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Eldenfirefly wrote:Lightning claws are 30 points base, and adding just one attack (mark of khorne) was another 10 points. And considering that if this was all combined together, it would probably be worth more, then warptime would have been at least 40 points base.

A model with 4 attacks needing 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound will kill approximately 1.7 models per turn.

A model with WT (rerolls, old rule) will kill 2.89 models per turn (LD 10, ignoring all anti-psyker abilities). (22.3 points per kill)
A model with MoK (+1 attack) will kill 2.2 models per turn. (22.5 ppk)
A model with LC (reroll wounds, +1 attack) will kill 2.9 models per turn. (25.3 ppk)
A model with LC + MOK (reroll wounds, +2 attacks) will kill 3.5 models per turn (22.5 ppk)

If you reduce it to 2+ to wound MoK becomes even better (18 ppk for MoK vs. 29.2 ppk for WT).

Wow, I guess I should have been using MoK for my daemon princes all along. It's a better value than Warptime (and no perils of the warp to worry about!)

DevianID wrote:Since some, like you Biccat, disagreed with the underlined flowchart in the rulebook demonstrating that Falchions do get +2 attacks total, RAI could hopefully kick in.

The flowchart wasn't without its problems, and I stand by my analysis of the rules at the time. If anyone wants to revisit that debate they can visit the YMDC forum.

And as subsequent FAQs has shown, RAI isn't always clearly evidenced by the rules.

There are plenty of cases where GW has "changed the rules" in a FAQ. Falchions was not one of them.

I'm an experienced player but a noob to 5th.

My issue is how they have gone about this really.

Warptime:
The rule says : "The psycher may rerolll all rolls to hit and rolls to wound"
I interpreted this to mean only the misses. Why would you re-roll successful attacks? But it does say ALL, so i think this is a legitimimate clear up as a faq.
But it does make it an overpriced power now IMO, you would have to get very bad rolls to use it, so you might use it one time in 3. But you have to activate it at the start of the turn. Risking a wound for a power you might not use is not something I would be happy with.

Lash of Submission:
Stating it is a PSA in a FAQ is reasonable, if you are "using this psychic power in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon" then its a PSA.
Stating that it need to roll to hit is not a clear up though to me, its a rule change. Rle changes arent a FAQ issue, its an errata issue. OK, its a minor point maybe, but that sort of thing really bugs me.

TL;DR
Warptime is now rubbish, dont bother with it unless you are expecting to fight something you are hitting or wounding on 6s (fast moving vehicles maybe?)

LoS is still good, rolling to hit sucks (maybe this is a good use for warptime?) but if you werent using it as a PSA before you were pretty much cheating, even if you didnt mean to.

The effect this will have on Lash + Obliterator builds is minimal.

Most of the time Lash is used to clump units for Obliterators, Vindicators, and other shooting. That will
still work the same. It just fails on a roll of 1 now.

You can still tactically use Lash to move enemy units into a better position for a variety of reasons.

Lash sorcerers are not worth taking now, but Lash Daemon Prince's are still solid.

The Warptime nerf was a poor move on GW's part. It basically got rid of that option as a competitive choice.
What they did is cookie cutter the codex even further into 1 competitive build. They should have thought it
threw some more, but it is what it is.

Chaos Space Marines are still a competitive codex at this point. Just slightly worse, but very playable.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its was probably intentional because warptime was just too good. Seriously, for 25 points, it was under costed. To achieve the same kind of boost to combat effect as warptime, you would have had to pay more than just 25 points.

Nemesis Greatsword = 25 pts and has re-roll failed to hits, to wound and armour pens...so how was Warptime undercosted when another MC has an identical weapon for the same price?

Now if we want to get down and dirty the Dreadknight gets expensive wings a.k.a. teleporter, but it does have the ability to shunt (worth 55 more points then wings?). So if they had really wanted to balance the two they could have increased the cost of the wings a bit, but instead they decided to nerf warptime. Now I can understand this if they think we're all running 1k sons and our Aspiring Sorc's are beasts in melee, but alas we rarely run them :(

===edited for horrid grammer===

GreyChaos wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its was probably intentional because warptime was just too good. Seriously, for 25 points, it was under costed. To achieve the same kind of boost to combat effect as warptime, you would have had to pay more than just 25 points.

