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Why does girlyman get the sole credit for the codex? yeah he published it and all but it was a gathered collection of the tactical works of many primarchs, even Perturabo's siege knowledge is included in the codex and it was published after he'd fallen to chaos

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Why does girlyman get the sole credit for the codex? yeah he published it and all but it was a gathered collection of the tactical works of many primarchs, even Perturabo's siege knowledge is included in the codex and it was published after he'd fallen to chaos

I completley agree with this, sounds to me like Gulliman took the credit for all the other legions strengths and then copyrighted it before anyone knew about it. However, even though he did publish the Codex, not everyone were keen to listen or even follow it anyway, Leman Russ being a perfect example. In fact Leman Russ spat on the Codex and decided to do what he wanted with his legion, in complete defiance of his dear brother Robute. Gulliman was really was like that kid in class that's always putting his hand up when the teacher asks a question

yep, which is one of the reasons the Ultramarines are so disliked.

Bran Dawri has it right. Here's a bit of fluff about the Codex Astartes that has never been retconned:

"Many of the most brilliant minds of the age contributed to the Codex Astartes. It describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with such diverse elements as organizing troops, establishing supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subtrefuge and espionage, and of course, countless tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander.

With such brilliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'Johnson offering sagely advice, as well as the practical wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officers education."

From Armies of the Imperium, page 25.

Notice how they specifically mention Leman Russ as well as El'Johnson. Russ has never been some berserk raging backwater idiot like so many people would like to portray him. Instead, he's like the leader of a wolf pack. Very intelligent and cunning. So much so that he gets honorable mention in a GW published game supplement as being one of the people that helped form the Codex Astartes.

That would suggest that Leman Russ was jealous of his Brother taking the credit for bringing the Codex together and because of this would be the reason for not going along with it. Have I hit the nail on the head or is there more to it?

Lets look at this a different way, the defenders of the palace we all know as the Blood Angels, White Scars and The Imerial Fists aswell as Custodes and Soldiers.

The 3 Legions in Question to the Codex, Ultra Marines, Space Wolves and Dark Angels were absent through the whole seige. Given the fact that the Blood angels lost their Primarch Sanguinius.

Why then didn't one of the other Victors take the lead. Rogal Dorn I belive from fluff being like Russ towards the Codex in that he didn't like the Idea but i'll bet he still had an input into it, im mean he wasnt exactly a tactical moron was he?

It was noted of Rogal that he had the taxtical knowledge of girlyman and but was also capable of the flair possessed by the khan (who really needs a HH book, if he does have one that i haven't heard about, whats it called?)

Dorn was busy killing everything within his reach after the climax of the Horus Heresy and girlyman was left to do the cleaning up at home. Much like a woman.


See what I did there?

Also note, that the conflict about Rowboats book, and the idea that every one must follow it to the letter, along with splitting the legions, almost led to a second civil war in the aftermath of the heresy, even going so far as to the imperial navy elements of guillimans fleet opening fire on an IF cruiser IIRC. (index astartes black templars if I remember correctly), and Dorn, Russ and two other primarchs backed down, being outnumbered, outgunned and not wanting a 2nd civil war.

Remember, the UM were the without a doubt largest legion before and during the heresy. The white scars, Blood angels and IF were severely bloodied during the grinding siege, and the spacewolves, small to begin with, had been depleted against the thousand sons. Ravenguard and iron hands not recovered from the drop site massacre.

Basicly, no one wanted a second civil war, nor in the position to say no to the rowboat.

If I recall correctly, didn't rowboat become a highlord of terra whilst Dorn was off killing traitors aswell?

Anyhow, the lion and russ were the top strategists and tacticians, followed by guilliman and horus. Of those, only Horus had enugh respect amongst ALL his brothers, and people skills to become warmaster.

//Calle

Bran Dawri wrote:If you go by the only really measurable scale of tactical acumen, the list goes like this:

Victory tally:
1) Horus
2) Lion El'Johnson
3) Leman Russ.

There is one Primarch that is getting missed out in this and if this is accurate according to fluff, then Leman Russ was a sound Tactician too.

In the end I can understand that if it was based on who won the most then this list would be useful

However, what if some of the other legions just wernt employed as much as the others?

Lets face it, the Emperor didnt find all of the Primarchs at once did he?

It took him Decades to find them all and by the time he found Alpharius most of the other legions were already greatly battle hardened and the Primarchs leading them greatly more experienced

Experience counts for a lot in this sort of thing I belive.

Alpharius/Omegon are some of the greatest in my opinion.

81Northman wrote:That would suggest that Leman Russ was jealous of his Brother taking the credit for bringing the Codex together and because of this would be the reason for not going along with it. Have I hit the nail on the head or is there more to it?

Lets look at this a different way, the defenders of the palace we all know as the Blood Angels, White Scars and The Imerial Fists aswell as Custodes and Soldiers.

The 3 Legions in Question to the Codex, Ultra Marines, Space Wolves and Dark Angels were absent through the whole seige. Given the fact that the Blood angels lost their Primarch Sanguinius.

Why then didn't one of the other Victors take the lead. Rogal Dorn I belive from fluff being like Russ towards the Codex in that he didn't like the Idea but i'll bet he still had an input into it, im mean he wasnt exactly a tactical moron was he?

The Lion was too busy being KO'd in the rock, and no other legion had the strength or was willing to deny Ghillieman

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Why does girlyman get the sole credit for the codex? yeah he published it and all but it was a gathered collection of the tactical works of many primarchs, even Perturabo's siege knowledge is included in the codex and it was published after he'd fallen to chaos

Using slurs about a fictional character doesn't really lend much weight to your opinion, lol.

Guilliman wrote the Codex. But he was smart enough not to do it in a vacuum. It's thousands of pages long. There was plenty of room for the wisdom of all kinds of warfighting. It's part of Guilliman's brilliance that he collected it all in compilation. It's never been a secret that it contained the wisdom of other primarchs and even Imperial generals. Guilliman has gotten the credit for the Codex Astartes because he had the initiative and wisdom to take all that knowledge and make it usable and available. There's been suggestion that it's silly to write a book about fighting wars, because then your opponent could read it. Guess what, all that knowledge is out there today too. Reading the Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, contemporary warfighting pubs, etc doesn't make you a master of warfare. You have to be able to understand it and apply it in battle still. The Codex does not give the general a formula for winning battles, only the kinds of advice, wisdom, and collected experience to use when making their own decisions. The general still wins the battle by out thinking his opponent. Alpharius believed that knowing the Codex would allow him to easily predict the Ultramarines' maneuvers, and it cost him his life (most likely) when Guilliman surprised him. The Codex is definitely one of the most misunderstood things about the 40K universe. But if you don't get it, don't feel bad, you're game players, not military strategists. Even Graham McNeill, writer of Ultramarines novels, doesn't understand how it would work, lol. It has many parts. It lays down not just strategy and tactics, but also organizational elements, most notably the breakdown of chapters and companies, but also other mundane stuff like recruitment, indoctrination, training regimens, iconography, etc.

