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Was playing a game the other day and a couple of little things came up.

1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

2. If you have 2 models left in a unit and they both have the exact same gear etc would you still allocate wounds to them prior to saving throws? He allocated 2 on each even though they were indentical and when asked why he stated if he rolls 2 x 1 with one set only 1 model dies. My thoughts are you should roll all four saves together if the models are the same.
Your thoughts?

Normally one only asks to see the codex to verify a special rule. If my opponent wanted to see my codex to determine which guy to attack, I say too bad.
After wound allocation, you roll like models together. For every failed save (if allowed to take saves) the wound group loses one wound. If your opponent suffered two wounds, he loses both models.

1. There's no rule about this; however, it's somewhat impolite to refuse to let your opponent see your codex. In fact, if there's a rules dispute, you'll need to show them the codex. It's also a bit unreasonable to expect someone to buy ALL the codexes, just on the off-chance that they'll play that army at some point. That said, there's no rule, so if you don't mind seeming abrasive, feel free.

2. He was wrong. If the unit is comprised of identical models, you can't allocate wounds. If ANYTHING is different, however, then you can use the WAC rules; statlines, weapons, even if one model has grenades and the other doesn't.

Happyjew wrote:Normally one only asks to see the codex to verify a special rule. If my opponent wanted to see my codex to determine which guy to attack, I say too bad.
After wound allocation, you roll like models together. For every failed save (if allowed to take saves) the wound group loses one wound. If your opponent suffered two wounds, he loses both models.

So even though he allocated 2 wounds on each had he failed to save with 2 out the four saves they would both have died reguardless?

If the models were identical, then yes, both should have died.

GBDarkAngel wrote:
1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

I would consider it cheating, yes....also would consider it being very unsportsmanlike. Show the damn codex when someone asks for it. Nothing is lost in the exchange.

2. If you have 2 models left in a unit and they both have the exact same gear etc would you still allocate wounds to them prior to saving throws? He allocated 2 on each even though they were indentical and when asked why he stated if he rolls 2 x 1 with one set only 1 model dies. My thoughts are you should roll all four saves together if the models are the same.
Your thoughts?

Identically equipped models are rolled for as a group. Two wounds would be allocated to each model, but all 4 saves would be rolled for the group. So two or more unsaved wounds would wipe out all of them.

It wasnt a rules dispute etc, he just wanted to see which one he thought would be easier to kill.

Doesn't matter, it's still a dick move. Obscurity is not a tactic.

GBDarkAngel wrote:It wasnt a rules dispute etc, he just wanted to see which one he thought would be easier to kill.

Full Disclosure is the norm for tournaments, and the most fair way to play.

If you exchanged lists he would have this information anyway.

If you did not exchange lists, he could just go to where they keep the codexes in the store and look it up. (If you were playing in a store)

IMHO it is bad form to not share lists/codexes, as I prefer to concentrate on the game, as opposed to springing a trump card on my opponent.

more info on Page 92 under "A note on secrecy."

Being able to make intelligent decisions in a wargame like 40k depends on accurate information. There are wargames which depend on obscurity; in Stratego, for instance, the only way to tell how powerful one of your opponent's pieces is, is to attack it. But 40k is not one of those games, and the conventions of the game are that you must give your opponent all relevant information about your army. You have to let them see your army list, you have to model the wargear you're using. . . and, yes, you have to let them see what the statistics of your models are.

GBDarkAngel wrote:1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

It isn't outright cheating, but it's very close to being TFG or being seen as a WAAC gamer. Would you reject his wishes to check a unit's rule in your codex too? If I think you've got a rule wrong, or I want to know what a rule does, then not letting me know could come very close to outright cheating, and not letting someone view a model's profile is also really pushing the envelope.

For all he knew your model was actually weaker than you said he was during the game, and you weren't letting him look because not only would he know which one was the weakest, but would also find out you've been lying about his statline from the start. I'm not saying you did, but when you make a move like that it looks very suspicious.

