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hotsauceman1 wrote:Feel free to prove me wrong. But arent stoem troopers trained in the same school(whatever its called) as SOB. So wouldnt females at that school go straight to the SOB caniidates?

No. In at least one sense, the Sisters' recruitment standards are more stringent than those of the Stormtroopers - the requirement for True Faith. This means that you could have a skilled female candidate who would make a good Stormtrooper, but a poor Battle Sister.

Well, I would probably argue that, unlike a genetical predisposition for above-average physiology, faith can indeed be reliably "bred" via years of indoctrination starting at the earliest age. It's not something you're born with - a baby orphan is like a blank slate to be filled ... in this case with Ecclesiarchy-approved doctrines and zeal.

And that's not even touching upon issues of realism, for whereas women have a tendency to be better marksmen, they are obviously at a disadvantage when it comes to physical strength, which may be important in close combat or for carrying their gear. And Storm Troopers strike me as being far more about close assault than sniping, at least that was my interpretation from the (admittedly limited amount of) material I've read about them.

Of course, I'm merely trying to make sense of GW specifically writing in the Guard Codex that Storm Troopers are male only, but with the explanation I am suggesting it becomes easy to believe, I think.

@SpankHammer III: Thanks for the additional info, lots of conflicting input regarding the contents of that book now. Seems we can at least all agree it's a bit strange, though.

For my sins I have read it twice, first time because I love the guard and thought a book about storm troopers would be good. Second because I have a lot of long trips on the bus and was not allowed (with xmas looming) to buy any new books so re read alot of the independent guard novels.

It's not a good source, for some reason they all carry autopistols rather than hell/hot shot las pistols, there is a Commissar attached to the squad, storm troopers being the last squad that would need a commissar. it flys in the face of a lot of other sources, the most approriate to this discussion is that one of the troopers is a woman. In respects of the OP all the fluff I have seen, with the exception of Redemption corps, storm troopers are an all male, however the woman in redemption corps might not be classed as a true stormie anyway. She was a mordian line trooper that Major Mortenson (the feel no pain hero) rescues/recruits after a last stand type situation. so she has never been through the scholar and thus is not a true stormie.

it mildly entertaining in places and there is a fun sniple rifle in it that uses AC rounds

You probably get female specialists, count as stormies like a previous poster mentioned, but not actual storm troopers. Hell with the 40K being so inconsistent and being such a big galaxy there probably are female stormies.

Of course things in 40K like Clan Escher would throw out the men being physically stronger line.

Maybe there are not many, but I could see the potential for some female Stormtroopers. At the very least, full platoons of their equivilents around the Imperium.

Kanluwen wrote:The Order is relatively isolated and not given to doing much of the "standard" Sisters of Battle stuff

Yeah. Basically they weren't actually sisters, they were just some dumbass writer's attempt to include sisters without actually bothering to do any reading on Sisters or have any part of their character expressed accurately, all so that they can have a generic, overdone, and predictable plot element thrown in.

Melissia wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:There's that Colonel-Commander (or it might've been general-commisar, can't remember) from the Gaunt's Ghost novels. Only female Commi that comes to mind, tbh.

Also a female commissar-cadet in Cain's Last Stand.

Oh, yeah, I remember her.

And Redemption Corps is a hilariously over the top novel. Bad in some parts, but awesome in others...


Edit: Spelling, thanks rob-or-ross.

That's rappel. Sounds cool though.

Sturmtruppen wrote:The birth rate on Cadia is exactly the same as the Guard's recruitment figures. So unless Cadia gets its girls shipped from off-world, there will be female Kasrkin.

Funnily enough, here in the UK, women still aren't allowed to serve in front-line infantry regiments. Which means you'll see no women in the special forces, Paras, Royal Marines, etc.

Women can join the SRR by the way, they are a front line operational special forces unit.

The fact that there are female Commissar models indicates to me that not all women from the Schola Progenium are able to make the cut as Sisters of Battle. Since the SOB, the Commissariat and the Stormtrooper Regiment all draw their members from the same pool, there's obviously going to be some cross-over.

The Commissariat doesn't get the best of the best, though - it's an entirely different cut of the progena, comparable to Navy NCOs and maybe the Non-Militant Sororitas Orders and Ecclesiarchy clergy. They are basically the "middle section" of the Schola Progenum, those who have managed to excel beyond the expectations placed upon the common orphan who will eventually end up as a loyal scribe in the employ of the Administratum.

