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Well, as promised, here's a Triarch Praetorian thread.

The Triarch Praetorian rings in at 40 points a model, you can have between 5-10 of 'em.

Strengths
- Strength and Toughness 5
- Fearless
- 12" Move with its Jumppack (Nice and quick counter assault unit)

Weaknesses
- One wound
- Expensive
- Base gun has a 6" range, counts as a powerweapon, but doesn't increase your attacks
- 1 attack base

---

I just took a unit of 5 of these bad-boys in a recent tournament. They were instramental in tabling a Space Wolves army (by turn 5). The best way to take these guys is with the Voidblade and Particle caster, this gives them a rending and entropic strike close combat weapon that's paired up with a S6 AP5 12" range pistol. I had a D-Lord with Orb going up with them.

You have to pick your battles carefully. Anything with initiative > 2 and power weapons will not be a good matchup (Well, I'd still assault Banshee's, as they'd be wounding on 6's). With the Destroyer Lord in the group, combat resolution isn't so bad, and they are fearless, so there's no chance of being swept after you lose combat by 1.

The basic gun they come with is terrible, at a 6" range, you'll almost always want to shoot, then assault. You'll kill a couple of dudes on foot, but things that you'd want to kill generally have an invul save. I'd rather sacrifice the AP for another 6" range and another close combat attack. Also, the entropic strike and rending make you a close combat threat against Tanks and Walkers. I managed to glance and immobilizes a land raider, then the Praetorians charged in with 15 entropic strike hits, knocking it down to armour 9, then they were glancing on 4's, penning on 5/6 with those 15 attacks.

The Void Blade and Particle Caster just gives them so much tactical flexibilty, while the S6 shooting attack is just so... poor, mostly due to the 1-base WS4 attack in close combat.

200 points for 5 of these guys is expensive, but when paired up with a Destroyer Lord with an Orb, you've got a guy with the unit that can take a couple of wounds (give him weave and he can take the AP3 shots). The D-Lord can also pack an Orb, and if one guy stands up on a roll of "4", that orb has paid for itself.

Is it a competitive choice? It could be. Depends on how the rest of the list looks.

Anyway, discuss :-)

Deathstar unit for 'crons I take it?

It *can* be. I don't think it'd be all that competitive to take a unit of 10 for 400 points. Although, they'd be like "super scarabs" at that point. With a D-Lord leading them, that unit would be between 575 and 590 points (Depends if you spring for a Weave or not on the D-Lord).

I think they're most competitive at an MSU size. With a D-Lord with an Orb, Weave, and Scarabs, they ring in at 390. Lots of points leftover for other threats. Also, something that causes people to react to a possible Necron assault, which might break their meta a bit.

loreweaver wrote:It *can* be. I don't think it'd be all that competitive to take a unit of 10 for 400 points. Although, they'd be like "super scarabs" at that point. With a D-Lord leading them, that unit would be between 575 and 590 points (Depends if you spring for a Weave or not on the D-Lord).

I think they're most competitive at an MSU size. With a D-Lord with an Orb, Weave, and Scarabs, they ring in at 390. Lots of points leftover for other threats. Also, something that causes people to react to a possible Necron assault, which might break their meta a bit.

Good posts. If your going to go D-star with them I think you have to screen them with TB's (with shadowlooms) and bring Nemesor to give them stealth. Then you got a phalanx of 2+/3+ cover saves charging head long into some fancy times for your enemy.

Good thread lore , much better than the other ones you've made lol.

I dont think they're bad but no invul save is scary stuff, but you're right with the lord and his 2+ invul with the weave, there certainly is the survivability , let alone that res orb is a must for such an expensive unit.

I do have 1 general question, since I've never used an army with pistols (I've Nids and Crons almost entirely) , do the 2 attacks they get in CC w/ caster and voidblade all get resolved with str 5 and the entropic strike / rending rule, or just 1 attack at str 5 w/ entropic strike & rending, and the other the str 6 pistol shot? I know, dumb newbie question lol.

If it's the former, they are a pretty good unit! I just wouldnt chase anything down that has force weapons (damn grey knights! haha).

The pistol just adds +1 attack to the primary hand weapon, which in this case would have the entropic and rending special rule.

My issue is, why take Praetorians, when you can take Wraiths? They just seem so much better.

Wraiths are fantastic.

