attack your unit, I have to know what their Toughness is, and to do that I need to consult your codex or quick reference sheet, you also need to know what the Strength of my weapon or model is, and again we consult the codex. If neither player is allowed access to another's codex for reference purposes, then the game breaks down, since nobody knows what they need to hit in CC, what they need in order to wound, whether or not they successfully killed a model by removing its final wound, even what their Leadership is for testing.

At one point or another, you will have to let your opponent know your model's statline, and he will need to tell you his, otherwise we end up with a game that nobody can play because one or both players were being dicks.

If you really think that not allowing your opponent, however antagonistic, to look at your codex or any other rule of the game is at all allowable, you are in the minority.

If you don't believe me, put up a poll on this site and see just how many people disagree with you. In fact, I bet if you put that poll anywhere, on any 40k site with significant traffic, you'd get the same result.

Just because your opponent is frustrating doesn't mean that you should be frustrating in return. The golden rule isn't do unto others as they have done to you, it's do to others as you would have done to you.

I still don't understand how anyone thinks the game can be played without everyone having access to the rulebook and any and all codexes being used in the game.

Refusing to share your codex is cheating.

Let me clarify…I do not have a problem with someone asking to verify a rule or stat or to even read the entire entry /codex. What I have a problem with is when it is asked in the middle of the game. He was asking “to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack” not to verify a rule. That is a huge difference. One is being fair and proving your army list with special rules is legal. The other is the guy wanting to read your codex in the middle of his turn because he didn’t pay attention to your army introduction. If it is that big a deal to him, flip through the codex while DBDarlAngel is playing his turn.

I have no problem with someone flipping through my codex or army list and even asking questions when it is not there turn. It is the ‘let’s stop game play so I can research your weakness’ shadiness that I have an issue with. What if that happens during a tournament and the player uses it as a way to waste time to end the game at a time that benefits him? According to most people here it is in the rules that he has the right to stop the game and read your codex. SO there is something lost in the exchange, time in a timed match.

I completely agree, insaniak that you should allow your opponent to ask questions and flip through your codex if he is not familiar with it, I even stated that much. But this happens before the game during the army/table discussion as BeRzErKeR stated. Nowhere does it say in the rules that you MUST show your opponent anything. It does state (as quoted) that it is suggested that you discuss it with your opponent in the spirit of fairness.

My problem is people trying to claim it is cheating and you being a dick if you don’t (a la nkelsch in post). Even the force roster disclosure is optional, although I believe it is just good business to introduce your army to your opponent.

I just deep struck Zandrekh and Obryon with a unit of deathmarks next to your HQ unit. My unit doesn't scatter when it deep strikes as part of its special rule, has 2 templates that wound your HQ unit on a 2+ and are ap1, and several rending weapons. It (meaning the deep striking wherever I want without having to roll for scatter) takes you totally off-guard.

You assault them after checking my codex and verifying that I was right with the TO. You ask me for my codex because you remember one of the two chracters is really good in assault, but you can't remember which, because the last time you looked you were more focused on the whole "deep strike without scatter" thing.

I tell you that you didn't pay close enough attention, so you can't look.

The above strikes you as fair? Sorry, but for me, the last line is a deal-breaker.

What happens when a player intentionally wastes time in a tournament? You call the TO over and show them, or have a TO come over and watch to make sure it doesn't continue. If he does it once or twice, that's not so bad, but over and over is more of an issue and he can be penalized for that.

IT IS you being a dick if you don't, and while isn't strictly cheating, makes you much, much more likely to be the source of the TO's and other players' ire.