Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

No, it means that, if all that is stopping the IC from getting to base, and th eonly way he CAN make it to base, is a model already in btb with an enemy - you move that model out of the way to do it.

It adds an additional allowance to the rules.

Jidmah wrote:If you're nitpicking, care to explain how you move boyz out of base contact while still abiding to the pile in rules?

I don't think you can. I don't think the FAQ is saying you can. You move the other models that can move, meaning the ones that are not in base contact, out of the way. I don't think the FAQ gives you permission to move models already in base contact.

In that case, it would be ridiculously easy to hide an IC in a larger unit, defeating the whole point of that rule, wouldn't it?

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it means that, if all that is stopping the IC from getting to base, and th eonly way he CAN make it to base, is a model already in btb with an enemy - you move that model out of the way to do it.

It adds an additional allowance to the rules.

Your position is incorrect.

They talk about movement, and having to "move friendly models out of the way" this is a move, and as such needs to follow the movement rules, noted by the "they must move first" in the rules.

No allowance is given to just shove models out of base contact to get the IC into combat. this clause would not be needed if there was:
"If the Independent Character is still unable to make it into base contact he must move as close to the enemy as possible."

The general movement rules do not prohibit you from moving out of base contact - only pile in etc do

The situation outlined was for a Defenders react move. The Warboss needs to follow the Defenders react rules in this situation.

So we know once in B2B the model can not make a "Defenders react" or a "Pile in" move.

Remember that answer you posted, well here is the question that was asked:

FaQ wrote:"Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, must move before other friendly models to attempt to get in base contact with an enemy. What happens if the Independent Character is blocked from getting to enemy models by friendly models around him? (p49)"

"A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the way to make space for the Independent Character then they must move first. Followed by the Independent Character and finally the rest of the unit can move."

So models in Base Contact can not move out of base contact to let the IC through.

Defenders react says "...the player controlling the units that have been assaulted this turn must move any member of these units that is not yet in base contact with a foe towards the enemy."

Pile in: "Just like when defenders react to being assaulted these models move up to 6 inches"

So, unless I'm totally incapable of moving my models, a big mek/minestorium priest/blood priest would never see close combat, right?

Jidmah wrote:So, unless I'm totally incapable of moving my models, a big mek/minestorium priest/blood priest would never see close combat, right?

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I will try to answer.

A big mek/minestorium priest/blood priest would see close combat, unless they were surrounded by friendlies, and all those friendlies are in Base Contact with enemy models and there were no gaps in which to move through.

If he is completely surrounded and can not make it into base contact then: If enough friendly models in base contact die so that there is space for the IC to pile into base contact with the enemy, then you must move the IC first following the Pile in rules.

coredump wrote:

Jidmah wrote:If you're nitpicking, care to explain how you move boyz out of base contact while still abiding to the pile in rules?

I don't think you can. I don't think the FAQ is saying you can. You move the other models that can move, meaning the ones that are not in base contact, out of the way. I don't think the FAQ gives you permission to move models already in base contact.

This is the way I read it.

Wow, this thread just kept going.

Thanks for all the insightful answers everybody.

Terrain was a factor, the Warboss was for all purposes at the other end of a long thin corridor, only two regular sized infantry could fit side by side, about 10 of the 20 boys with him were outside the corridor.

As a crude analogy, the warboss was at the tip of the penis (obviously being the strongest and wanting to get to that egg first) followed by an innumerable (20) stream of boyz, when my DC and Lemartes attacked the balls most of them were stored in.

How does the battle unfold?

It unflold's as normal, anyone in B2B can not Defenders react, or Pile In.

Then you attempt to move the IC. If The IC can not move, then you move other models first following the Defenders react or Pile In rules to allow the IC into Base contact.

If that is not possible then the Independent Character must move as close to the enemy as possible.