For the same price as a wraith with a particle caster, you get

-1 W
+1 T
Entropic Strike
Resurrection Protocols
Same save, although not invul
-1 S
-1 Attack

--

Overall, it's different. With the D-Lord, you're effectively 3+/4++

With entropic strike, you have more tactical options against vehicles. (Likely to pen AV 14 for the Praetorians, Unlikely to pen with the Wraiths)

--

That said, I like both units. Whip coils add some nifty options to the wraiths, but that adds cost too.

loreweaver wrote:Wraiths are fantastic.

For the same price as a wraith with a particle caster, you get

-1 W
+1 T
Entropic Strike
Resurrection Protocols
Same save, although not invul
-1 S
-1 Attack

--

Overall, it's different. With the D-Lord, you're effectively 3+/4++

With entropic strike, you have more tactical options against vehicles. (Likely to pen AV 14 for the Praetorians, Unlikely to pen with the Wraiths)

--

That said, I like both units. Whip coils add some nifty options to the wraiths, but that adds cost too.

The Praetorians do not bring enough to the table, to justify them over wraiths though. Entropic strike is really only going to make a difference on vehicles that are not rear AV 10, since both wraiths and Pratorians will pen very easy, with the Wraiths getting more attacks on the charge, and the advantage of strength 6.

Praetorians are just not good enough at anything, and adding a Dlord for them to have an Orb just escalates the cost. Wraiths don't need a Dlord, and can do most things better, and some significantly better than the Praetorians. Yes, they do end up a bit more expensive with a few whipcoils, but what you get for the points is just so much more.

I mean, really, In the view of an Entire army, why would you take Praetorians over Wraiths? I try to have as much redundancy, and multifunctional units as I can. Wraiths fill that role much better than Praetorians, and for the points cost of Praetorians, there are better things to fill their roles, for cheaper.

The thing to remember though is that wraiths and praetorians don't compete for a slot. Praetorians with a D-lord complement wraiths very well. The wraiths can provide cover for them and mess up just about anything in melee, while the praetorians go for MC's, IC's and heavily armored vehicles/walkers. Entropic strike + rending makes them VERY deadly against IC's and MC's. One rending hit permanently removes their armor saves.

I'd still be tempted to take a double-D-Lord army, one going up with some Praetorians, the other with Wraiths.

You can take 3 squads of wraiths and a squad of praetorians (as hinted by Nate668)

Or, much more likely, A squad of Praetorians, a squad of Wriaths, a squad of scarabs, and some Tomb Blades (or more wraiths, or more Scarabs).

Sasori wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Wraiths are fantastic.

For the same price as a wraith with a particle caster, you get

-1 W
+1 T
Entropic Strike
Resurrection Protocols
Same save, although not invul
-1 S
-1 Attack

--

Overall, it's different. With the D-Lord, you're effectively 3+/4++

With entropic strike, you have more tactical options against vehicles. (Likely to pen AV 14 for the Praetorians, Unlikely to pen with the Wraiths)

--

That said, I like both units. Whip coils add some nifty options to the wraiths, but that adds cost too.

The Praetorians do not bring enough to the table, to justify them over wraiths though. Entropic strike is really only going to make a difference on vehicles that are not rear AV 10, since both wraiths and Pratorians will pen very easy, with the Wraiths getting more attacks on the charge, and the advantage of strength 6.

Praetorians are just not good enough at anything, and adding a Dlord for them to have an Orb just escalates the cost. Wraiths don't need a Dlord, and can do most things better, and some significantly better than the Praetorians. Yes, they do end up a bit more expensive with a few whipcoils, but what you get for the points is just so much more.

I mean, really, In the view of an Entire army, why would you take Praetorians over Wraiths? I try to have as much redundancy, and multifunctional units as I can. Wraiths fill that role much better than Praetorians, and for the points cost of Praetorians, there are better things to fill their roles, for cheaper.

The Preatorians score better against vehicles, and really by a long shot. Praets will get about 6 or more penetrating hits against AV 10 rear. Wraiths will get about 3 or more. (assuming 5 in each group, and vehicle moving at cruising speed). Also the Preats will immobilise or better AV 11 with just their pistols 37% of the time.

In terms of survivability it's really really close. Wraiths obviously have more wounds, but that advantage can be removed by ID, where as the Praets survivability mechanics (higher toughness, RP etc) can only be slightly nerfed by poison (well, obviously S7+ laughs at T5 and T4 equally, but T8+ is a big disadvantage for the wraiths).