The parts of the Codex that Russ railed against were the organizational parts. He didn't want to split his legion up. It wasn't like he was such an idiot he said "I'm going to ignore all of this collected military strategy!" It was similar to the others who were initially reluctant to follow the Codex's tenets. Realize that being "Codex adherent", or "following the Codex" means following the logistical breakdown of the chapter and company structure. Not being a Codex Chapter doesn't mean that the chapter also ignores the military teachings. The primarchs were all arrogant and proud, pretty much without exception. Dismantling their legions, the only thing they had ever known, was unthinkable. Corax mentions it in one of the stories about how they had all been designed to be the saviors and defenders of mankind, but the first thing most of them had done with their power was to create their own kingdoms to rule over. Players of this game, most amusingly, like to base their thoughts on the Codex in some kind of first person sympathy with the initial reactions of their favorite color of primarch. Dorn, Russ, etc, they wanted to keep their legions because they enjoyed the power and influence they gave them. Guilliman wanted to dismantle the legions because he didn't want to see another Heresy. He had eventually accepted the same idea that Corax spoke of, that the Space Marines were to be the defenders of mankind, not the rulers of them, and that having single primarchs wielding massive legions was antithetical to that idea. It's the same reason that as soon as the work of establishing the High Lords and the Imperium Secundas (ie the Imperium in the absence of the Emperor's autocratic rule), he gave up his spot as a High Lord and stepped down. It was probably ultimately the wrong decision given that it gave rise to the Ecclesiarchy and all of the other modern oppressive elements of the Imperium, but it was what Guilliman believed the Emperor would have dictated. The primarchs were not meant to inherit the Imperium, they were supposed to create it. Horus couldn't accept that and the gods of Chaos used it to turn him. Consider this: The Ultramarines had the good fortune of only having to dispatch the weak and incompetent Word Bearers to survive the Heresy and it left Guilliman in the place to be the strongest of the primarchs and arguably the strongest individual in the galaxy, and yet when he had all that power, all that influence, and all that enabling, he stepped down and went back to Ultramar with his Chapter. He could have been Emperor, and chose not to.

Guilliman is definitely one of the more bland of the primarchs in terms of personality. That's exactly why Horus was chosen as Warmaster instead of him. And it also makes sense that he's not as popular amongst players because of that blandness. There's nothing grandiose and over the top about him. I call him "The Good Son" because he was the only one who truly got the Emperor's grand vision for humanity, but also because he only wanted to do what his father wanted him to. And really, was the only one capable of it. Think about it. By the time the Emperor found the other primarchs, they had made themselves kings, or battle leaders etc. By the time the Emperor found Guilliman, he'd made himself an emperor in his own right. Guilliman was, like Kol Phaeron said in The First Heretic, the Emperor's "echo, heart and soul. If all else went wrong, he would be heir to the empire". 1d4chan is hilarious to read, but far too many people seem to take it seriously when they formulate their opinions on Guilliman, the Ultramarines, and the Codex.

81Northman wrote: Guilliman was really was like that kid in class that's always putting his hand up when the teacher asks a question

That analogy would've worked if the kid insisted on being right to the point of shooting at his or her classmates with a BB-gun. There's nothing wrong with being right and answering questions correctly (writing the Codex), there IS something wrong with shooting at your classmates because they disagree with you (opening fire on an IF cruiser).

As a side note, I despise people who look down at people who answer questions in class (it's what you're friggin' SUPPOSED to do!) and as such hope that that wasn't what you were implying.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As a side note, I despise people who look down at people who answer questions in class (it's what you're friggin' SUPPOSED to do!) and as such hope that that wasn't what you were implying.

I think he was referring to the kids who on every question they raise their hand and yell "Pick me, PICK ME!!!!!".

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Why does girlyman get the sole credit for the codex? yeah he published it and all but it was a gathered collection of the tactical works of many primarchs, even Perturabo's siege knowledge is included in the codex and it was published after he'd fallen to chaos

Where does it say he took sole credit?

81Northman wrote:
I completley agree with this, sounds to me like Gulliman took the credit for all the other legions strengths and then copyrighted it before anyone knew about it. However, even though he did publish the Codex, not everyone were keen to listen or even follow it anyway, Leman Russ being a perfect example. In fact Leman Russ spat on the Codex and decided to do what he wanted with his legion, in complete defiance of his dear brother Robute. Gulliman was really was like that kid in class that's always putting his hand up when the teacher asks a question

Actually the only part of the Codex that appears to be mandatory is the ‘’splitting up the Legions part’’ something that eventually even Russ had to comply with in splitting his Legion. Everything else, tactics and force composition, seemed to be optional.

Thatguy91 wrote:Dorn was busy killing everything within his reach after the climax of the Horus Heresy and girlyman was left to do the cleaning up at home. Much like a woman.


See what I did there?

And there would be no Imperium without said cleaning. After all, it was the Ultramarines who formed more the half the Astartes in the field during the Scouring.

Jag_Calle wrote:Also note, that the conflict about Rowboats book, and the idea that every one must follow it to the letter, along with splitting the legions, almost led to a second civil war in the aftermath of the heresy, even going so far as to the imperial navy elements of guillimans fleet opening fire on an IF cruiser IIRC. (index astartes black templars if I remember correctly), and Dorn, Russ and two other primarchs backed down, being outnumbered, outgunned and not wanting a 2nd civil war.

Actually it was only Dorn and Russ. But where does it say that the codex had to be followed to the letter? The fact that the Raven Guard and White Scars both retain non-Codex elements and their Primarchs fully supported Guilliman pretty much disprove that idea.

Guilliman's contributions after the Heresy and the creation of the Codex Astartes were supposed to be his greatest achievements that helped save the Imperium, and were first described in detail in the Codex Ultramarines. But over time (not least due to the Black Templars background) that has come to be seen as an oppressive and arrogant act by a lot of players. The Codex Astartes is seen as flawed and a restricting element, and Space Marines would be far better off without it. (And to this the powerful army lists of divergent Chapters have certainly contributed quite a bit.)

That the Ultramarines rule over an entire collective of systems was likewise supposed to be one of their distinct achievements, but this is then turned into accusations of them being busy with "empire building", either during the Heresy or during the past 10,000 years.

To not like a faction is one thing. But to then take what are supposed to be some of their greatest achievements and turn that into accusations for why they are jerks or dislikeable is a disservice to the chapter.

They wouldnt be better of without them, I dont think anyone would argue with that. However It was made 10,000 years ago when the Imperium and the galaxy was in a completely different state. A huge civil war, perhaps the largest in the history of the galaxy, had just finished and it was definitely in a weakened state but the threats that the IoM face now are not the same as those faced 10,000 years ago. Just like any other text it needs to be updated to include current happenings so that the SM may adapt to their new environment. If something doesnt evolve to the next level then it will ultimately die off. Slowly but surely they will wither away. Every other race in the galaxy is constantly moving forward and evolving but because of their fierce adherence to the Codex the sm stay mostly stagnant.


Another reason why people dislike girlyman so much is not only because he has no personality whatsoever but because he basically did... well nothing. Compared to many other primarchs who we're on the forefront of the great crusade and the expansion that took place and not to mention the civil war. He had the largest legion at this disposal, fought a war against some incompetent religious fanatics, came home and started calling the shots after most other loyal legion had been more or less decimated.

Thatguy91 wrote:
Another reason why people dislike girlyman so much is not only because he has no personality whatsoever but because he basically did... well nothing. Compared to many other primarchs who we're on the forefront of the great crusade and the expansion that took place and not to mention the civil war. He had the largest legion at this disposal, fought a war against some incompetent religious fanatics, came home and started calling the shots after most other loyal legion had been more or less decimated.

Basically this. He is not a likeable primarch. Especially the way how Matt Ward writes about him.

He had no drawbacks which made him a mary sue. This 1,000 pages of the codex astrates does it ever get updated? NO!

The Codex Astartes is equal to GW's attitude of updating the history to expand forward. it doesn't change and stays the same thing.

Thats what I like about Dorn. He says okay, I'll use it along with this thingy. (Pulls out his own book which is updated by every captain and every chapter master of the Imperial Fists)

All imperial fists successor chapters follow dorn's example. (They deviate a lot and you gotta give credit to them because it looks they are following it)

Salamanders also spoke outrage against the Codex Astartes. They did not want to be broken up into smaller chapters. (I don't think they actually did because there were so few of them anyway)

Raven Guard follow bits and pieces of it.

It is basically the part that says that everyone strives to be an ultramarine which is absolute gak.