What would you do if he asked what he needed to wound your models? Tell him to buy the codex and find out for himself? Do you make all your rolls in secret to avoid him working out your models statlines from your To Hit/Wound rolls and Ld tests? What about vehicle armour, if he asks what AV your vehicle is do you tell him to guess and only tell him if he managed to hurt it or not after the roll?

What you did was a very unsporstmanlike move, and I advise you to honestly think twice before trying to pull it again, or you could quickly find yourself without anybody to play with.

What you don't have to do is give your opponent advice on which IC it would be better to attack. ;-)

And ofc, polite opponents will ask to look at your codex before the battle - and possibly page through it while you're moving. Asking for it when it's their turn holds up the game which is a bit rude.

Avatar 720 wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

It isn't outright cheating, but it's very close to being TFG or being seen as a WAAC gamer. Would you reject his wishes to check a unit's rule in your codex too? If I think you've got a rule wrong, or I want to know what a rule does, then not letting me know could come very close to outright cheating, and not letting someone view a model's profile is also really pushing the envelope.

For all he knew your model was actually weaker than you said he was during the game, and you weren't letting him look because not only would he know which one was the weakest, but would also find out you've been lying about his statline from the start. I'm not saying you did, but when you make a move like that it looks very suspicious.

What would you do if he asked what he needed to wound your models? Tell him to buy the codex and find out for himself? Do you make all your rolls in secret to avoid him working out your models statlines from your To Hit/Wound rolls and Ld tests? What about vehicle armour, if he asks what AV your vehicle is do you tell him to guess and only tell him if he managed to hurt it or not after the roll?

What you did was a very unsporstmanlike move, and I advise you to honestly think twice before trying to pull it again, or you could quickly find yourself without anybody to play with.

Holy hell, you are the most paranoid person ever in the history of person and ever.
There was No Rules Debate, No Statline Debate, No telling lies about Stats (lol. I honestly cant believe you wrote that) he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill. Just to clarify though he is the WAAC gamer of the club, i on the other hand have only ever won 1 game of 40k in about 12 attempts.
On a personal note i would never dream of asking someone to see their codex to acertain which one was easiest to kill, I play Fantasy 90% of the time and thats like asking your opponent to reveal all his magic items etc and that is a no no.

I can understand not wanting to hand your codex to another player you don't know/trust. In this case simply explain to him what the models in question had and what was special about them.

If all models in the unit are the same, you don't place wounds, you simply roll saves and then remove models.

Would you have also refused to answer if I pointed at one model and asked what's it's WS, save and wounds are? And then asked the same for the other? Basically, I'd be asking which is easier to kill, right?

So yeah, it was a dick move and for all he knows you are cheating since you seem to be trying to hide your models stats.

GBDarkAngel wrote: he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill.

On a personal note i would never dream of asking someone to see their codex to ascertain which one was easiest to kill.

Knowing what their stats are is not an issue. he could have simply looked at the book on the shelf for this information. Looking at your book is just easier and makes you a friendly player, hiding your book does the opposite.

Full Disclosure makes for a better game IMO, that way all participants know what is going on, and no one can play the "transport shell game"

GBDarkAngel wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:1. Opponent asked to see my Codex so he could decide what Special Character to Attack. I told him no as he would need to make that choice and possibly attack the least dangerous one. He claimed if i didnt show him then it was outright cheating.
My thought on this is; if you want to know buy the codex.

It isn't outright cheating, but it's very close to being TFG or being seen as a WAAC gamer. Would you reject his wishes to check a unit's rule in your codex too? If I think you've got a rule wrong, or I want to know what a rule does, then not letting me know could come very close to outright cheating, and not letting someone view a model's profile is also really pushing the envelope.

For all he knew your model was actually weaker than you said he was during the game, and you weren't letting him look because not only would he know which one was the weakest, but would also find out you've been lying about his statline from the start. I'm not saying you did, but when you make a move like that it looks very suspicious.