The FAQ also nerfed the whip-coils a bit, although they are still a solid choice.

But the more I've looked at the advantage over vehicles, the more I've come to love the PC/VB Praets. Paired with a DLord with a WS they really are a Vehicle munching nightmare, without the weaknesses of the scarabs.

Praetorians will also perform better against Walkers than Wraiths.

A Dreadnaught with his two attacks will kill a Praetorian, who gets an RP roll, the 4 remaining will get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 entropics (bringing the front down to 9), then on the remaining 6 hits, likely score a glance (4) and two pens (5+). Then the Praetorian gets shot at reanimation.

The wraiths (say 5) have a chance of losing a member due to being instant-deathed by the dreadnaught, lest say they live. 20 attacks, 10 hits, 1-2 pens (Penning on a 6)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets say the worst happens and the dreadnaught lives. The entropics have permanently crippled the dread, but the wraiths still pen on a 6.

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for posting Lore.

It's really looking like 6 of one, half-dozen of another; they are nearly equivalent. I may try a unit of Praetorians in my escalation army. Praetorians may be more forgiving for new players as positioning matters less.

Another thing, if rumors about 6th are true we may be capped at percentages for our FOC... Wraith Wing at 1850 runs about 35% of its points in the FA slot. The ability to spread some of those points to the under-used elite section may benefit us in the future.

Alright, Lore and Shadar, You've convinced me enough that i think I'll give them another chance. I have six of the suckers, so I really have nothing to lose. I'll try them in the Voidblade and Pistol configuration.

They haven't preformed that well in the tabletop so far for me, but I'm always open to try them again.

I'm getting a game in tonight with someone new, so this seems like an Opportune time to bring them. I'll report back after the game.

I think if praetorians go hunting for squads like longfangs they can yield fairly good results with their higher toughness and decent armor save....

I may actually buy some praetorians one day...

Sasori wrote:Alright, Lore and Shadar, You've convinced me enough that i think I'll give them another chance. I have six of the suckers, so I really have nothing to lose. I'll try them in the Voidblade and Pistol configuration.

They haven't preformed that well in the tabletop so far for me, but I'm always open to try them again.

I'm getting a game in tonight with someone new, so this seems like an Opportune time to bring them. I'll report back after the game.

Remember, just dont fight power weapons

Good luck tonight man, let us know how it works out!

Sasori wrote:

loreweaver wrote:Wraiths are fantastic.

For the same price as a wraith with a particle caster, you get

-1 W
+1 T
Entropic Strike
Resurrection Protocols
Same save, although not invul
-1 S
-1 Attack

--

Overall, it's different. With the D-Lord, you're effectively 3+/4++

With entropic strike, you have more tactical options against vehicles. (Likely to pen AV 14 for the Praetorians, Unlikely to pen with the Wraiths)

--

That said, I like both units. Whip coils add some nifty options to the wraiths, but that adds cost too.

The Praetorians do not bring enough to the table, to justify them over wraiths though. Entropic strike is really only going to make a difference on vehicles that are not rear AV 10, since both wraiths and Pratorians will pen very easy, with the Wraiths getting more attacks on the charge, and the advantage of strength 6.

Praetorians are just not good enough at anything, and adding a Dlord for them to have an Orb just escalates the cost. Wraiths don't need a Dlord, and can do most things better, and some significantly better than the Praetorians. Yes, they do end up a bit more expensive with a few whipcoils, but what you get for the points is just so much more.

I mean, really, In the view of an Entire army, why would you take Praetorians over Wraiths? I try to have as much redundancy, and multifunctional units as I can. Wraiths fill that role much better than Praetorians, and for the points cost of Praetorians, there are better things to fill their roles, for cheaper.

In the words of that girl from the taco shell commercial: "can't we have both?"

I take Praetorians because in my list, I have three squads of Wraiths already, and I want another fast unit on the field. Plus, their survivability is increased with a Destroyer Lord w/ Res Orb. With each hit, they increase their chance to penetrate vehicles, and any wounds taken on, say, a paladin squad takes away their armor save. To me, VB and PC Praetorians are leagues ahead of RoC Praetorians, and are a decent addition to any army looking to get in close with the enemy. Heck, they can even replace scarabs with their VBs. I was hesitant to take them at first, but after careful consideration (and finally figuring out what I want in my list), I decided that these Triarch mooks are better for me. That is, until 6th, when I can drop a Monolith into the game and have my WS Lychguard Alpha Strike an engaged unit.