The Codex is flawed in that anyone can pick it up and read it and know how to fight against the space marines. Alpha Legion has done this 10 times. (Emperor's Swords, and 4 other chapters.) Plus we don't know if Alpharius was actually killed. PLus its not like it helped it made it worse! The ultramarines almost all died. And the account was from a Sarge who for all we know could of been an Alpha Legion member himself! (Example read One of the blood raven books, it turns out a group of them were Alpha Legionaries and they got their job done not surprisingly.)

Red Corsairs are also using this against the imperium. As they followed it before.

Few loyal chapters disregard the codex. In favor of seeing the fact that the Codex is flawed and does not count for fighting against new xenos creatures and the new threats out there. And they benefit from this. (Black Templars, Exorcists, Raptors, My DIY chapters, Space Wolves, Dark Angels (THEY HAVE A TON OF SUCCESSORS!))

Girlyman compared to Dorn and any other primarch loses. Because he fought against the Word Bearers who really weren't a threat. Compared to the +210,000 Ultramarines there were there. They have the largest fleet... And they fought who?

Thatguy91 wrote:They wouldnt be better of without them, I dont think anyone would argue with that. However It was made 10,000 years ago when the Imperium and the galaxy was in a completely different state. A huge civil war, perhaps the largest in the history of the galaxy, had just finished and it was definitely in a weakened state but the threats that the IoM face now are not the same as those faced 10,000 years ago. Just like any other text it needs to be updated to include current happenings so that the SM may adapt to their new environment. If something doesnt evolve to the next level then it will ultimately die off. Slowly but surely they will wither away. Every other race in the galaxy is constantly moving forward and evolving but because of their fierce adherence to the Codex the sm stay mostly stagnant.

Except it is updated. The Space Marine Codex states that the Codex has evolved over the centuries and contains wisdom from hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

Thatguy91 wrote:
Another reason why people dislike girlyman so much is not only because he has no personality whatsoever but because he basically did... well nothing. Compared to many other primarchs who we're on the forefront of the great crusade and the expansion that took place and not to mention the civil war. He had the largest legion at this disposal, fought a war against some incompetent religious fanatics, came home and started calling the shots after most other loyal legion had been more or less decimated.

You forget the part when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes during the Scouring and were instrumental in holding the Imperium together. Prior to that the Ultramarines conquered the most worlds in the Great Crusade.

So really, without Guilliman we would have no Imperium.

Of course Guilliman is hardly calling the shots. All I’m seeing is Guilliman starting the Scouring with 250,000 Marines and then ending up with only a 1,000 Marines and most of his support structure gone.

EDIT:

Asherian Command wrote:
He had no drawbacks which made him a mary sue.

I wouldn’t say that. After all, vanilla is not Mary sue.

Asherian Command wrote:
He had no drawbacks which made him a mary sue. This 1,000 pages of the codex astrates does it ever get updated? NO!

Yes it does. The actual Marine Codex is clear on this.

Asherian Command wrote:
Thats what I like about Dorn. He says okay, I'll use it along with this thingy. (Pulls out his own book which is updated by every captain and every chapter master of the Imperial Fists)

All imperial fists successor chapters follow dorn's example. (They deviate a lot and you gotta give credit to them because it looks they are following it)

Actually they don’t, have you read Imperial Fist fluff? They are an epitome of a Codex Chapter and second only to the Ultramarines.

Asherian Command wrote:
Salamanders also spoke outrage against the Codex Astartes. They did not want to be broken up into smaller chapters. (I don't think they actually did because there were so few of them anyway)

Actually no. Vulkan has been retconned itno being a Guilliman supporter.

Asherian Command wrote:
Raven Guard follow bits and pieces of it.

Corax was noted to embrace the Codex.

Asherian Command wrote:

The Codex is flawed in that anyone can pick it up and read it and know how to fight against the space marines.

Not at all. The Codex commander’s descision would logically be decided by as variety of factors. You would basically have ot be aware of every possible factor in order eoxploti the Codex.

The enemy commander would not only need access to the entire Codex, he would also have had to have studied it extensively to be able to make use of it. Not even a regular Space Marine is expected to know the Codex by heart in it's entirety, and it is said that the members of a Company are expected to memorize different sections of the Codex so that the company in its entirety has basically a "full" Codex available via memory. Of course, a Captain would know more than a Tactical Marine. But that is because he had hundreds of years to study the Codex. You are proposing that the enemy commander knows the Codex just as well, to "out-Codex" the Codex commander. And to reach that level of proficiency would require an enormeous effort.

After all, it had been anticipated by the Codex that Chapters would turn to Chaos in the future, as it's main decree (the division of the Legions) had been established for just that reason. So the Codex would never uncompromisingly demand a certain action where the enemy's knowledge of said action would doom the entire thing. Or else the Codex, whose main goal it was to prepare the new Space Marine Chapters for the event of new Space Marine Chapters turning, would be useless against new Space Marine Chapters that had just turned.

And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at. E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline, or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons. Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful. With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of Intel for that. You want to know what a Codex Chapter will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.

Asherian Command wrote:
Alpha Legion has done this 10 times. (Emperor's Swords, and 4 other chapters.)

No they have no. They simply infiltrated and destroyed the Emperor’s Swords by sleeper agents. The Codex was not given as cause for the Swords defeat. And I think you just made the rest up.

Asherian Command wrote:
Red Corsairs are also using this against the imperium. As they followed it before.

Interestingly when the Corsairs fight A Codex Chapter they are not compared favorably. This is from Blood Reaver:

"To say they arrived in orderly formation would be to do them an injustice, for the warriors' cohesion far exceeded anything seen in the Blood Reaver's attack force. In pristine ceramite of blue and white, matching the halved heraldries of ancient Terran knights, a single squad of warriors threw themselves into cover at the far end of the corridor. Their movements were utterly economical, ruthless in their soldiery precision, taking positions in total silence but for the growl of armour and the crack of bolter stocks against shoulder guards as each of them took aim.
Their leader was unhelmed, his stern features moulded into a mask of absolute resolve. Even over the distance, Talos knew that look, and could recall when he'd worn it himself. The defiance in the warrior's gaze made the prophet's skin crawl. Here was a man that believed in his cause. He felt no doubt, no hesitation, no temptation to wrack his mind in the fuile second-guessing of sworn duty. His life was unclouded by broken oaths, and the legacy of mistrust and confusion that drifted in the wake of every betrayal."

That scene features a Night Lord's observation of an arriving squad of enemy Marines Errant Marines. What stands out for the purpose of this thread are the observation that the Marines Errant's unit cohesion not only exceeded that of the Night Lords, but also that of the other units in Huron Blackheart's force. Then there is also that bit at the end, where Talos muses on the different mind set of traitors versus those of loyalists. The point I am trying to make with this is that even if a traitor force got ahold of the Codex Astartes, or even if it was an only recently turned Chapter, it is questionable whether the traitors would be able to apply all of the teachings of the Codex just like a loyalist Codex Chapter would. They might be able to use the broader tactical advice, but perhaps not the detailed battle doctrines. Traitors are of a different mindset, and Chaos warriors are often more individual minded, thinking of their own agenda, how to gain more power for themselves, probably mistrusting several of their comrades.

The problem with how some view the Codex Astartes is that they interpret it as being a specifically detailed set of instructions for a given situation. That is pretty much how McNeill seems to view it, and it is how he has described the Codex in "Rules of Engagement". The Codex dictated step by step how to fight a global campaign, and the Marine Commander using the Codex did not even understand what the ultimate goal of the individual steps would be. IMO that is a ridiculous notion, as it would be impossible to calculate and predict all the myriad constellations and factors of every battle ever to be fought. I mean, we are dealing with a fictional fantasy setting, but I just cannot keep up my suspension of disbelief with such a "predicts every step, in minute detail" manual.