What would you do if he asked what he needed to wound your models? Tell him to buy the codex and find out for himself? Do you make all your rolls in secret to avoid him working out your models statlines from your To Hit/Wound rolls and Ld tests? What about vehicle armour, if he asks what AV your vehicle is do you tell him to guess and only tell him if he managed to hurt it or not after the roll?

What you did was a very unsporstmanlike move, and I advise you to honestly think twice before trying to pull it again, or you could quickly find yourself without anybody to play with.

Holy hell, you are the most paranoid person ever in the history of person and ever.
There was No Rules Debate, No Statline Debate, No telling lies about Stats (lol. I honestly cant believe you wrote that) he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill. Just to clarify though he is the WAAC gamer of the club, i on the other hand have only ever won 1 game of 40k in about 12 attempts.
On a personal note i would never dream of asking someone to see their codex to acertain which one was easiest to kill, I play Fantasy 90% of the time and thats like asking your opponent to reveal all his magic items etc and that is a no no.

It would also be awesome if you could read what people write.

I never said there WAS a rules debate, or a statline debate, or telling lies about stats (hell, I even said outright that I didn't say you were lying about stats, i've put it in bold so you can't miss it), I gave example situations and asked you if you would do the same in them. Perhaps you could re-read my post and cut the 'paranoid' crap out yours, it doesn't help your case.

As for him being WAAC, that's wholly irrelevant, saying your opponent is a WAAC gamer does not absolve you of blame, nor does a bad W/D/L scoresheet. You didn't have any beef with your opponent except for his asking to view your codex - a perfectly acceptable request - and his illegal use of wound allocation - something which, even in this late stage of 5th edition, people can easily get wrong. I honestly don't care what your opponent has done previously, you are not blameless or justified in your actions because of it.

I also don't care what you would or would not dream of doing. The point is that you denied him a perfectly reasonable request on the grounds that you didn't want him to win, and that makes you an unsporting gamer, and borderline WAAC yourself, your own ethics don't come into it, since your personal ethics are not the rules. Similarly, Fantasy is not 40k; just because asking people what their magic items are is illegal in Fantasy, does not mean asking people what a model's wargear is is illegal in 40k, in fact, it's the exact opposite, if an opponent asks what your model is holding, you must tell them.

GBDarkAngel wrote:There was No Rules Debate, No Statline Debate, No telling lies about Stats (lol. I honestly cant believe you wrote that) he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill.

So... what exactly leads you to believe that model stats should be a secret?

If it was me I would have looked at you funny and packed my stuff up. Asking the question was goffy but understandable but telling him to buy the codex if he wanted to see the model stats,rules whatever was a bad showing and not for pickup or friendly games. If it was a tourneynthen he would have all that info in the first place. If you still want to have the ability to play random games I would suggest not acting like this.

insaniak wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:There was No Rules Debate, No Statline Debate, No telling lies about Stats (lol. I honestly cant believe you wrote that) he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill.

So... what exactly leads you to believe that model stats should be a secret?

I never said they should be.
I simply felt it was an odd request as the turn before when i asked which of his units was assaulting which of my units so i could use my Psychic Power (i thought i had to target one unit but it was all units in 12 inches so it made no odds) he refused to tell me stating "Thats the risk you take"; however as i pointed out to him that if i cast it on Unit A he just wouldnt delcare an assault on that unit to which he agreed that was indeed the case.

The next turn he asked to see the stats and rules for each of the IC's and i in a joking fashion said "no thats the risk you take" however he then proceeded to my side of the table and getting quite irrate and stating that i had to show him and if i didnt it was downright cheating.

Like i said in Fantasy that behaviour is likely to get you escorted off the premises.

Seems that 40k is really an adolescent teen game.
Also i am not entirely sure why some are flaming me for this as this section is the clarification section....Ie...I dont know so please advise.
I guess its the adolescent teen thing again.