Nemesis Greatsword = 25 pts and has re-roll failed to hits, to wound and armour pens...so how was Warptime undercosted when another MC has an identical weapon for the same price?

Now if we want to get down and dirty the Dreadknight gets expensive wings a.k.a. teleporter, but it does have the ability to shunt (worth 55 more points then wings?).

Warptime didn't have the ability to re-roll armor pens, so the NG is a slight bit better
I'd pay the extra 55p for a shunting prince, for shenanigans more than actual competitiveness/killy power

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its was probably intentional because warptime was just too good. Seriously, for 25 points, it was under costed. To achieve the same kind of boost to combat effect as warptime, you would have had to pay more than just 25 points.

You really need to read some codexes once in a while. There are many models and units that can do just that.

Do you know if you put a Chaplain in with a squad of Death Company not only does the Chaplian get to re-roll to hit and to wound, but the whole squad does? And do you know what? They get this ability for free, and they do not even have to pass a psychic test which can be blocked can nullified.


What this does is kill every non-Slaneesh psycher. I liked playing Tzeentch armies (as you can see by my avatar) and now without warptime sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers are not very good.

GreyChaos wrote:

Nemesis Greatsword = 25 pts and has re-roll failed to hits, to wound and armour pens...so how was Warptime undercosted when another MC has an identical weapon for the same price?

You forgot that Dreadknight loses one attack when taking Greatsword. So the price is definitely not "same".

This is quite upsetting, its an older codex and warptime isn't nearly as good as people say it can be. I've still failed many warptime rolls, suffered perils. I recently have been getting blocked by Psychic hoods, and Shadows of the warp...

Chaplains getting this without a psychic test is stupid, as well as the Nemesis sword. It's a DEMON PRINCE, highly ascended being of raw power, and now he's going to be hitting and missing as often as your average SM HQ.

Well, tbh, it's not a huge deal for me, but it does make my sorcerer that little less good.
A pity really; I guess my ol' Iron Warriors will be waiting for 6th Ed to come out and play in any real competitive context.

biccat wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:it wouldn't be the first time GW rules against their own rules. Falchions anyone?

The Falchions ruling was correct RAW. People didn't like the RAW of Falchions because it would make them suck and no one would take them. That, however, isn't a good rules argument.

Ailaros wrote:Its points cost is now correctly balanced.

No, the point cost is not correctly balanced. In fact, it's so far from balanced that there's no reason to take the power.

Can you please explain to me how the RAW /AI falchion clarification makes them suk? I am so confused. So you have a grey knights terminator with 3 basic attacks and a storm bolter now. Add in the banner for a base of 4 attacks, you now have a terminator with 5 str 5 attacks on the charge, im so confused how that sucks? (unless the reason is simply because "T.T I wanted to get 6 attacks on the charge meeeeeeeeeh"

Another nail in the coffin? Not really. Chaos Space Marines have been dead for a long time, competitively speaking.

At least now I have only 3 powers to consider for my Sorcerers... sigh.

it sucks because you have to pay for the Falchions, they are more expensive then Halberds and Daemonhammers. Then you have the opprotunity cost of not having a 4+ invuln in CC.

having 3 base I6 FW attacks(banner and Halberd) or 3 base I1 Str8 FW attacks or 3 base I4 FW and a 4+ invuln, all for the low low cost of Free, is far superior to paying 5 pts for 4 base I4 Str4 FW attacks.

Higher inititive is better because you can kill the enemy before he kills you, having Str8 is better because you will wound on 2s/be able to threaten vehicles, and having a 4+ invuln makes you survive longer.


+1A(the fact its a force weapon is irrelevent because all of the competition is also a force weapon) for 5 pts is way too expensive.

The Falchion benifits ONLY that one additional attack. halberds, Daemonhammers, and Swords all benifit the entirety of the model with the weapon.


With the proper RaW(Pair=2, all NFWs=CCWs, therefore pair of NFWs=2CCWs) Falchions were worth it. 2 additional attacks made the Falchion a competitive choice with Halberds, Daemonhammers, and Swords. the cost was worth the lower inititive, poorer Str, and poorer invuln.