Got it in which case we resolve the conflicts using only characters in b2b contact and characters within 2" of b2b contact (excluding the warboss)

DC is victorious, units take morale test (no boss pole on warboss, noob mistake) unit fails, retreats. DC make sweeping advance winning in initiative test, warboss and remainder of unit are destroyed.

Any IC's that are not in Base Contact can not fight in that rounds assault.

you fight with only those in b2b contact and characters within 2" of b2b contact, exclude any IC's because they MUST be in b2b contact to attack or be attacked.

DC Win, win SA test, remainder of unit are destroyed including the Warboss.

DeathReaper wrote:

Jidmah wrote:So, unless I'm totally incapable of moving my models, a big mek/minestorium priest/blood priest would never see close combat, right?

I am not sure what you mean by this, but I will try to answer.

A big mek/minestorium priest/blood priest would see close combat, unless they were surrounded by friendlies, and all those friendlies are in Base Contact with enemy models and there were no gaps in which to move through.

If he is completely surrounded and can not make it into base contact then: If enough friendly models in base contact die so that there is space for the IC to pile into base contact with the enemy, then you must move the IC first following the Pile in rules.

What I meant by this, that you can easily prevent your IC from piling into anything by being a little careful. When boyz charge anything other than other horde units they pretty much create a doughnut around it, preventing the bigmek from ever piling in, pretty much the same for any guard blob. Even if model count is low, by simply placing the charging models less than the bigmek's base size appart, you can effectively prevent getting him in combat. And last, but not least, if I have to abide to pile-in rules, I simply move those boyz/guardsmen/whatever which are in the way into base contact/contact with modes in base contact, because the rules tell me to do so. So unless I want to, that IC is never going to see combat, pretty much the exact opposite of what that rule is trying to archieve.

I'll steal your picture to demonstrate what I mean:

If ork7 were a kff bigmek and not a warboss, by your interpretation, it would be legal to move ork6 in such a way that he is in base contact with enemy3, but the big mek can't fit between ork6 and ork3, preventing him from entering combat, because he isn't able to reach enemy2. Now I would have to move ork4 and ork5 out of the way, moving ork4 in such a way that neither the bigmek, nor ork5 fits in the gap between it and ork1. Then move ork5 into base contact with ork4 to create a wall, making it impossible for the bigmek to get to enemy1 or enemy2 from this side, too. Now the bigmek has to move as close to the enemy as possible, which he alread is. Thus, I prevented the enemy from killing my fragile IC.

Yea that is the long and short of it.

If you B2B with ork models 1-6, then the Warboss, #7, can not initially get into combat.

Once #1 and #2 are removed as casualties then the warboss would need to pile in first (If they did not get caught in a SA or fall back).

So the first round, it is easy to trap an IC out of combat, but once casualties hit, then he will be in combat most likely.

That fight in the picture is more like third round of combat for orks

It's quite easy to get your bigmek pretty far away from combat on the charge, to prevent him from piling in for round2 (he can move anywhere without breaking coherency). Then he will be unable to join the fight up till round 4 - at which point the fight is decided anyways.

The problem I have with your interpretation is that it's extremely easy to lever out the obvious intent of the rule, and will cause your opponent to mourn or even stat throwing things like "WAAC" or "TFG" around. You will even have a hard time convincing anyone that moving models in the way to block the bigmek is "moving models out of the way". While you might be right in terms of RAW, I think your conclusion is unplayable in practice.

As I said earlier:

No allowance is given to just shove models out of base contact to get the IC into combat. the following clause would not be needed if there was:
"If the Independent Character is still unable to make it into base contact he must move as close to the enemy as possible."

But yea only WAAC players would attempt to keep the IC out of combat as long as possible.

The character could be too far away from the fight, or blocked by terrain.

How is obeying the rules you just explained being a WAAC player? That's like calling people WAAC players for not allocating wounds to their IC when getting shot.

If the IC is too far away from the fight, or blocked by terrain, that is one thing.

intentionally moving models to block him from combat is another.