I assume the Codex has much more general descriptions, and is intended to allow a force to work as economical and efficient as possible under varying circumstances. Situations have an optimal approach, and the Codex will have suggestions based on hundreds of years of warfare and empirical tests. But it cannot predict all minute details.

E.g. when fighting Orks, the Codex probably does not flat out dictate that every other squad should be equipped with a heavy bolter. Because then when facing a mechanized waaagh or a small force of 'ard boys and mega nobs the Marines would not be all that effective. The Codex will likely suggest that including heavy bolters is usually effective against orks, but the Codex will also suggest that missile launchers or laser cannons are useful against heavy armored opponents. When the Marine Commander is faced with an opposing waaagh, he has to decide the best course of action based on his intel of the situation and the suggestions of the Codex. If he only knows that he will be fighting Orks, he might opt to equip several of his squads with heavy bolters. But when the waaagh includes a lot of armour, he has to consider whether to equip more anti tank weapons.

The Codex will probably include figures on how many anti infantry and anti tank weapons are advisable depending on the amount of enemy infantry and enemy armour, but it will probably not flat out state that 3 squads should be given heavy bolters, 2 squads missile launchers and 1 squad a laser cannon.

Essentially, the way McNeill and some players see the Codex is that it gives specific instructions for how to equip and how to maneuver in minute detail, and the Marines will have to follow those specific instructions.

The way I see it the Codex makes a lot of suggestions on how to effectively and economically deal with more general situations, and it is then up to the Commander to assess the current situation and decide which suggestions of the Codex would be most applicable for the problems at hand.

As far as exploiting the Codex goes, the first point of view would of course allow for exploitation, as the enemy might now the exact weapon lay out and movement of the Codex force. The latter point of view would not allow for easy exploitation, since the Codex would tell the Commander how to conduct certain maneuvers, but it would not specifically tell him when and where to use them. It would be up to the Commander, to a certain degree, to figure out which tenets of the Codex would be most applicable and beneficial.

Thus an enemy possessing a copy of the Codex would lend them a somewhat greater advantage without, but it hardly would guarantee them victory or any significant advantage over a strict Codex Chapter.

Asherian Command wrote:
Girlyman compared to Dorn and any other primarch loses. Because he fought against the Word Bearers who really weren't a threat. Compared to the +210,000 Ultramarines there were there. They have the largest fleet... And they fought who?

Forgive me for thinking massive hordes of daemons and Traitor Astartes in a complete surprise attack are not a danger at all. Obviously Lorgar’s troops were no threat at all.
Plus we have the whole ‘’forming more than half the Astartes in the field and holding the Imperium together in the Scouring.’’ Thing that you ignored.

NONE OF THEM. They are either dead or missing... either way a good commander should be alive and know where he is =]

Thatguy91 wrote:Another reason why people dislike girlyman so much is not only because he has no personality whatsoever but because he basically did... well nothing. Compared to many other primarchs who we're on the forefront of the great crusade and the expansion that took place and not to mention the civil war. He had the largest legion at this disposal, fought a war against some incompetent religious fanatics, came home and started calling the shots after most other loyal legion had been more or less decimated.

Like I've said many times, most people dislike Guilliman and the Ultramarines because they have no idea what they are talking about. You sir, are a perfect example. I'm reminded of that scene from Billy Madison where the proctor of the academic decathalon berates him for answering in a completely nonsensical manner, lol.

Not on the forefront of the Great Crusade? O_o Where else would he have been? The original fluff about the Heresy suggested that the Ultramarines had be so succesful that they were too far away from Terra to intervene in the final battle. The story has changed slightly to say that Horus had set them up to be ambushed by the Word Bearers at Calth (which is on the opposite side of the galaxy from Terra), but there's no reason to believe that the Ultramarines suddenly became sedentary or absent during the Great Crusade. Sure, they missed the Battle of Terra, but that was one battle, for which for the Space Wolves and Dark Angels were also absent, as well as the decimated Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard and yet nobody comes up with any wild and asinine claims that they hadn't participated in the civil war (or more absurdly, that they hadn't participated in the Crusade). Heck, the Ultramarines routed a far larger Legion than the Space Wolves did and the Dark Angels couldn't even manage to destroy themselves. See what I did there? You guys just make stuff up in your heads to try and justify some kind of silly dislike for a fictional character.

As far as the criticisms of the Codex as an instruction manual, I'll leave these three quotes here. "We must always be adaptable and not too hide-bound in our thinkings" "There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield" "I do not wish it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative". All three are from Roboute Guilliman in "Rules of Engagement". It's a stupid story, but those quotes are important. Besides, think about it. Like Gree said, to beat a general steeped in the Codex, you'd need to know the Codex yourself. You'd need to know a counter strategy for the maneuver you felt they were going to use, and yet the Codex would have notations in it to predict, detect, and deal with that counter strategy. That's why it can't possibly lend itself to predictability, because it has hundreds of pages on every possible scenario. The better commander will win because he applies what he knows of warfare to the forces, terrain, environment, and enemy at hand. There's just no way the Codex would just have a list of instructions for every possible configuration of those variables.

Gree wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:They wouldnt be better of without them, I dont think anyone would argue with that. However It was made 10,000 years ago when the Imperium and the galaxy was in a completely different state. A huge civil war, perhaps the largest in the history of the galaxy, had just finished and it was definitely in a weakened state but the threats that the IoM face now are not the same as those faced 10,000 years ago. Just like any other text it needs to be updated to include current happenings so that the SM may adapt to their new environment. If something doesnt evolve to the next level then it will ultimately die off. Slowly but surely they will wither away. Every other race in the galaxy is constantly moving forward and evolving but because of their fierce adherence to the Codex the sm stay mostly stagnant.

Except it is updated. The Space Marine Codex states that the Codex has evolved over the centuries and contains wisdom from hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.
Source? When I read it doesn't say that It has only updated it after the Tyranids attacked and that was a minor change.

Thatguy91 wrote:
Another reason why people dislike girlyman so much is not only because he has no personality whatsoever but because he basically did... well nothing. Compared to many other primarchs who we're on the forefront of the great crusade and the expansion that took place and not to mention the civil war. He had the largest legion at this disposal, fought a war against some incompetent religious fanatics, came home and started calling the shots after most other loyal legion had been more or less decimated.

You forget the part when the Ultramarines formed more than half the Astartes during the Scouring and were instrumental in holding the Imperium together. Prior to that the Ultramarines conquered the most worlds in the Great Crusade.

So really, without Guilliman we would have no Imperium.

Of course Guilliman is hardly calling the shots. All I’m seeing is Guilliman starting the Scouring with 250,000 Marines and then ending up with only a 1,000 Marines and most of his support structure gone.
Source? I remember he formed 21 chapters. He did not actually have that happen. They split up the forces because it was more efficent that is the only reason why they broke up the legions it was more efficient.
EDIT:

Asherian Command wrote:
He had no drawbacks which made him a mary sue.

I wouldn’t say that. After all, vanilla is not Mary sue.
Thats not a drawback, that is just a flavor of Mary Sue

Asherian Command wrote:
He had no drawbacks which made him a mary sue. This 1,000 pages of the codex astrates does it ever get updated? NO!

Yes it does. The actual Marine Codex is clear on this.
Source?

Asherian Command wrote:
Thats what I like about Dorn. He says okay, I'll use it along with this thingy. (Pulls out his own book which is updated by every captain and every chapter master of the Imperial Fists)

All imperial fists successor chapters follow dorn's example. (They deviate a lot and you gotta give credit to them because it looks they are following it)

Actually they don’t, have you read Imperial Fist fluff? They are an epitome of a Codex Chapter and second only to the Ultramarines.
Yes read the five spheres. They added a massive portion to the codex astartes and the Black Templars want a word with you.

Asherian Command wrote:
Salamanders also spoke outrage against the Codex Astartes. They did not want to be broken up into smaller chapters. (I don't think they actually did because there were so few of them anyway)

Actually no. Vulkan has been retconned itno being a Guilliman supporter.
Source? I just read it and It said he Did.