You do need some care when assaulting things. Only power weapon squad I'd go after would be banshees, because they wound on 6's.

With a Destroyer Lord with a Weave, he can take the Krak missle hit and get his 2+ save, allowing you to close the gap on a long fang unit. I'd also assume that you could advance with some sort of cover save :-p

Alright, they went up against Tyranids last night, which was a badmatchup for Praetorians.

They really didn't do much, as just about anything they could assault was a death sentence. I had to end up sending them against a Winged Tyrant, who had one wound left, to stop it from rampaging in my lines. They weren't able to to cause the last wound, but they did hold it up through his assault phase, and I was able to blow it apart from a Abarge.

I'll give them another chance or two, as I feel that match really couldn't portray them that well. I want to see the merits of the unit itself, before attaching a Dlord, because at that point I would feel I'm spending too many points to make the unit useful.

How many dudes do you have in the unit? 6?

One option would be to deep strike them.

Edit: When I played against Tyranids, I charged a unit of warriors. 2 Praetorians ate bonesword death, then killed a warrior and stripped a save from another. Don't forget the entropic strike! If you can get them over to some Hive Guard, they'll perform reasonably well. (As they can strip the armour save and would get their armour save).

loreweaver wrote:How many dudes do you have in the unit? 6?

One option would be to deep strike them.

Edit: When I played against Tyranids, I charged a unit of warriors. 2 Praetorians ate bonesword death, then killed a warrior and stripped a save from another. Don't forget the entropic strike! If you can get them over to some Hive Guard, they'll perform reasonably well. (As they can strip the armour save and would get their armour save).

I had 5, with the VB and PC. I didn't forget any of the special abilities they had, lol. There were just not any good targets, that they would do well against. The Dlord would have made a huge difference, but I feel that *Having* to purchase him to make the unit viable is a waste.

As I said before, I'll try them a few more times, as I felt (I play Nids a well) That it was not a good matchup to test their mettle. I had only used them as VB and PC once before this, and used the RoC the most, as that was how they were built. Since most people are saying that VB and PC are the superior configuration, I'll run it a few more times.

Sasori wrote:Alright, they went up against Tyranids last night, which was a badmatchup for Praetorians.

They really didn't do much, as just about anything they could assault was a death sentence. I had to end up sending them against a Winged Tyrant, who had one wound left, to stop it from rampaging in my lines. They weren't able to to cause the last wound, but they did hold it up through his assault phase, and I was able to blow it apart from a Abarge.

I'll give them another chance or two, as I feel that match really couldn't portray them that well. I want to see the merits of the unit itself, before attaching a Dlord, because at that point I would feel I'm spending too many points to make the unit useful.

Yeah nids probably aren't the best matchup, too bad they couldn't get the last wound off.

I definitely understand your point about the Dlord, but what I found after a few games is the sum is more then the parts. The Dlord is better because of the Praets and vice versa they get both survivability and killing power from each other. Just one Preat with a DLord can open a transport a turn, against rear armor 10 if just one entropic strike hits (gets it 4+) the DLord is penning on a 3+, or about 97.22% percent of his hits. Pretty nasty.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:

loreweaver wrote:How many dudes do you have in the unit? 6?

One option would be to deep strike them.

Edit: When I played against Tyranids, I charged a unit of warriors. 2 Praetorians ate bonesword death, then killed a warrior and stripped a save from another. Don't forget the entropic strike! If you can get them over to some Hive Guard, they'll perform reasonably well. (As they can strip the armour save and would get their armour save).

I had 5, with the VB and PC. I didn't forget any of the special abilities they had, lol. There were just not any good targets, that they would do well against. The Dlord would have made a huge difference, but I feel that *Having* to purchase him to make the unit viable is a waste.

As I said before, I'll try them a few more times, as I felt (I play Nids a well) That it was not a good matchup to test their mettle. I had only used them as VB and PC once before this, and used the RoC the most, as that was how they were built. Since most people are saying that VB and PC are the superior configuration, I'll run it a few more times.

Right on, Happy Hunting. Don't shelve them until you run them against a meched up list with the DLord though, it really is their time to shine.

