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With the new FAQ ruling on LoS do you think its almost pointless taking it now? Im just starting up a Chaos army and was going to use a template heavy army with LoS DPs but now im not sure if I should and am considering switching to Nurgle DPs with Warptime. Your thoughts?

its not pointless although its usefullness declined.

You can still lash enemies closer or further away for assault purposes, although you will have shot at them and have to assault them if you want to assault.

I'm not a chaos player, but what was the big change? Before you simply didnt roll to hit, now you need to? I thought princes had a BS of 5 so a 2+ to hit isnt THAT bad is it? (Still sucks, but I also play 'nids so I know how much it sucks to miss with a psychic test using my zoans...)

Before Lash wasn't a PSA, this meant it could be used on a target other then the one the squad was shooting at.


So a sorceror in a unit of Plague Marines could lash a unit of Assault terminators away from them while the Plague Marines lit another squad up with their shooting weapons. Now Lash is a PSA and must roll to hit and is a shooting weapon(must shoot at same target)

Even more unfair is that Jaws and Blood Lance were ruled to NOT have to roll to his dispite being PSAs.

Lash took a bit of a nerf, but it still hits on a 2+ so it isn't really "bad" by any sense. The overall pros and cons are still there, just 17% less effective.

Now Warptime, that took a big hit. It went from awesome CC powerhouse power to "mulligan for bad rolls". Horrible.

Warptime is basicly useless now. It is far too expensive for the benefit. Warptime princes usuall hit on 3+ and wound on 2+. Thus, you get more hits than misses for the most part. If you take a reroll, unless you rolled signifagantly bad, you should stick with what you got because the reroll could be even worse!

For example: 4 attacks hitting on 3+, 2 of them hit. So, a little below average. With a reroll, you have a 60% chance of doing better, a 30% chance of doing the same, and a 10% chance of doing worse. So if you hit twice, your expensive warptime power gets you about 2/3rd more hits. If you hit with 3, then you should never use warptime, as there is a 40% chance it will be worse.

For wounds, there is a 48% chance of 4 wounds when rolled and a 38% chance of 3 wounds. Thus, if you roll 3 wounds, chances are you will do the same or worse if you take a reroll. There is not much point if your expected wound only goes up by .333, but you have a 14% chance to do even worse.

End of the story is that Warptime is better served being replaced for either another psychic power, or mark of khorne if you want to be better in combat.

As for lash, while needing to hit is a slap on the cheek when comparing to Jaws, the real deal breaker is making it a psychic shooting attack in the first place. This greatly devalues lash sorcs attached to units, and somewhat devalues princes.

Yeah I don't play Chaos and even I think warp time nerf is a complete and utter joke. Poor CSM :(

I guess I was using Lash all wrong because I was rolling to hit and treating it as a shooting attack already.

The ruling about Warptime was horrible. Per RAW that is exactly what it says to do. The problem exists because the Chaos Space Marine Codex is a 4th edition codex with 4th edition rules. In the 4th edition rulebook it stated that whenever you have a re-roll, you get to choose the dice you are re-rolling. In 5th edition that rule no longer is in the rulebook. The FAQ is meant to clear up those discrepancys that are cause by edition changes, and instead they made a stupid ruling and made the power idiotic, and you get to pay 25 points for it!

While we're on the topic I'd like to clear something up.

Am I correct that a DP with MoS can have lash or warptime, but not both?

As far as I read it, only MoT DP's can have two powers.

Someone help @.@

BronzeJon wrote:While we're on the topic I'd like to clear something up.

Am I correct that a DP with MoS can have lash or warptime, but not both?

As far as I read it, only MoT DP's can have two powers.

Someone help @.@

That's right, only a MoT DP can buy two powers.

And only one with Slaanesh can take Lash.

Blackmoor wrote:The ruling about Warptime was horrible. Per RAW that is exactly what it says to do. The problem exists because the Chaos Space Marine Codex is a 4th edition codex with 4th edition rules. In the 4th edition rulebook it stated that whenever you have a re-roll, you get to choose the dice you are re-rolling. In 5th edition that rule no longer is in the rulebook.

Nope; it's still there on page 2. "pick up the dice you want to re-roll"

Mannahnin wrote:And only one with Slaanesh can take Lash.

Blackmoor wrote:The ruling about Warptime was horrible. Per RAW that is exactly what it says to do. The problem exists because the Chaos Space Marine Codex is a 4th edition codex with 4th edition rules. In the 4th edition rulebook it stated that whenever you have a re-roll, you get to choose the dice you are re-rolling. In 5th edition that rule no longer is in the rulebook.