Asherian Command wrote:
Raven Guard follow bits and pieces of it.

Corax was noted to embrace the Codex.
Yes after his failed experiments in the raven's tower

Asherian Command wrote:

The Codex is flawed in that anyone can pick it up and read it and know how to fight against the space marines.

Not at all. The Codex commander’s descision would logically be decided by as variety of factors. You would basically have ot be aware of every possible factor in order exploit the Codex.

The enemy commander would not only need access to the entire Codex, he would also have had to have studied it extensively to be able to make use of it. Not even a regular Space Marine is expected to know the Codex by heart in it's entirety, and it is said that the members of a Company are expected to memorize different sections of the Codex so that the company in its entirety has basically a "full" Codex available via memory. Of course, a Captain would know more than a Tactical Marine. But that is because he had hundreds of years to study the Codex. You are proposing that the enemy commander knows the Codex just as well, to "out-Codex" the Codex commander. And to reach that level of proficiency would require an enormeous effort.

After all, it had been anticipated by the Codex that Chapters would turn to Chaos in the future, as it's main decree (the division of the Legions) had been established for just that reason. So the Codex would never uncompromisingly demand a certain action where the enemy's knowledge of said action would doom the entire thing. Or else the Codex, whose main goal it was to prepare the new Space Marine Chapters for the event of new Space Marine Chapters turning, would be useless against new Space Marine Chapters that had just turned.

And not only would it be easier to predict the actions of a divergent Chapter, it would also be possible to force them into an engagement where they cannot play to their strengths, and are forced to use tactics they are less adapt at. E.g. you could deny an Iron Warriors force the option to employ a static gunline, or engage Salamanders at range and pull back, forcing them to employ faster units and longer range weapons. Similarly, a White Scars force would feel less comfortable in an engagement where hit and run and mobile units are less useful. With a Codex Chapter on the other hand, you can not so easily create a situation they would be less capable to deal with.

You want to know what the White Scars, the Black Templars or the Iron Warriors will most likely do? You don't need a lot of Intel for that. You want to know what a Codex Chapter will do? You need intimate knowledge of a library full of warfare history, need to know their exact force dispositions and what they know about your force dispositions, and then have to take into account all the other details of this encounter, or rather, what the Codex commander knows about the details of this encounter. For every such detail the enemy commander evaluates differently than the Codex commander, it means a divergence in what the Codex commander might do and what the enemy commander predicts he will do.
Why would the White Scars and Black Templars attack astartes chapters? The Iron Warriors would not know anything, and the Codex Chapters have been decieved by tacticans after they read the codex Astartes. And where the hell are your sources?

Asherian Command wrote:
Alpha Legion has done this 10 times. (Emperor's Swords, and 4 other chapters.)

No they have no. They simply infiltrated and destroyed the Emperor’s Swords by sleeper agents. The Codex was not given as cause for the Swords defeat. And I think you just made the rest up.
Yes after they recruited from a standardized system of recruitment detailed in the Codex. Plus the Fire Angels were played by the Red Corsairs, And no I didn't make the rest up. Its all on Lexi

However, the Alpha Legion primarch was apparently taken by surprise when Guilliman departed from his own strictures and led a surprise assault by his elite units on the Alpha Legion headquarters. In the resultant personal combat between Alpharius and Guilliman, it is believed that Alpharius was killed. The Alpha Legion responded, not by breaking and fleeing as Guilliman expected, but by turning on the Ultramarine detachment and harrying them so mercilessly that by the time they had returned to the main body of the Ultramarine force their casualties were almost total. The Ultramarines were driven from the planet in the subsequent battle.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Alpha_Legion#.TxY52oHF_To

Asherian Command wrote:
Red Corsairs are also using this against the imperium. As they followed it before.

Interestingly when the Corsairs fight A Codex Chapter they are not compared favorably. This is from Blood Reaver:

"To say they arrived in orderly formation would be to do them an injustice, for the warriors' cohesion far exceeded anything seen in the Blood Reaver's attack force. In pristine ceramite of blue and white, matching the halved heraldries of ancient Terran knights, a single squad of warriors threw themselves into cover at the far end of the corridor. Their movements were utterly economical, ruthless in their soldiery precision, taking positions in total silence but for the growl of armour and the crack of bolter stocks against shoulder guards as each of them took aim.
Their leader was unhelmed, his stern features moulded into a mask of absolute resolve. Even over the distance, Talos knew that look, and could recall when he'd worn it himself. The defiance in the warrior's gaze made the prophet's skin crawl. Here was a man that believed in his cause. He felt no doubt, no hesitation, no temptation to wrack his mind in the fuile second-guessing of sworn duty. His life was unclouded by broken oaths, and the legacy of mistrust and confusion that drifted in the wake of every betrayal."

ahem they still actually have 17,000 Members and they also maintain a large force, and not only that but the Night Lords actually decimated many companies. The Celestial Lions for example followed the codex to the letter and had their entire chapter destroyed.
btw a quote from the Badab War of how 'ineffective' (Sarcasm btw) Not long into the year a question that had been concerning Imperial tacticians was at last seemingly answered. The interrogation of a captured Astral Claws Apothecary took an unexpected turn when the prisoner revealed that he was in fact a member of the Tiger Claws chapter, an Astral Claws descendent long thought lost. Further Inquisitorial research would eventually establish that the reasons Huron had withheld gene-seed for so long was that not only was he attempting to enlarge the size of the Astral Claws beyond Codex norms, he was attempting to secretly rebuild the almost wiped-out successor chapter, hiding the extant members within their parent chapter. This explained why the Astral Claws appeared able to take losses but not lose their fighting strength.1h

That scene features a Night Lord's observation of an arriving squad of enemy Marines Errant Marines. What stands out for the purpose of this thread are the observation that the Marines Errant's unit cohesion not only exceeded that of the Night Lords, but also that of the other units in Huron Blackheart's force. Then there is also that bit at the end, where Talos muses on the different mind set of traitors versus those of loyalists. The point I am trying to make with this is that even if a traitor force got ahold of the Codex Astartes, or even if it was an only recently turned Chapter, it is questionable whether the traitors would be able to apply all of the teachings of the Codex just like a loyalist Codex Chapter would. You do realize I am saying they won't apply it but predict the movements made by the Space Marine chapters right? taht is what i am pointing out They might be able to use the broader tactical advice, but perhaps not the detailed battle doctrines. Traitors are of a different mindset, and Chaos warriors are often more individual minded, thinking of their own agenda, how to gain more power for themselves, probably mistrusting several of their comrades.

The problem with how some view the Codex Astartes is that they interpret it as being a specifically detailed set of instructions for a given situation. That is pretty much how McNeill seems to view it, and it is how he has described the Codex in "Rules of Engagement". The Codex dictated step by step how to fight a global campaign, and the Marine Commander using the Codex did not even understand what the ultimate goal of the individual steps would be. IMO that is a ridiculous notion, as it would be impossible to calculate and predict all the myriad constellations and factors of every battle ever to be fought. I mean, we are dealing with a fictional fantasy setting, but I just cannot keep up my suspension of disbelief with such a "predicts every step, in minute detail" manual.

I assume the Codex has much more general descriptions, and is intended to allow a force to work as economical and efficient as possible under varying circumstances. Situations have an optimal approach, and the Codex will have suggestions based on hundreds of years of warfare and empirical tests. But it cannot predict all minute details.