Mark of Khorne is 10pts and add +1A
Attack Squig adds +1A and costs 10-15pts?

5pts ? whine more please your a Grey Knight, your terminators blow the balls off of any terminator in 40k by a lot.

EDIT:

Played my first game without using Warptime, a generic dreadnaught almost beat my demon prince 1on1 combat. I failed to hit most of the time, and rolling pens was so painful. 3 rounds of combat and I emerged "victorious" with 1 wound left. My 2nd lash prince was being beaten on by tactical marines because he was killing on 1 or 2 of them a turn opposed to 5 usually.

Next I try the Khorne prince... then next I try MoT/Chaos Spawns!

Grey Templar wrote:it sucks because you have to pay for the Falchions, they are more expensive then Halberds and Daemonhammers. Then you have the opprotunity cost of not having a 4+ invuln in CC.

having 3 base I6 FW attacks(banner and Halberd) or 3 base I1 Str8 FW attacks or 3 base I4 FW and a 4+ invuln, all for the low low cost of Free, is far superior to paying 5 pts for 4 base I4 Str4 FW attacks.

Higher inititive is better because you can kill the enemy before he kills you, having Str8 is better because you will wound on 2s/be able to threaten vehicles, and having a 4+ invuln makes you survive longer.


+1A(the fact its a force weapon is irrelevent because all of the competition is also a force weapon) for 5 pts is way too expensive.

The Falchion benifits ONLY that one additional attack. halberds, Daemonhammers, and Swords all benifit the entirety of the model with the weapon.


With the proper RaW(Pair=2, all NFWs=CCWs, therefore pair of NFWs=2CCWs) Falchions were worth it. 2 additional attacks made the Falchion a competitive choice with Halberds, Daemonhammers, and Swords. the cost was worth the lower inititive, poorer Str, and poorer invuln.

Sir, while I certainly respect the experience you hold (seeing as you have like what 13000+ posts) I must disagree here. How can you justify allowing a 5 point upgrade on a model, that gives it 2 extra attacks that cause ID and can easily be strength 5 if not greater? And they are power weapons? And the unit he is in can buy a banner to give him ANOTHER attack base? And it STILL gets the extra attack from charging?!!! No I think in light of what the army is capable of doing, the 1 extra attack on a terminator is plenty for only 5 points.

Let me add this all up again. A 10 man squad of terminators with falchions and banner on the charge, and heck lets throw in the libby for feces and laughter.

That would come out to a total of (just the termies attacks mind you) 45 ws 4, str 6 attacks at an EASY init 10!!!! How does that suck? Now if you were mean those could be str 5 ID causing wounds. That's plain ridiculous.

And my ultimate point here Grey, was that with what other options you have in that codex, the 5 point upgrade for falchions is FAR from overpriced, and the ruling by GW on them was FAR from silly

Even with the old interpretation, I wasn't guaranteed to inflict 5 wounds on the charge. Now it's entirely not worth taking for Nurgle.

Just gotta wait the year out at this point. New codex 2012!

Falchions are nothing "unique" or in their ruling.
Eldar Powerblades have been around with same rules and only +1 to attacks. Giving Falchions +2 attacks would actually mean inconsistency in GW ruling.
However I was a bit surprised they didn't give them additional attack. Because, you know - SPACE MARINES! Exactly like LoS vs JotWW and BL.

Macok wrote:Falchions are nothing "unique" or in their ruling.
Eldar Powerblades have been around with same rules and only +1 to attacks. Giving Falchions +2 attacks would actually mean inconsistency in GW ruling.
However I was a bit surprised they didn't give them additional attack. Because, you know - SPACE MARINES! Exactly like LoS vs JotWW and BL.

CSM Players: So this codex is boring, but at least there's a couple powerful things here! I'm even managing to beat all the new loyalist armies!

GW: WHAT!? NO! You cannot beat our spess mahreens!!! You must play the imperium or LOSE! Must... Nerf... CHAOS!!!! AHHHH!!!!

CSM Players: Why!? Eh, fine. C'mere Blood angels...

