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Well, lucky me I lost 2 to Dangerous terrain getting to the Oblits, and both failed their RP as well.

Yeesh, that's painful. Thats about 5 times as many casualties as should have happened, gotta love them dice. I had a game last weekend where 4 out of 6 Flayed Ones got eaten by a Shatter Shard and failed their RP. I cried a little inside.

I keep hoping you have a smash up game with the TPs, but your right in a DLord list it really comes down to which you prefer as a delivery system for the DLord. For some reason just justifying the cost of the RO for the DLord is enough for me. I love the idea of the unstoppable force DLord.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Well, lucky me I lost 2 to Dangerous terrain getting to the Oblits, and both failed their RP as well.

Yeesh, that's painful. Thats about 5 times as many casualties as should have happened, gotta love them dice. I had a game last weekend where 4 out of 6 Flayed Ones got eaten by a Shatter Shard and failed their RP. I cried a little inside.

I keep hoping you have a smash up game with the TPs, but your right in a DLord list it really comes down to which you prefer as a delivery system for the DLord. For some reason just justifying the cost of the RO for the DLord is enough for me. I love the idea of the unstoppable force DLord.

I haven't thrown in the towel for them yet, but they have been a bit subpar. I tend to find a lot of Plasma/Anti-tank weapons thrown at them, which is one reason why Wraiths could be better. They do eat up a lot of shots, which would otherwise be aimed for my Vehicles, which is nice.

I do really wish Praets at least had 2A base. It still upsets me that it's 1A base.

EDIT: Just figured I'd throw in, that I really love the Dlord. I don't know if I'd trade out my second CCB at 2k Points or not yet, but yeah.

My main concern with my current list, is I think I am a tad low on Anti-tank. Having a Squad of scarabs would have really made a difference that last game, as I'm sure they would have eaten the Land raider, and held up the Zerkers for a while.

The rumors for the way Assault weapons work in 6E (extra attack on the charge) make me curious as to how Praetorians will work soon. I'd really like to use some, as I love the model and the idea, but I just feel like Wraiths are better at almost everything and I doubt I'd take them in an army that is already maxed out on Fast Attack (afraid I'd have too few Troops).

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The rumors for the way Assault weapons work in 6E (extra attack on the charge) make me curious as to how Praetorians will work soon. I'd really like to use some, as I love the model and the idea, but I just feel like Wraiths are better at almost everything and I doubt I'd take them in an army that is already maxed out on Fast Attack (afraid I'd have too few Troops).

But Wraiths aren't better at almost everything...

TPs with VB and PC are distinctly better at anti vehicle.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The rumors for the way Assault weapons work in 6E (extra attack on the charge) make me curious as to how Praetorians will work soon. I'd really like to use some, as I love the model and the idea, but I just feel like Wraiths are better at almost everything and I doubt I'd take them in an army that is already maxed out on Fast Attack (afraid I'd have too few Troops).

But Wraiths aren't better at almost everything...

TPs with VB and PC are distinctly better at anti vehicle.

Hmm, they might have an edge, but I'm not sure it is a huge one. They've got Entropic Strike, but fewer attacks and lower Strength. I'd say they probably perform better against immobile or slow-moving vehicles, while Wraiths have the edge against fast-moving vehicles and against walkers.

As it is, Wraiths just feel superior, mainly due to defensive reasons - invulnerable save, multiple wounds, no risk from moving through terrain, ability to often strike first in combat, etc. I feel they are great both for disrupting/killing weak targets as well as attracting fire or tangling with tough melee combatants. Praetorians only seem suited to lurking in the sidelines and striking at targets of opportunity - something they can do quite well, but much more limited in overall use. Tossing in a destroyer lord with a res orb amps they up quite a bit - but also adds to their cost.

Myth wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Nightbringer's Chosen wrote:The rumors for the way Assault weapons work in 6E (extra attack on the charge) make me curious as to how Praetorians will work soon. I'd really like to use some, as I love the model and the idea, but I just feel like Wraiths are better at almost everything and I doubt I'd take them in an army that is already maxed out on Fast Attack (afraid I'd have too few Troops).

But Wraiths aren't better at almost everything...

TPs with VB and PC are distinctly better at anti vehicle.

Hmm, they might have an edge, but I'm not sure it is a huge one. They've got Entropic Strike, but fewer attacks and lower Strength. I'd say they probably perform better against immobile or slow-moving vehicles, while Wraiths have the edge against fast-moving vehicles and against walkers.