Nope; it's still there on page 2. "pick up the dice you want to re-roll"

So...what you're saying is that GW is ruling against their own rulebook here? Classic What's to stop all TOs from ignoring these idiotic rules? I mean, these are SUGGESTIONS from GW right, not "you must follow these rules or we will purge you for heretical decisions!"

Chrysis wrote:

BronzeJon wrote:While we're on the topic I'd like to clear something up.

Am I correct that a DP with MoS can have lash or warptime, but not both?

As far as I read it, only MoT DP's can have two powers.

Someone help @.@

That's right, only a MoT DP can buy two powers.

I got beat by a noob playing for one of his first games in a 1000p cities of death, DP with MoS lash and warptime, neither of which he psychic tested for and illegal for both, just picked up the dice and rerolled. I killed the rest of all of his gak and his DP just walked through making all armor saves.

faak

timetowaste85 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:And only one with Slaanesh can take Lash.

Blackmoor wrote:The ruling about Warptime was horrible. Per RAW that is exactly what it says to do. The problem exists because the Chaos Space Marine Codex is a 4th edition codex with 4th edition rules. In the 4th edition rulebook it stated that whenever you have a re-roll, you get to choose the dice you are re-rolling. In 5th edition that rule no longer is in the rulebook.

Nope; it's still there on page 2. "pick up the dice you want to re-roll"

So...what you're saying is that GW is ruling against their own rulebook here? Classic What's to stop all TOs from ignoring these idiotic rules? I mean, these are SUGGESTIONS from GW right, not "you must follow these rules or we will purge you for heretical decisions!"

it wouldn't be the first time GW rules against their own rules. Falchions anyone?

I don't really know what to say about all this.

I play an all Tzeentch army and already submitted my list for a tournament in a week or so. Instead of using warptime every time I attack or shoot it'll be worth using about 10-20% of the time. So I've basically just thrown away 50 points and the actually good part about my HQs. Just another kick in the nuts to an army that already wasn't good.

Just play it like you used to. Ignore the ruling. It isn't an errata and directly contradicts rules in the main book.

I'm glad they clarified warptime. You have to get twisty with RAW to get the old way of playing in the first place, and that interpretation was ALWAYS against RAI.

Its points cost is now correctly balanced. It makes the prince about as good as one with a mark of khorne for about the same price, except you can give this ability to a unit that also has the benefits of other marks.

People can queque about how their pet overpowered interpretation of this special rule was kaiboshed by an even MORE blatantly obvious attempt to tell you how the rule is supposed to work, but, well...
... we'll all be waiting when you're done.

Ailaros wrote:You have to get twisty with RAW to get the old way of playing in the first place, and that interpretation was ALWAYS against RAI.

It makes the prince about as good as one with a mark of khorne for about the same price, except you can give this ability to a unit that also has the benefits of other marks.

The power says I can re-roll all to hit and to wound. You say "all" means I'd re-roll failed dice as well, but that's got virtually no precedent. The big book states you can choose which dice you re-roll, so "all" should just mean that every die in both categories can be re-rolled. They could have used all or any, or a number of other words to the same effect. There are cases where all dice must be re-rolled and those are explicitly stated. If you put the rules under such scrutiny that the casual use of "all" breaks this power, half the game would also break.

To your other point, paying 15 more points and taking a psychic test (filled with risks) to get the same effect is not properly priced. You could argue opportunity cost if the item was even comparable to marks in price. It is so much more expensive than either of the offensive marks that taking it along with a defensive one renders it inefficient in the extreme.

It was not a game-breaking power before, and it will be practically useless now. You can rail against use for complaining, but the codex is old. We are not spoiled. The book needs every advantage it can get.

Well, it has already been ruled the other way, so my suggestion would be to just stop taking warptime anymore. :( Lash Princes are still pretty good. I mean, how often can you roll a 1 to hit? >_<

That's true I did forget that DPs are BS5 so its adds only an extra 1/6 chance of LoS not working. Its just sad that there was only really two decent builds for a DP and now they knocked it down to one.

Except its not "just" another 16% chance of it not working, it counts as firing a ranged weapon with all the restrictions that apply. You can only lash what your squad is shooting at and you can only assault what you lashed. Essentially limiting the usefulness to moving something closer so you can hit it.

Grey Templar wrote:it wouldn't be the first time GW rules against their own rules. Falchions anyone?

The Falchions ruling was correct RAW. People didn't like the RAW of Falchions because it would make them suck and no one would take them. That, however, isn't a good rules argument.

Ailaros wrote:Its points cost is now correctly balanced.

No, the point cost is not correctly balanced. In fact, it's so far from balanced that there's no reason to take the power.

timetowaste85 wrote:
So...what you're saying is that GW is ruling against their own rulebook here? Classic What's to stop all TOs from ignoring these idiotic rules? I mean, these are SUGGESTIONS from GW right, not "you must follow these rules or we will purge you for heretical decisions!"