E.g. when fighting Orks, the Codex probably does not flat out dictate that every other squad should be equipped with a heavy bolter. Because then when facing a mechanized waaagh or a small force of 'ard boys and mega nobs the Marines would not be all that effective. The Codex will likely suggest that including heavy bolters is usually effective against orks, but the Codex will also suggest that missile launchers or laser cannons are useful against heavy armored opponents. When the Marine Commander is faced with an opposing waaagh, he has to decide the best course of action based on his intel of the situation and the suggestions of the Codex. If he only knows that he will be fighting Orks, he might opt to equip several of his squads with heavy bolters. But when the waaagh includes a lot of armour, he has to consider whether to equip more anti tank weapons. It is followed by the letter by some chapters that is the problem with it. It is too broad with its interpretations and could be interpreted anyway which leads room to mistakes by captains. That is the problem I am pointing out. Some Xenos creature that is vastly more intelligent could predict movements look at the tyranids, they have tested the imperium and it's space marines and have learned how to deal with them. more often than not they make them have heroic last stands to trick them to die. As the codex does not dictate how to fight against an enemy that has completely surrounded you. Plus Steel RHAIN did not work out for Captain Boreale did it?

The Codex will probably include figures on how many anti infantry and anti tank weapons are advisable depending on the amount of enemy infantry and enemy armour, but it will probably not flat out state that 3 squads should be given heavy bolters, 2 squads missile launchers and 1 squad a laser cannon. WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS STUFF? There is nothing in the codex, you keep giving us stuff that sounds correct but you cannot provide us sources! Lexicanum, My codex Astartes, HELL MY 2nd ed book doesn't have that much on it. You keep persuming this warhammer 40k, not a fanfic. You keep providing only two or three sources that are not cited! I would not be making a big deal if your points didn't sound like assumptions!

the Codex Astartes is the doctrine of the Space Marine Chapters, governing all aspects of Chapter organization and battlefield tactics. For any given tactical situation, the Codex has hundreds of pages devoted to how it may be met and overcome. The wisdom of thousands of Imperial warriors have contributed to the Codex, and details on everything from unit markings to launching a full-scale planetary assault are contained within its pages

Essentially, the way McNeill and some players see the Codex is that it gives specific instructions for how to equip and how to maneuver in minute detail, and the Marines will have to follow those specific instructions. So you are dismissing other writers but allowing other writers? Mate this brings in C.S. Goto into play then. [color]

The way I see it the Codex makes a lot of suggestions on how to effectively and economically deal with more general situations, and it is then up to the Commander to assess the current situation and decide which suggestions of the Codex would be most applicable for the problems at hand. [color=red] Hey mate in a debate like this. Bringing your personal interpretations makes your engagement of topics kinda invalid in this debate.

As far as exploiting the Codex goes, the first point of view would of course allow for exploitation, as the enemy might now the exact weapon lay out and movement of the Codex force. The latter point of view would not allow for easy exploitation, since the Codex would tell the Commander how to conduct certain maneuvers, but it would not specifically tell him when and where to use them. It would be up to the Commander, to a certain degree, to figure out which tenets of the Codex would be most applicable and beneficial. Yes but it would take the other opposing force to see oh wait he is doing that, so i will bring out this group to beat the snot out of these guys. Its a giant chess game dude. And sadly the space marines may think they are good at chess but even a Super human cannot think fast enough to get their heads slammed against a wall

Thus an enemy possessing a copy of the Codex would lend them a somewhat greater advantage without, but it hardly would guarantee them victory or any significant advantage over a strict Codex Chapter.
Then we agree? The chapter would be screwed. Hence why I think the Space Wolves are highly entertaining.

Asherian Command wrote:
Girlyman compared to Dorn and any other primarch loses. Because he fought against the Word Bearers who really weren't a threat. Compared to the +210,000 Ultramarines there were there. They have the largest fleet... And they fought who?

Forgive me for thinking massive hordes of daemons and Traitor Astartes in a complete surprise attack are not a danger at all. Obviously Lorgar’s troops were no threat at all.
Plus we have the whole ‘’forming more than half the Astartes in the field and holding the Imperium together in the Scouring.’’ Thing that you ignored. Compared to what? A TITAN LEGION? He did not face titan's he did not fight at the battle of terra, He did not face legions of demons that the Battle of terra saw. He did fight alot but he had the strongest legion and the largest fleet of Space marines! He did not fight side by side with his fellow Battle brothers at the gate of eternity he did not see an entire population getting tortured! He may of held the imperium together but he cannot claim to be THE hero of the Imperium or be the Spiritual Leige of the Astartes. He is just a primarch that wrote a book, and had his Captains fight for him. He is not the greatest tactician, it is evident after he fell into the Alpha Legion trap. He lost almost his entire strike force. Alpharius is still alive. As it is constantly reported that Alpharius's keep popping up. And not only that but They are legion oh look you killed one. Oh no two more take his place HAIL HYDRA! The Codex is proved to be ineffective against in Astartes vs Astartes combat. It is the numbers that win the war in that type of combat, and the faith in humanity. Not the codex.

See my wording in red. I have studied the Codex and I see it as ineffective against beasts especially in the ghoul stars, maelstorm and most of the areas on the border regions. Entire chapters followed it and got wiped out its not effective it shows to still have the same causalities as the great crusade.
/end of rant.

Just provide sources and I will accept it. but your showing off an opinion.

Now back on topic.
The Lion
And Robute
And Dorn
And Leman Russ
Were the best Tacticians.

Asherian Command wrote:
Source? When I read it doesn't say that It has only updated it after the Tyranids attacked and that was a minor change.

I just gave you the source the 5th edition Space Marine Codex. pg.9

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history.

Asherian Command wrote:
Source? I remember he formed 21 chapters. He did not actually have that happen. They split up the forces because it was more efficent that is the only reason why they broke up the legions it was more efficient.

Again, Index Astartes Ultramarines. Guilliman only led that force. He did not lead the other chapters.

Asherian Command wrote:
Source?
.

The 5th Edition Space Marine Codex? Have you not read my posts?

Asherian Command wrote:
Yes read the five spheres. They added a massive portion to the codex astartes and the Black Templars want a word with you.

The Five Spheres does not replace or ignore the Codex Astartes. They are foremost A Codex Chapter The Black Templars are the only non-Codex Dorn chapter.

Index Astartes Imperial Fists

Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. When they later emerged, their adherence to the Codex was matched only by the Ultramarines.

Alongside the Ultramarines, the Imperial Fists have become the epitome of Codex doctrine. All ranks are able to make tactical decisions and are encouraged to act on initiative. The Imperial Fists combine all arms in flexible balanced battle groups each of which can present an opponent with a diversity of threats then press their attack so swiftly that the foe is overwhelmed before he can react. They retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare, although they are quite willing to engage and defeat the enemy in open battle. They will use fortifications on the defensive, but only after all more aggressive options have been exhausted. Their only weakness is perhaps a reluctance to accept the possibility of defeat that sometimes blinds them to risk.

Index Astartes Crimson Fists

As has been noted, the Crimson Fists have, since their founding ten millennia ago, adhered rigidly to the precepts of the Codex Aslartes. Following the Battle of Rynn's World, the chapter is committing all available resources into rebuilding this organisation.

Asherian Command wrote:
Source? I just read it and It said he Did.

Imperial Armour 10, under the Salamanders section.

Asherian Command wrote:
Yes after his failed experiments in the raven's tower

That does not change the fact he still embraced it.

Asherian Command wrote:
Why would the White Scars and Black Templars attack astartes chapters?

Because they might fight traitor Codex chapters? But it does not have to be Astartes chapters necessarily, just anybody who has studied them.

Asherian Command wrote:
The Iron Warriors would not know anything,

That is not my point. You would need to just study the Iron Warriors.

Asherian Command wrote:
and the Codex Chapters have been decieved by tacticans after they read the codex Astartes.

And I’m pointing out why that’s unlikely.

Asherian Command wrote:
And where the hell are your sources?[/color]

Where the hell are your sources? You have made many claims but given none.

Asherian Command wrote:
Yes after they recruited from a standardized system of recruitment detailed in the Codex.