Only the best of the best, however, become Storm Troopers (if male) or Battle Sisters (if female).
In rare cases even Inquisitors (both genders), but I imagine this requires an active Inquisitor taking an interest in a promising progena to recruit him/her. Could be his/her own child, or that of a colleague, for example.

Though this is only insofar GW sources are concerned - as mentioned earlier, there are some novels who follow a different interpretation.

Lynata wrote:The Commissariat doesn't get the best of the best, though

Oh they do get great candidates, but what makes a person a good commissar is different than what makes a person a good stormtrooper or sister.

A commissar must excel at manipulating soldiers in to doing what the Imperial Guard needs them to do. This is quite different from a stormtrooper's duties.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:The Commissariat doesn't get the best of the best, though

Oh they do get great candidates, but what makes a person a good commissar is different than what makes a person a good stormtrooper or sister.

A commissar must excel at manipulating soldiers in to doing what the Imperial Guard needs them to do. This is quite different from a stormtrooper's duties.

Not to mention they NEED girls for the Sisters so they are more likely to try and nudge them over to the sisters than the Commissariat.

Stormtroopers at the point I think can go both ways, since it's hard to tell in that bulky black armor if they person wearing is female or not.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:The Commissariat doesn't get the best of the best, though

Oh they do get great candidates, but what makes a person a good commissar is different than what makes a person a good stormtrooper or sister.

A commissar must excel at manipulating soldiers in to doing what the Imperial Guard needs them to do. This is quite different from a stormtrooper's duties.

In short: Commissar must be able to execute Guardsman without any remorse or gilt. And also be suicidal brave to show his men how to do their job.

He also must know when NOT to execute as well, otherwise he won't live long. Sometimes flogging or kitchen duty or manual labor duty is a better punishment, it can make the commissar seem like he's being fair compared to the alternative (death). This gives the soldiers far more reason to trust and obey the commissar.

Of course, saying that, there are still times where execution is definitely necessary.

Indeed, I guess the Commissar's most important ability is to be an example for anyone nearby - aside from unflinching loyalty as well as the ruthlessness to dispense the Emperor's judgment when one of his men is found wanting.

Battle Sisters will sometimes assume a somewhat similar position if they live long enough to become a Superior or even a Canoness, but a Commissar has to fulfill these expectations from day 1. Conversely, a Commissar wouldn't be expected to fight as well as a Sister Militant or pray as much. A Commissar, though faithful and religious himself, will probably spend more time studying tactical assessments than some dusty tome containing ancient proverbs.

Indeed. Though the commissar will know enough to ensure that the soldiers he disciplines are following proper Imperial Creed practices, he'll need to know a lot more law, for example, than Sisters would as he'd deal with civilians more (Which is still not much).

Stormtroopers are part of the Imperial Guard - think of them as the SAS/Green Berets/SEALs/Saryat Maktal/etc. of the IG.

They are recruited from the Schola Progenitum which is where the orphans of Imperial officers and officials are raised.

There are female guardsmen, commissars and inquisitors so it seems likely that there would be women stormtroopers - after all, we've seen some pretty badass chicks in the 40k fluff.

madprophet wrote:There are female guardsmen, commissars and inquisitors so it seems likely that there would be women stormtroopers - after all, we've seen some pretty badass chicks in the 40k fluff.

Careful - there are gender-exclusive forces in the Imperium. There are no male Sisters of Battle, and there are no female Space Marines. Neither are there female Storm Troopers, at least if you go by the stuff written by GW, for as quoted before it is directly ruled out in the Codex. However, as slavish adherence to GW fluff isn't a necessity (a lot of authors even from licensed publications certainly don't stick to it), one would still be free to deviate from it and do female ST's if he so wants. It all depends on how closely you want to stick to studio material, or if you prefer an alternate interpretation of the setting, such as sometimes presented in a BL novel or even one you've come up with yourself.

There's a female stormtrooper in "Helsreach". ADB usually has pretty good background-anchoring in his books as well.

Lynata wrote:

madprophet wrote:There are female guardsmen, commissars and inquisitors so it seems likely that there would be women stormtroopers - after all, we've seen some pretty badass chicks in the 40k fluff.