GBDarkAngel wrote:I simply felt it was an odd request as the turn before when i asked which of his units was assaulting which of my units so i could use my Psychic Power (i thought i had to target one unit but it was all units in 12 inches so it made no odds) he refused to tell me stating "Thats the risk you take"; however as i pointed out to him that if i cast it on Unit A he just wouldnt delcare an assault on that unit to which he agreed that was indeed the case.

How is that situation remotely similar?

If you have to use the psychic power before anything else happens for the turn, then yes, you have to take a guess at what your opponent is going to do, just as when you move your units to get closer for assault, you have to guess where your opponent is going to move when it is time for him to do so. That's not remotely the same as your opponent asking for basic rules that should be open to both players.

If your opponent wanted to look at the rulebook to check what, say, Move Through Cover does, would that be out of line? No? Then why should asking to see the stats of your models be any different?

For that matter, what happens when you come across a player who is familiar with your codex? Should they have to have a frontal lobotomy before they play you?


There is no secrecy in the rules of 40K. Your tactics are your own, but what is actually happening on the table has to be clear for both players. Both players are entitled to see the full rules being used in the game.

Also i am not entirely sure why some are flaming me for this as this section is the clarification section....Ie...I dont know so please advise.
I guess its the adolescent teen thing again.

I'm not sure what you're seeing as flaming... You presented a situation for discussion, and people are pointing out what they think of it. The closest the thread has come to rudeness so far is your dig just there about the 'adolescent teen thing'...

GBDarkAngel wrote:

insaniak wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:There was No Rules Debate, No Statline Debate, No telling lies about Stats (lol. I honestly cant believe you wrote that) he simply wanted to scrutinise the Codex entry for both to see what would be the easiest one to kill.

So... what exactly leads you to believe that model stats should be a secret?

I never said they should be.
I simply felt it was an odd request as the turn before when i asked which of his units was assaulting which of my units so i could use my Psychic Power (i thought i had to target one unit but it was all units in 12 inches so it made no odds) he refused to tell me stating "Thats the risk you take"; however as i pointed out to him that if i cast it on Unit A he just wouldnt delcare an assault on that unit to which he agreed that was indeed the case.

The next turn he asked to see the stats and rules for each of the IC's and i in a joking fashion said "no thats the risk you take" however he then proceeded to my side of the table and getting quite irrate and stating that i had to show him and if i didnt it was downright cheating.

Not the same... Your situation you were asking for disclosure of tactics which he should not provide. He has every right to not assault in the assault phase in reaction to you using a psychic power which comes before his assault. Working as intended.

He was asking for disclosure of rules so he could make a decision with information he has the right to have. You have no right to hide that information unless that non-standard format of the game was chosen and agreed to by both players pre-game. Refusing to share your codex or armyt list makes you a bad sport. Telling him to look it up on the shelf is rude to the store owner as it damages product others may want to buy. You basically cheated and were a bad player. The fault is on you.

I would have stopped the game and packed my models up. Next time provide an armylist with all your stats and rules so he can choose a 'threat' order as he is allowed to do so. If you can't be bothered to provide that, let him see your codex whenever he wishes... Or play a different game.

@nkelsch - You just completely contradicted yourself.

First you state he did not have to provide a disclosure of tactics then you state to provide an armylist so he can choose a threat order, which is disclosing tactics.

Make up your mind. Its either one or the other.

Its not hard to figure out a threat order.

I dont play 40k much and in all honesty i cant see me playing it much in the future either. However i will read through the rulebook and read the part it says both parties have to disclose everything therefore taking all tactical guess work out of the game.
i must confess though i prefer to assault a unit only to find out its the death star unit from hell. Kinda fun dont you think.

Im curious about something else.
When you guys attend 40k tourneys do you all hand your opponent a list?

Where exactly is the skill in 40k?