Once the unit of D-Lord & Praetorians are delivered down the field, they can split up and assault more than one unit. The D-Lord is beastly against most targets, with a 2+ (or 3+) save, Mindshackle Scarabs, and Preferred Enemy (Everything!)...

The Praetorians can then beat-up on a squishier target of opportunity (Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Hive Guard, a Tervigon... ???)

As many have said, praetorians are better versus vehicles than Wraiths. Also, against targets with mass attacks, like orks, the praetorians are tougher. The t5 cuts the wounds in half, which lets you win combat easier, and 2 attacks at s5 deal .667 expected wounds compared to the wraiths 1.25 wounds. You also get resurrection protocol.

When you factor in the destroyer lord, while he is good in both Wraith and Praetorian units, the res orb only benefits Praetorians, and if you take multiple wraith units you dont have enough dlords to put in each wraith unit anyway, making some wraiths missile bait anyway.

DevianID wrote:As many have said, praetorians are better versus vehicles than Wraiths. Also, against targets with mass attacks, like orks, the praetorians are tougher. The t5 cuts the wounds in half.

That's only true against S3 (1/3 to 1/6). Against S4, the wounds are only reduced to two-thirds what they would be at T4.

I'm going to analyze durability as best I can. The Praetorians have the following failed save probabilities:

Save+RP=(2/9)
Save+RO=(1/6)
Cover+RP=(1/3)
Cover+RO=(1/4)
RP=(2/3)
RO=(1/2)

Against S3, the Wraiths will take twice as many wounds as the Praetorians, so anywhere the Praetorians' save is better (e.g. Save+RP - should apply to most S3 shooting), they are more durable. Against S4, the Wraiths will only be taking 3/2 the number of wounds that the Praetorians are taking, so the Praetorians' failed save probability must be 2/3 that of the Wraiths for them to be equally durable. Notice that Save+RP fits this criterion, so that Wraiths and Praetorians are actually equally durable against bolter fire in the absence of a Res Orb. Against S7 shooting, the wound probabilites are the same, so the only way for Praetorians to be as durable as Wraiths is if (Save+RO) applies (e.g. autocannons). This means that Wraiths are ever so slightly more durable against Psycannons, and much more durable against Plasma weapons. Against S8, AP3, the Wraiths obviously take a nosedive, and become equally durable as RP Praetorians in cover, and less durable than RO Praetorians in cover. Against S8, AP4 (e.g. psyfledreads), the Praetorians are more durable. If AP3 / AP2 weapons get clear shots at the Praetorians, they stink.

This is all obviously modulo wound allocation shenanigans, which favor the Wraiths (although the Preatorians do gain more from having a 2+ model in the squad).

Wraiths also have the obvious durability advantage against Rending / Power Weapon enemies in Assault.

Now, onto offensive capabilities. The Wraiths can take Particle Casters, which boost them to exactly the same price as the Praetorians. I'm going to say that the Wraiths are superior across the board at assaulting infantry. The extra strength, attacks, and wounds mean that fewer of them will die and more of the enemy will die for each one left alive. Reanimation protocols is nice for the shooting phase, but it doesn't help you do damage to an enemy that strikes before you. To add insult to injury, the Wraiths ignore Terrain. Which is nice for Power Fists I guess but, meh, I2 is I2. Their shooting can be basically equivalent, so that's a wash.

So, the only reason you'd really take the Praetorians is for Entropic Strike. Specifically, for multi-assaulting and debuffing parking lots, killing Dreadnoughts, and killing AV14. 200 points is too much to pay for running around killing Razorbacks. The problem is that Scarabs do exactly this and do it better, except for durability (one squad of 5 Interceptors with an Incinerator can easily wipe a unit of Scarabs). So, I guess if your Scarabs keep dying, or you want two Entropic Strike threats that require different counters, then Praetorians are the squad for you.

I haven't seen Praetorians in action on the tabletop, so I don't really have anything useful to contribute beyond theoryhammer that has been covered by others already. They seem worthwhile in the right list with the particle caster/void blade combo, but the Necron players near me have yet to try them.

I just wanted to say thank you, loreweaver, for listening to those who posted about the content of your threads. This thread presents itself better and the analysis showcases the fact that you do, indeed, know what you're talking about. Two giant thumbs up!

Neutron Poison, one small thing I`d like to add to your analysis is the possibility of Wraiths being instant-killed by S8+ shooting. They`ll get a save, but you`ll lose a whole wraith, as where a Praetorian will still get his RP roll on top of a cover save (should one apply).