As it is, Wraiths just feel superior, mainly due to defensive reasons - invulnerable save, multiple wounds, no risk from moving through terrain, ability to often strike first in combat, etc. I feel they are great both for disrupting/killing weak targets as well as attracting fire or tangling with tough melee combatants. Praetorians only seem suited to lurking in the sidelines and striking at targets of opportunity - something they can do quite well, but much more limited in overall use. Tossing in a destroyer lord with a res orb amps they up quite a bit - but also adds to their cost.

The TPs also have a S6 AP5 pistol, which yes some Wraith bases might have, but not many, as generally they are left nekked or given WCs. The math is a bit involved to fully extrapolate the possibilities, but just the fact that the pistols have a decent chance of immobilising before the TPs strike benefit them significantly (5 PCs will imo or better AV10 70% of the time, AV11 37% of the time, and AV12 9% of the time). Suffice it to say, if the vehicle is imobed by the assault phase the TPs will finish it off with little difficulty.

The resiliency issue is definitely in the Wraiths favour as you said, though it's closer then most people think. TPs have a superior save against AP4 or higher (3+ and RP instead of just 3++), and an equal save against AP 3 or lower provided they have cover (3++ = 4+ and 5+) and higher toughness, so they are pretty close.

Praetorians kind of suck, but they don't suck in an altogether damning way.

I do think it's whacky how much they cost given that they are a initiative 2 and 1 attack unit that needs to be within 6-12 of an enemy before it is doing anything useful.
They will however beat the crap out of an msu unit and the horse it rode in on.

I also really like the particle casters. It feels like another attack to me, while also feeling like a reasonable anti transport measure. Especially late game when they are already flushing the other side or after deep strike deployment.

I think that what they have going best for them is sitting in a crappy slot and keeping up with the rest of our cc anti tank. I never play at point levels to warrant it, but a wraith shield on your praetorian destroyer advance seems like a great way to dominate mid field or wipe a tank and everything in it.

Praetorians are more wraiths to me. But also ones you want a destroyer lord in. The lord screws with wraith cover ignoring.

If running them with a Destroyer Lord, how many would you generally run in a unit? I want to give them a try, but don't own any yet, so don't want to buy a ton of them when smaller units are more optimal.

I tried them in three more games, and they ended up failing me for the last time.

They Did OK in the first game, as entropic strike really came in handy. the 2nd and 3rd games, they did not do well, at all. I was playing some wonky scenarios, but at the ends of the day, Wraiths are just a much better choice, and I would have preferred to have them.

Thats too bad, i really want to like and use the praetorians, even the lychguard.... They are just too point heavy :(

Aye, I too was disappointed that the Preatorians which have AWESOME fluff and look GREAT, don't live up to their potential. ALL they need it one more attack, why GW, WHY?! This may be fixed if in 6th edition they can DS THEN charge(and maybe get 2 standard attacks) The 6" range of their gun also hinders them, and while VB and PC is the better choice for them in most scenarios, it makes them OK not what their INTENDED to be. While they make good wingmen for a DL(who is awesome), so do wraiths, but better.

But there is some good news, their cousins, the lychguard ARE great, a squad of ~6 with a MSS/ord lord and warscythes for everybody can murder ANYTHING, though its pretty much all sword no shield. BUT, the shield and PS lychguard with a MSS/ord lord and warscythe has the survivability (with that handy-dandy 4++) for MSU of elites and extra attack to act as a blender to hordes(5 guard and lord vs 30 orkz = ALOT fewer orkz)

P.S. Furious charge would be an excellent rule that 6th ed should give the preatorians I think

I still think putting a destroyer with wraiths is a total waste of avoiding cover, though I'm really not sure how many points that is worth.

The more I see necromancy, the more they look like the army should be playing like one or two big multipart machines. I'm just not sure praetorians do their job very well. I can see them making excellent filler in a list with a lot os screening and full fa slots, but at the moment barges are a great reason not to look for a reason to take a destroyer king.

Hmm, maybe I should give the Praetorians a chance... too bad I just assembled 2 boxes as Lychguards

What would you guys say are a typical good matchup for Praetorians? Putting them against Terminators or Plague Marines and the likes appears a good idea to me.

Murenius wrote:Hmm, maybe I should give the Praetorians a chance... too bad I just assembled 2 boxes as Lychguards

What would you guys say are a typical good matchup for Praetorians? Putting them against Terminators or Plague Marines and the likes appears a good idea to me.

Pick up a box of warriors and use the parts from the warriors and the leftovers from the praet/lych box to make your praetorians. It's very simple and only requires the smallest amount of modification.