GBDarkAngel wrote:
I dont play 40k much and in all honesty i cant see me playing it much in the future either. However i will read through the rulebook and read the part it says both parties have to disclose everything therefore taking all tactical guess work out of the game.
i must confess though i prefer to assault a unit only to find out its the death star unit from hell. Kinda fun dont you think.

Im curious about something else.
When you guys attend 40k tourneys do you all hand your opponent a list?

Where exactly is the skill in 40k?

Generally speaking, if an opponent asks to see the profile for a unit, you need to provide them with the unit profile. If you want to play the game where you need to randomly guess which unit to attack, I am not sure how that is strategy. It seems closer to just flipping a coin to see who to attack. I think a far more interesting tactical decision would be to assess the risks/benefits of entering an easily won combat versus taking down a key unit that is very 'ard.

Tournaments almost invariably require you to provide a copy of your army list to your opponent. They also almost invariably require you to have your codex with you to answer any opponent questions.

The skill in 40k is in estimating distances, assessing probability of success, initiating multi-assaults and understanding how your specific army can achieve the mission objectives based on your opponent.

calypso2ts wrote:

GBDarkAngel wrote:
I dont play 40k much and in all honesty i cant see me playing it much in the future either. However i will read through the rulebook and read the part it says both parties have to disclose everything therefore taking all tactical guess work out of the game.
i must confess though i prefer to assault a unit only to find out its the death star unit from hell. Kinda fun dont you think.

Im curious about something else.
When you guys attend 40k tourneys do you all hand your opponent a list?

Where exactly is the skill in 40k?

Generally speaking, if an opponent asks to see the profile for a unit, you need to provide them with the unit profile. If you want to play the game where you need to randomly guess which unit to attack, I am not sure how that is strategy. It seems closer to just flipping a coin to see who to attack. I think a far more interesting tactical decision would be to assess the risks/benefits of entering an easily won combat versus taking down a key unit that is very 'ard.

Tournaments almost invariably require you to provide a copy of your army list to your opponent. They also almost invariably require you to have your codex with you to answer any opponent questions.

The skill in 40k is in estimating distances, assessing probability of success, initiating multi-assaults and understanding how your specific army can achieve the mission objectives based on your opponent.

Interesting.
Dont get me wrong. I love the "No Measuring" before declaring rule. I hate that fantasy allows measuring then chossing another target if its short.
Also to clarify i do state my units and what they are equipped with prior to starting.
I just found the request to see the codex so he could decide which IC was easiest to kill was a little bizarre, although on the other side of the coin if he kills the weak one then the strong one is still alive.

It really isnt bizarre, at all.

In fantasy it is the exact equivalent of wanting to know the base stats of a model, and any mundane equipment - the non secret stuff. You can ask for this at ANY time in fantasy and, before you state differently having just run a large one day fantasy tournament you would be WRONG to state you would be shown the door.

Refusing to answer a straightforward question such as this is indeed akin to cheating

FInally - nkesch did not contradict himself.

Asking which unit the opponent is going to assault is not asking to be shown information which much be shared. As such your opponent is under no compunction to answer
Asking to see the COMMON information that is available to BOTH players at ALL times is very, very different.

i gota question!

what is the "stomp" heavy rule, and where do i find it? what rule book, i can't seem to find it even though i've looked in the core rules, forge worlds rules, and the apocalpyse rules =/

Stomp (afaik) is a special attack that super heavy walkers and gargantuan creatures get. You would need to check the Apocalypse rule book.

I'm a new player, and if during a tournament someone refused to let me see their codex, I would ask if they minded if I borrowed a codex from a neighbor (or the store) and we delayed the game for 10 minutes while I looked it up.

Regardless of their response, I would give them a low sportsmanship score at the end of the game on our scorecard.

I would happily let anyone borrow my codex, or do my best to explain any unit, if they asked me to.

Happyjew wrote:Stomp (afaik) is a special attack that super heavy walkers and gargantuan creatures get. You would need to check the Apocalypse rule book.

tried, that...can't find it =/