Source? You don’t know how they recruit or what the Codex details. You don’t know if the Emperor’s Swords are even a Codex Chapter.

Asherian Command wrote:
Plus the Fire Angels were played by the Red Corsairs,

Source?

Asherian Command wrote:
, And no I didn't make the rest up. Its all on Lexi

No it is not. So far I’ve double checked the sources and you are incorrect.

Lexicanum is a wikipedia, it may cite sources but upon actually checking those sources myself you have taken them out of context or are just plain wrong.

Asherian Command wrote:
ahem they still actually have 17,000 Members and they also maintain a large force, a

Proof and sources?

Asherian Command wrote:
and not only that but the Night Lords actually decimated many companies..

If you would bother to read the actual fluff only a single company was present. The rulebook details the battle in the timeline section.

Asherian Command wrote:
The Celestial Lions for example followed the codex to the letter and had their entire chapter destroyed.

Proof and sources? You don't know if following the Codex tactics resulted in havign their entire chapter destroyed.

Asherian Command wrote:
btw a quote from the Badab War of how 'ineffective' (Sarcasm btw) Not long into the year a question that had been concerning Imperial tacticians was at last seemingly answered. The interrogation of a captured Astral Claws Apothecary took an unexpected turn when the prisoner revealed that he was in fact a member of the Tiger Claws chapter, an Astral Claws descendent long thought lost. Further Inquisitorial research would eventually establish that the reasons Huron had withheld gene-seed for so long was that not only was he attempting to enlarge the size of the Astral Claws beyond Codex norms, he was attempting to secretly rebuild the almost wiped-out successor chapter, hiding the extant members within their parent chapter. This explained why the Astral Claws appeared able to take losses but not lose their fighting strength.1h

What does any of that have to do with my argument?

Asherian Command wrote:
You do realize I am saying they won't apply it but predict the movements made by the Space Marine chapters right? taht is what i am pointing out

And those movements would be affected by different tactical factors.

Asherian Command wrote:
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS STUFF? There is nothing in the codex, you keep giving us stuff that sounds correct but you cannot provide us sources! Lexicanum, My codex Astartes, HELL MY 2nd ed book doesn't have that much on it. You keep persuming this warhammer 40k, not a fanfic. You keep providing only two or three sources that are not cited! I would not be making a big deal if your points didn't sound like assumptions!
.

That why I said ‘’I assume’’ and I’m guessing on what the Codex would logically contain.

My earlier quote refers to the Codex as ''guidelines'' (''These guidelines have evolved over the centuries.'') I am basing off what a Codex would contain.

We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we do know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.

From this I would conclude that there is perhaps a correlation, and that what the Codex suggests has its merit. There is also the fact that the Codex includes doctrines of not just one but several Primarchs, compiled and collected by one Primarch who had a thing for studying such things. That would support my conclusion, I would say.

Asherian Command wrote:
. [color=red] So you are dismissing other writers but allowing other writers? Mate this brings in C.S. Goto into play then. [color]

I am pointing out McNeill’s interpretation in daft and I’m criticizing him yes.

Asherian Command wrote:
[color=red] Hey mate in a debate like this. Bringing your personal interpretations makes your engagement of topics kinda invalid in this debate.

And we have been bringing a lot of that haven’t you?

Asherian Command wrote:
Yes but it would take the other opposing force to see oh wait he is doing that, so i will bring out this group to beat the snot out of these guys. Its a giant chess game dude. And sadly the space marines may think they are good at chess but even a Super human cannot think fast enough to get their heads slammed against a wall

I’m not quite sure how this makes sense. In order to see what the other guy is doing the other guy would first have to ‘’out-Codex’’ the other commander, and then know everything then he knew first and he would know what that maneuver is accomplishing.

It would also be important to know what the Codex commander knows of the opposition. He will probably know that he is fighting Traitor Marines. Does he know what kind of units are at their disposal? Are they recent renegades, or cult heavy? Supprt heavy, or more assault? Is he aware that they are going against the Alpha Legion? All of that would be important to know as well, since it could drastically alter a Codex commander's choice of tactics, while it would not necessarily alter a divergent commander's choice.

The notion is often put forward that a Codex Chapter would be easy to predict once the enemy would have knowledge of the Codex. I not only disagree that this would be the case if the enemy had knowledge of the Codex, I also think that it would be a much greater effort to gather the information to be able to anticipate a Codex Chapter's actions than it would be for a divergent Chapter.

You are assuming that the Codex is so extensive that it has a chapter "When facing 3000 Orks with 150 Marines in moutainous terrain with a river and bridge, you must deploy your units in this manner....."

No. No military in history has ever operated this way. Elite forces of the future would not either.

Today, different militaries have different doctrines. This does make them predictable to an extent. But the military commanders are free (and encouraged) to use innovative tactics. Military officers of the future would be similarly encouraged.

The difference is that as soon as the Codex force realizes that the enemy knows about the Codex Astartes, they will immediately switch gear and it becomes the earlier mentioned "chess game", while a force without special protocols for such a situation would have a much harder time to adapt to such a well prepared enemy.

Asherian Command wrote:
Then we agree? The chapter would be screwed. Hence why I think the Space Wolves are highly entertaining.

No we don’t agree. I just stated it would not give a significant advantage.

Asherian Command wrote:
[color=red] Compared to what? A TITAN LEGION? He did not face titan's he did not fight at the battle of terra, He did not face legions of demons that the Battle of terra saw. He did fight alot but he had the strongest legion and the largest fleet of Space marines!

And the defenders at the Siege had the strongest defenses in the Imperium and the Emperor. One might as well blame the Lion and Russ for not doing anything since they did not fight at the siege.

Asherian Command wrote:
He did not fight side by side with his fellow Battle brothers at the gate of eternity he did not see an entire population getting tortured! He may of held the imperium together but he cannot claim to be THE hero of the Imperium or be the Spiritual Leige of the Astartes.

Where did Guilliman claim that? Mat Ward made statements but the Ultramarines to my knowledge have not made any statements.

Asherian Command wrote:
He may of held the imperium together but he cannot claim to be THE hero of the Imperium or be the Spiritual Leige of the Astartes. He is just a primarch that wrote a book, and had his Captains fight for him. He is not the greatest tactician, it is evident after he fell into the Alpha Legion trap. He lost almost his entire strike force. Alpharius is still alive.
.

Of a battle that supposedly happened.

Index Astartes Alpha Legion

Following the Horus Heresy, thousands of records, archives and libraries were destroyed to purge ad mention, indeed any memory, of the traitors. Ten millennia later there are now billions of Imperial citizens who remain unaware that the rebellion ever happened. However, a few tomes survived, mostly in the hands of those in high authority or heretics whose loyalties still remained undiscovered. It is from these works that historians and Inquisitors have gleaned their knowledge of those ancient times. Of course, shifting out the truth is never easy, because most books are copies of copies or simply forgeries filled with lies.

In the case of the Alpha Legion, reliable facts are even harder to come by, as the legion was notoriously secretive.

The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.

So it's stated that information on the Alpha Legion is hard to come by and often filled with lies. The same article explains that the battle with the Alpha Legion was doubted by many people to have ever happened in the first place.

Asherian Command wrote:
The Codex is proved to be ineffective against in Astartes vs Astartes combat. It is the numbers that win the war in that type of combat, and the faith in humanity. Not the codex.

Where has it proved ineffective outside of an alleged battle?

Asherian Command wrote:
See my wording in red. I have studied the Codex and I see it as ineffective against beasts especially in the ghoul stars, maelstorm and most of the areas on the border regions.

Proof and sources? You can give specific accounts?