Careful - there are gender-exclusive forces in the Imperium. There are no male Sisters of Battle, and there are no female Space Marines. Neither are there female Storm Troopers, at least if you go by the stuff written by GW, for as quoted before it is directly ruled out in the Codex. However, as slavish adherence to GW fluff isn't a necessity (a lot of authors even from licensed publications certainly don't stick to it), one would still be free to deviate from it and do female ST's if he so wants. It all depends on how closely you want to stick to studio material, or if you prefer an alternate interpretation of the setting, such as sometimes presented in a BL novel or even one you've come up with yourself.

Orphans aren't the only source of recruits for Stormtroopers. There's been mention(of course, in Black Library novels--you know THE BRANCH DEVOTED TO EXPANDING THE BACKGROUND) of recruitment from veterans of regiments which have been annihilated in combat.

Though one should keep in mind that, as FFG's fluff points out, those are generally seen and treated as inferiors and outsiders by those whom are from the schola.

Well as you probably know there are many female soldiers in imperial guard. As for female storm troopers read the book helsreach in which two of the soldiers (the seargent and one of the troopers) are female. When you think about it about half of all storm troopers are female ( as storm troopers are the sons and daughters of high ranking imperial commanders).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's a female stormtrooper in "Helsreach". ADB usually has pretty good background-anchoring in his books as well.

ADB also wrote on his blog that he doesn't care what some Codex says when he thinks he has a better idea.

Of course, I can do nothing more than continue to hint at GW being pretty pretty clear on the subject, what with specifically pointing out that all members of the Storm Trooper regiment are male orphans in the Guard Codices.

It's not some law people have to stick to - gamers have the same rights as any BL author. But it should be recognized that there are quite simply different interpretations of the fluff, so an all-encompassing "yes there are female STs" simply creates a false impression.

Kanluwen wrote:Orphans aren't the only source of recruits for Stormtroopers. There's been mention(of course, in Black Library novels [...]

Oh, I have no doubt that there are a lot of BL authors whose interpretation of the setting differs from the studio.

Oh, I have no doubt that much of what's published by the studio hasn't been updated in years.

Or directly contradicts their own fluff because of a typo.

*glares at the 5th edition rulebook*

Or is bad. Draigo, navigators with time altering superpowers.

*glares at Robin Cruddace and hotshot lasguns*

Kanluwen wrote:*glares at Robin Cruddace and hotshot lasguns*

That too.

Kanluwen wrote:Oh, I have no doubt that much of what's published by the studio hasn't been updated in years.

Why update what doesn't need an update? I like consistency in "my" settings. In fact, ongoing changes to details concerning background worlds I like is something that really ticks me off.

HAN SHOT FIRST

Agreed about the hotshot lasguns, tho.

Lynata wrote:

madprophet wrote:There are female guardsmen, commissars and inquisitors so it seems likely that there would be women stormtroopers - after all, we've seen some pretty badass chicks in the 40k fluff.

Careful - there are gender-exclusive forces in the Imperium. There are no male Sisters of Battle, and there are no female Space Marines. Neither are there female Storm Troopers, at least if you go by the stuff written by GW, for as quoted before it is directly ruled out in the Codex. However, as slavish adherence to GW fluff isn't a necessity (a lot of authors even from licensed publications certainly don't stick to it), one would still be free to deviate from it and do female ST's if he so wants. It all depends on how closely you want to stick to studio material, or if you prefer an alternate interpretation of the setting, such as sometimes presented in a BL novel or even one you've come up with yourself.

Isnt the reason there is no male SOB is because they are a loophole? Didnt it say the inquisition can keep no "Men At Arms"
And ISnt te reason there are no male Space marines is because the geneseed can only be adpated to males because that is what the primarchs are?

Aye, I've pretty much written everything produced by the Studio since 3rd Ed off to be honest (though a lot of the FFG stuff is interesting): That's my 40k.

But I do try to keep track of the changes [will never tick the ignorance is bliss box], so just so I know....

Melissia: You're referring to the 3 (rather than 6) Major Orders Militant, right?

And I've not come across the Hotshot Lasgun problem before (they were always Hellguns back in my day, and a Hotshot Pack was just a powerful single-discharge cell)... can someone fill me in about this, cheers? [Maybe PM if it's a major 'off-topic' rant that's been gone over a million times already - I'm usually pretty good at finding those myself, so as not to trouble folks, but missed this one.]

EDIT: Hotsauceman1: It was the Ecclesiarchy (not Inquisition) forbidden 'men at arms'.