GW breaking their own rules is nothing new.

However most TOs will take the GW rulings because....well....they are the game designers after all. I don't like a lot of the ruling, but I'll stick to them. Now the errata and amendments on the other hand are actual changes to the books.....those must be followed.

Grey Templar wrote:it wouldn't be the first time GW rules against their own rules. Falchions anyone?

I think that was more them just being idiots and not writing clear rules.

Well here to hoping the 6th ed Chaos will get something better than this poorly written and FAQed to oblivion garbage dex.

the lash prince is still the way to go. lash is there as an extra bonus. the int 6 monstrous creature is meant to be in combat. lash is 20 points and you can use it help get into combat sooner. fly the 310 points of the two demon princes forward. lash what you can and maybe get into combat turn 1.
there are lots of counters to lash but the 40 points spent on it for two princes can win you some games just by being a lash prince.

JGrand wrote:Lash took a bit of a nerf, but it still hits on a 2+ so it isn't really "bad" by any sense. The overall pros and cons are still there, just 17% less effective.

Now Warptime, that took a big hit. It went from awesome CC powerhouse power to "mulligan for bad rolls". Horrible.

And you have to assault/shoot the unit you lashed. So it's 17% less effective, and less tactically useful

And warptime is now trash. For 25p its utter utter trash. Before its cost was justifiable; now its not. 5/10 point power? Yeah maybe. 25? I could get lash for that!

BronzeJon wrote:
I got beat by a noob playing for one of his first games in a 1000p cities of death, DP with MoS lash and warptime, neither of which he psychic tested for and illegal for both, just picked up the dice and rerolled. I killed the rest of all of his gak and his DP just walked through making all armor saves.
faak

So you didn't check out how a new players model and rules worked.
And he's the noob?
riiiiiiiight...



As far as I'm concerned, this FAQ is going to lead to more nurgle princes for me, and more dreads now that the whole LoS thing is clearly faq'd

Yeah, at least there isn't room for argument anymore.

All the more reason to spam Gift of Chaos

I might pull the ol' Nurgle lord with a daemon weapon out. Made him back in the day using a robed DA body with possessed and CSM parts. First HQ I made when I got back into the hobby. Having another look at him, I'm impressed by my little kitbash- I'm going to have to paint this sucker up, So he doesn't stick out like a sore thumb with my raptors

The Falchions ruling was correct RAW. People didn't like the RAW of Falchions because it would make them suck and no one would take them. That, however, isn't a good rules argument.

I disagree here, on both points.

First, all Nemesis weapons have additional special rules. The Falchions were no exception... except now that the FAQ is out they infact have no other special rules, they instead simply come in pairs. Why would they list that 2 weapons give +1 attacks as a special rule? They didnt give DCA with 2 power weapons the 'special rule' of getting +1 attack for using a pair of power weapons. There was even a flowchart a poster made that underlined each rule in the rulebook clearly, demonstrating why Falchions in a pair had +2 attacks total.

Second, prefaq, in the absence of GW giving us their interpretation, pointing out that Falchions were pointless with 'only' one attack means we can use this information to make an interpretation on the Falchion rules. Since some, like you Biccat, disagreed with the underlined flowchart in the rulebook demonstrating that Falchions do get +2 attacks total, RAI could hopefully kick in.

For example, when the Shadow in the Warp was ruled not to work on psykers inside vehicles, for no reason, everyone knew that the FAQ was wrong. However, because it was in a FAQ it got played that way anyway.

While I can understand the errata of Lash becoming a psychic shooting attack now, despite being years late with that clarification, thats fine. PSAs were not well defined in 4th ed, and many of the FAQs for 4th ed codex included which psychic abilities were PSAs. That said, Lash still wins games, and is still one of the best psychic powers in the game, despite the nerf.

Warptime, on the other hand, was really not that amazing before. If you were supposed to mulligan your dice, as opposed to rerolling them as needed, no one would have bothered in the first place. Powers like Doom and guide allow an entire unit to reroll hits or wounds. Warptime was limited to a single model that already hit and wounded well, its useful only about 10% of the time now, when you miss with all attacks or all but 1.

Its was probably intentional because warptime was just too good. Seriously, for 25 points, it was under costed. To achieve the same kind of boost to combat effect as warptime, you would have had to pay more than just 25 points.

If it allowed for rerolls of just misses (which was how a lot of people played it, including me), then it was at least the equivalent of adding 2 more attacks to a DP and then giving him lightning claws for the reroll to wound effect.

Lightning claws are 30 points base, and adding just one attack (mark of khorne) was another 10 points. And considering that if this was all combined together, it would probably be worth more, then warptime would have been at least 40 points base.