Well, either warptime (as most of us were playing it) was undercosted, or Mark of Khorne was overcosted. Be honest, a Khorne DP was a lousier fighter than a generic DP with waprtime. How did that make sense?

Anyway, warptime is now useless. I hope they come up with a totally new list of powers in the new codex. psychic powers are supposed to help. The fact that you could reroll everything and end up with a worse result and you have to pay for such a power is ridiculous. I rather they make warptime reroll failed hits and wounds and increase the cost if they really want to balance it more.

Blackmoor wrote:

Do you know if you put a Chaplain in with a squad of Death Company not only does the Chaplian get to re-roll to hit and to wound, but the whole squad does?

The Chaplain doesn't get to re-roll to-wound rolls, just the DC.

A Chaplain by himself has totally weak stats. If it weren't for that particular power that enables the squad to reroll, you think he would be worth 100 points?

IDK, 100 points for power attacks and a 4+ invuln seems like a bargain to me. And thats without any upgrades.

And the BA can take a command squad for their Reclusiarchs too.

A captain is 100p and has a 4++, no P.weap but a better profile, and access to better weaps like claws and relic blades. A libby is 100p for same profile, but psychic powers+defence, and comes with a force weapon. The chaplain is well priced, but he needs to charge in with a CC squad to get good mileage out of him. A libby can cast null zone in a LR and let TH/SS terms do their business.

My experience as of the last few games has left me questioning now why I bring demon princes. Especially when a lot of my opponents have been tyranids, rerolling 1's and fails to wound w/ toxic sacs. I don't see why people are so preachy about warptime being overpriced. Nids reroll misses w/ scything talons and as long as toughness is equal to strength ( usually is for MC's) then you reroll failed wounds, and there's no psyker test required.

I hope they also come out with a new list of power, from here on in it might just have to be Nurgle Lords or something because Khorne Princes arn't very threatening.

I'm wondering if Demon Weapon Lords might make a comeback... the Nurgle one seems sort of useful.

Seems like everyone immediately tries to kill princes when you field them anyway. I think I just need to resculpt my sorceror to have wings and try out gift spamming. This should probably all be taken with a grain of salt, as I do not even remotely fancy myself as a "pro" player, but my Khorne lord with bloodfeeder is quite respectable as long as you keep him out of long range combat and don't mind 2d6 attacks with an occassional backlash. I usually run him with berzerkers in a rhino to great effect, but you may have to ask the dark gods for help if the enemy survives that super nasty alpha strike. I have lost the game to orcs because of bad rolls, even in very low point games (though my berzerkers do not seem to last long against ANY horde unit), but against MEQ he can really cut them low fast for a fairly cheap HQ. I always play my army in a high risk/reward style, and just try to have fun with it. I'm also the sort of person that enjoys chaos spawn and dreadnoughts, though. Warp time being interpreted so poorly is a big hit to princes, but not so much for force weapons, even though at 25 pts it does seem overpriced. Anyone running a terminator sorcerer able to give me some input on survivability?

Demon Weapon Lords will make a come back when the codex is updated. I've lost a few crucial combats because I simply rolled a 1. I find them fairly expensive for having such a high risk, I won't point out any other neighboring codex's HQ's but I'd like to see maybe a demon weapons price reduced because it can end up shaving off some points of your lord because you smacked yourself in the face, that cost never seems to be considered.

The main thing that jerks my chain is that the GK Demonblade is better than most of the Chaos ones!

It has 2 abilities, is cheaper, and can't rebel. It's not a power weapon, yeah, but still there are a lot of cool results on the table.

Best I've done with a daemon weapon is i roll a 11 on turn 2. I charged 8 terminators and a librarian and killed them all with the Khorne Lord. The other 10 CSM I had with him just watched as he slaughtered them

Other games..well i whiff my rolls and the lord dies to a powerklaw before he can do anything xD

Like I said, my experience with the Khorne lord is all or nothing. You gotta admit that gamble is fun, though, because when it pays off it usually has wonderful results. And yeah, I'm also hoping that in the next dex that the daemon weapons will have a lot more character to them. And maybe the possessed too, cause these days they're pretty much totally useless.