Perhaps if I pull up a list of Ultramarine actions

698.M41: Corinthian Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a seven year multi-Chapter Crusade against the Ork empire of Charadon. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

701.M41: An Ultramarines infiltration force destroys the Iron Warriors' Fortress of Pain. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

807.M41: Two Ultramarines Companies reclaim the rebellious oceanic cities on Jhanna. The rebels had Chaos Space Marine allies. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

861.M41: The Ultramarines defeat a "powerful coalition of Eldar Raiders". (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

941.M41: Second Battle for Armegeddon - The Ultramarines fightalongside the Imperial Guard, the Blood Angels and the Salamanders againsg the Waaagh Ghazghkull. (various)

944.M41: Balur Crusade - Calgar is elected leader of a larger Crusade effort against worlds on the eastern fringe. The opposition includes worlds held by the Orks. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

995.M41: Calgar acts as supreme commandee in the defense of Ichar IV against the splinter fleet of Hive Fleet Kraken. (3rdC:SM, p. 36)

Most, if not all are victories. And this is just from lookign at what I have on hand. I'm sure when I get home I casn gather many more evidence of Ultramarine victories.

Asherian Command wrote:
Just provide sources and I will accept it. but your showing off an opinion.

Maybe you could take your own advice……

Didn't Girlyman berate Alpharius for his extraordinarily effective campaign to retake an entire fully and thoroughly fortified world that had turned against the Imperium which resulted not only in success but astoundingly minimal casualties because it was "cowardly?" Sounds like someone threw a hissy fit for being outdone.

Source? How about from the beginning. Your interpretation has actually never been correct, lol.

Codex: Ultramarines, 1995: "These guidelines have been much modified over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the 41st millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history."... "Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of commanders on the spot." (p.10)

Index Astartes I has almost identical text, except that it says "These guidelines have evolved over the centuries..." (p.13)

So tell us another made up story about how you've "studied the Codex Astartes". As if there is anything to actually study other than general descriptive commentary on it. If Codex Chapters have been defeated in the past, perhaps that;s just because, oh, I don't know, the other side had a better general? I mean, for every insipid example you come up with where a Codex Chapter was defeated, there are plenty more examples where Codex Chapters have won battles. So, obviously using your brand of... logic (lol), then the Codex Astartes was superior in those situations and worked perfectly.

Just to address your little "Spiritual Liege" comment (which only cements the proof that you don't actually know anything about the Codex since such a grave misreading calls into question all of your credibility), The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it only refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a Primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and Scouring, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

Good lord, your post is so full of errors, half formed ideas, incomplete logic, and flat out bad reasoning, I can't be bothered to address any more of the specifics.

King Pariah wrote:Didn't Girlyman berate Alpharius for his extraordinarily effective campaign to retake an entire fully and thoroughly fortified world that had turned against the Imperium which resulted not only in success but astoundingly minimal casualties because it was "cowardly?" Sounds like someone threw a hissy fit for being outdone.

It is explained essentially that Alpharius was just showing off and could have done the entire thing quicker. Guilliman was criticizing it as a waste and was technically correct. The purpose of the Great Crusade was to conquer worlds ad quickly and efficiently for the Emperor, not to show off.

Gree wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Didn't Girlyman berate Alpharius for his extraordinarily effective campaign to retake an entire fully and thoroughly fortified world that had turned against the Imperium which resulted not only in success but astoundingly minimal casualties because it was "cowardly?" Sounds like someone threw a hissy fit for being outdone.

It is explained essentially that Alpharius was just showing off and could have done the entire thing quicker. Guilliman was criticizing it as a waste and was technically correct. The purpose of the Great Crusade was to conquer worlds ad quickly and efficiently for the Emperor, not to show off.

I know that it was showing off, and I wasn't talking really about that (and if you think about it, Girlyman isn't in the clean either over this one with his actions and constant berating of Alpharius even prior to the campaign which drove Alpharius to do what he did as a "See? I can do it too."), didn't Girlyman call Alpharius's extraordinarily efficient tactics cowardly?

King Pariah wrote:

Gree wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Didn't Girlyman berate Alpharius for his extraordinarily effective campaign to retake an entire fully and thoroughly fortified world that had turned against the Imperium which resulted not only in success but astoundingly minimal casualties because it was "cowardly?" Sounds like someone threw a hissy fit for being outdone.

It is explained essentially that Alpharius was just showing off and could have done the entire thing quicker. Guilliman was criticizing it as a waste and was technically correct. The purpose of the Great Crusade was to conquer worlds ad quickly and efficiently for the Emperor, not to show off.

I know that it was showing off, and I wasn't talking really about that (and if you think about it, Girlyman isn't in the clean either over this one with his actions and constant berating of Alpharius even prior to the campaign which drove Alpharius to do what he did as a "See? I can do it too."), didn't Girlyman call Alpharius's extraordinarily efficient tactics cowardly?

Let's look at the actual quote:

His conduct of the battle for Tesstra brought Alpharius censure from many quarters. Roboute Guilliman is recorded as having called it "a huge waste of time, effort and the Emperor's bolt shells". However, concerns about alleged atrocities committed by the Night Lords legion diverted attention away from the incident. Nevertheless, Alpharius was furious at the reaction to his Legions masterful performance. Only Horus openly praised the manner in which the Alpha Legion had overcome opposition that outnumbered them a hundred to one. Horus was the only other Primarch whom Alpharius had any regular contact with. The two appeared to respect each other greatly, and are thought to have discussed tactics on more than one occasion.

Nothing about cowardice.

The measure of a true tactical or strategic mind is being able to think of ways to solve otherwise impossible problems.

I really struggle to find any real examples of this in the 40K fiction. Mostly their 'tactics' revolve around sending in the Astartes, or simply being bad-ass themselves.

Because they've built the Primarchs and the Astartes into unstoppable killing machines in the fluff, creating a scenario in which they are outmatched is very difficult. Thus, it's nearly impossible for us to witness the Primarch's having to think outside the square, and use their brains to get themselves out of a situation.

81Northman wrote:That would suggest that Leman Russ was jealous of his Brother taking the credit for bringing the Codex together and because of this would be the reason for not going along with it. Have I hit the nail on the head or is there more to it?

Lets look at this a different way, the defenders of the palace we all know as the Blood Angels, White Scars and The Imerial Fists aswell as Custodes and Soldiers.

The 3 Legions in Question to the Codex, Ultra Marines, Space Wolves and Dark Angels were absent through the whole seige. Given the fact that the Blood angels lost their Primarch Sanguinius.

Why then didn't one of the other Victors take the lead. Rogal Dorn I belive from fluff being like Russ towards the Codex in that he didn't like the Idea but i'll bet he still had an input into it, im mean he wasnt exactly a tactical moron was he?

Wrong. It was the imminent arrival of the combined Legions of Russ and Johnson that caused Horus to basically sh*t his pants and let the Emperor on board his ship. So while the two weren't directly present during the siege, they were instrumental in breaking it.

Russ (and Dorn) did not object to the Codex because of its wealth of tactical and logistical knowledge, but because it (and Guilliman) demanded they split up their Legions.
To a Primarch, who had been given their Legion by the Emperor as a sacred trust, this would be like giving your children away, as well as a betrayal of the Emperor's decree.
Ultimately, Russ and Dorn only didn't come to blows with the Ultramarines not because of a fear of their superior numbers, but because the fledgling Imperium had just barely survived the last civil war, and this new one so close on its heels would have killed it and everything the Emperor had worked, fought, and died for.

cough cough

Corax's Legion garnered such a fearsome reputation that Warmaster Horus requested their aid many times in his campaigns and it is thought that it was thanks to the Raven Guard's assistance that Horus's tally of victories was so high. The Raven Guard's records are curiously reticent concerning this period of history and Imperial Historians suspect that the taciturn Corax did not like the more gregarious Horus, finding him overly boastful and manipulative.

Tallies of victories doesn't mean that they were the most tactically minded.

I would say that all the a fairly decent grasp of tactics, war was what the Emperor created them for. Each was special in a certain situation.