Good post NeutronPoison.

loreweaver wrote:Neutron Poison, one small thing I`d like to add to your analysis is the possibility of Wraiths being instant-killed by S8+ shooting. They`ll get a save, but you`ll lose a whole wraith, as where a Praetorian will still get his RP roll on top of a cover save (should one apply).

I already included it, although I wasn't very clear about it.

NeutronPoison wrote:Against S8, AP3, the Wraiths obviously take a nosedive, and become equally durable as RP Praetorians in cover, and less durable than RO Praetorians in cover. Against S8, AP4 (e.g. psyfledreads), the Praetorians are more durable. If AP3 / AP2 weapons get clear shots at the Praetorians, they stink.

These two sentences are already taking into account Instant Death. 4++/5++ (cover/RP) and 3++ are exactly equivalent. Thus, the probability of losing a Praetorian in cover to a Missile Launcher and the probability of losing a Wraith the a Missile Launcher are the same, even including the effects of Instant Death. If the Praetorians are not in cover, the probability of losing one of them to a Missile is twice that of losing one of the Wraiths to a missile, Instant Death notwithstanding.

Honestly, the big thing I was leaving out is that a lot of these durability calculations are BS if the enemy can concentrate enough fire on the Praetorians to wipe them – Wraiths are actually more resistant, relatively speaking, to an army-wide attempt to focus them down than Praetorians are. Personally, I would only shoot at a unit of Praetorians if I thought I could wipe it.

ShadarLogoth: Thanks!

Alright, bringing this thread back up again.

Played another game using the Praets this time, with a Dlord, and went up against CSM army. In a sense, it was a good Matchup for me, as he is heavy into PMs, which I think are pretty tough to kill with my current list, so I was pretty excited to play, what I felt was kind of a "Hard Counter" to my list.

This list I used is the following, It's a Fun style list, that I'm tuning a bit for a Tourney.

1 Overlord, 180 pts Warscythe
1 Catacomb Command Barge Gauss Cannon

Court
1 Harbinger of Destruction
1 Harbinger of Destruction Solar Pulse
1 Harbinger of Destruction
1 Harbinger of Destruction
1 Harbinger of Despair Abyssal Staff; Veil of Darknes


1 Destroyer Lord Warscythe; Sempiternal Weave; Mindshackle Scarabs; Resurrection Orb

5 Deathmarks,

5 Triarch Praetorians Voidblade; Particle Caster

10 Immortals Tesla Carbine

10 Immortals Tesla Carbine

1 Annihilation Barge Gauss Cannon
1 Annihilation Barge Gauss Cannon
1 Annihilation Barge Gauss Cannon

Dlord goes with the Praets of course, and 1 lancetek in each Immortal unit, with two of them to sit by themselves.


His, was, 3 Rhinos chockfull of PMs, with two meltaguns each. 2x2 Oblits, and a Land Raider with Kharn and a bunch of Berzerkers. Not the most tuned list, but it's pretty tough.

Anyway, I had planned to use these guys to cut open the rhinos, as I knew they could survive an assault from the Plague marines. However, I managed to pop two of the Rhinos on the 1st turn, with 2 of the Abarges. I got really lucky there. So, I decided to send them after The Oblits. Well, lucky me I lost 2 to Dangerous terrain getting to the Oblits, and both failed their RP as well. The Oblits passed their MSS test, but the Destroyer Lord wrecked them. Over the course of the rest of the game, they ate Another squad of Oblits, and a Squad of Plague marines, while contesting his objective at the end. Not bad, but it was really the Dlord that did everything. I didn't go for the Landraider, since I knew the Zerkers would eat that squad as soon as they got out.

Overall, in this case, Wraiths probably would have been better again. They didn't eat any vehicles, but I got really lucky first turn. The Destroyer Lord just flat out wrecked stuff

MVPs of the game, were the Deathmarks though. After the Zerkers ate one of my squad of Immortals, I made a risky DS choice and it paid off. With HfH, after the Template and Rapidfire from the Deathmarks, Kharn was only left with one wound, which the Nearby Tesla Immortals promptly finished off. That was really the turning point of the game, if that hadn't happened, I'd probably would have lost, or at the very least tied. As it was, all he had left was 3 Plague marines by the end of the game.