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Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
As has been concluded in another thread, Eldrad (fluff-wise) would completely annihilate Mephiston in a psychic battle.
Out of the list you've provided, I'll have to say Tigurius. While Mephiston has mastered psychic abilities which empower him, Tigurius is a master of all the psychic arts.
Iranna.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/20 22:38:58
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Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
As has been concluded in another thread, Eldrad (fluff-wise) would completely annihilate Mephiston in a psychic battle.
Out of the list you've provided, I'll have to say Tigurius. While Mephiston has mastered psychic abilities which empower him, Tigurius is a master of all the psychic arts.
Iranna.
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
bollocks. lol
I bet Njal would pwn him psychically.. Ahriman would eat him as well. This is librarians so it's the psychic which we're going off. You want to decide things from how much a smurf can lift go start a separate thread.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Ahriman is a SORCEROR, not a PSYKER.
.......strangely they both deal with warpcraft and get nailed by SITW........its kind of like saying "My pet is a canine, not a dog"
Agreed. In the 40k verse it seems more accurate to describe sorcery as a more exotic discipline of psychic mastery, rather than a seperate entity or even just a different name for the darker version of the same thing. To me it's like saying Dark/black Magic and Magic or wizard vs warlock.
Asherian Command wrote:
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
He's asking you who is the most powerful in the list provided, not in the entire Imperium.
Asherian Command wrote:
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
He's asking you who is the most powerful in the list provided, not in the entire Imperium.
Iranna.
The quote he responded to claimed that Mephiston is the most powerful psyker ever except Magnus and the Emperor.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman."
Tigurius. And no, the 'most powerful living psyker in the Imperium' line isn't even Matt Ward's fluff; that was in the 4h Edition Space Marine Codex, too. Tigurius can in fact tell what the Tyranids are going to do, which means he is capable of one of two things;
1) Predicting the future with pin-point accuracy, or
2) Tapping directly into the Hive Mind without being driven insane.
Either way, that's far more badass than Mephiston, who uses his psychic power to make himself stronger (which any Librarian can do) or Njal, who uses his psychic power to make it windy and cold.
Ahriman, of course, is on an entirely different level from any of them, as is Eldrad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
False. Anyone can try to attract the attention of the Chaos Gods, and if the Chaos Gods happen to like you, they may gift you with sorcery; but sorcerors and psykers use exactly the same source of power, in basically the same way. The words are essentially interchangable; one is 'psykers the Imperium likes' and the other is 'psykers the Imperium murders on sight'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/21 17:13:44
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
False. Anyone can try to attract the attention of the Chaos Gods, and if the Chaos Gods happen to like you, they may gift you with sorcery; but sorcerors and psykers use exactly the same source of power, in basically the same way. The words are essentially interchangable; one is 'psykers the Imperium likes' and the other is 'psykers the Imperium murders on sight'.
Magnus was banned from studying sorcery, but was allowed to practice his psyker abilities... Sorcery is the manipulation of the warp through objects, psykers use their minds. One can study sorcery, one cannot learn how to become a psyker...
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman."
Magnus was banned from studying sorcery, but was allowed to practice his psyker abilities... Sorcery is the manipulation of the warp through objects, psykers use their minds. One can study sorcery, one cannot learn how to become a psyker...
One can study sorcery if one is a psyker. 'Magic', as we think of it, does not exist in 40k, only psychic powers. Sorcerors may use ritual objects to focus their minds, but then so do Imperial psykers; the object does not provide the power and control, the sorceror's mind does.
'Sorcery' is the name which the Imperium gives to those uses of psychic power of which it does not approve, or which can be learned from daemons and the Chaos Gods. 'Sorcerors' are the people who use their psychic abilities in certain ways to summon daemons and/or manifest the powers associated with Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or Nurgle. 'Psykers' are the people who only use their psychic abilites in certain prescribed ways, and do not study the Warp or daemonology.
I don't believe there is a single instance, in all of 40k fluff, of a person who is not a psyker using sorcery. If there is, I haven't seen it; can you provide an example?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/21 17:29:28
Well the Sanctioned Psyker = good (or rather OK-ish), Sorcerer = bad thing has been blurred a tad by the infamous C:GK, since the GKs are now explicitly described as using sorcery (and are psykers).
But I'd be with the Deadly Squirrel on this one. The lore is full of examples of 'blunts' invoking 'supernatural' power and/or making daemonic pacts via relics, talismans, sigils, sacrifice and belief, and following the instructions in evil tomes. That's why Chaos incursions and artifacts are so dangerous and all who perceive them are contained or purged: They give 'blunts' the ability to act as sorcerers (wittingly or unwittingly).
So yeah, using sorcery is cheating since it uses external and daemonic devices to create effects; this isn't the same as having an innate ability and amplifying that with a mundane piece of tech (Tarot, object used as a focus, hood etc).
If you can only perform a certain act by using a particular object or calling upon a daemon etc then that's sorcery (however powerful a psyker you might otherwise be).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/21 18:32:21
But I'd be with the Deadly Squirrel on this one. The lore is full of examples of 'blunts' invoking 'supernatural' power and/or making daemonic pacts via relics, talismans, sigils, sacrifice and belief, and following the instructions in evil tomes. That's why Chaos incursions and artifacts are so dangerous and all who perceive them are contained or purged: They give 'blunts' the ability to act as sorcerers (wittingly or unwittingly).
Can you give any examples? Because, honestly, I don't recall any at the moment.
The only times 'blunts' ever do anything involved with the Warp is if a daemon who has somehow entered reality (though a Warp rift or the work of a psyker) is creating the effect. At all other times, anyone who is using sorcery is clearly described as a psyker. Anyone can make a pact with a daemon if they can find one, of course; but I wouldn't say that's 'sorcery', because the pact-maker is not actually contacting the Warp.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/21 18:36:13
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'? Sorcery is just a part of the psyker abilities that taps into the more exotic areas of the warp, that's the general implication we've always been given (Think Sith/Jedi..both force users however one uses forbidden lore to further their power). Inquisitors use these powers, Librarians use those powers, the emperor uses those powers, the farseers use those powers and sorcerers use those powers. They're just all groups of psykers who practise in different disciplines but are ultimately all psykers.
Semper wrote:Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'?
Sorcery is a very distinct and separate process to psychic power.
With sorcery you make pacts with daemons, manipulate the logic and laws of the warp, make sacrifices, and perform rituals to attract the attention of the darker powers of the warp.
Psykers draw the warp's energy and manipulate realspace with said energy. It's like the difference between a sorcerer(Psyker) and a warlock(Sorcerer) in DnD, truth be told. In DnD:
Spoiler:
A wizard studies the laws of magic and how to manipulate it thorugh a lifetime of study. They are intellectual spellcasters. The equivalent to this is an adept who studies the warp or a more scholarly psyker (who is across between a wizard and a sorcerer, essentially like a multiclasser), though the former is quite rare and mostly amongst the Inquisition (see FFG's Dark Heresy corebook) because usually such studies are otherwise heresy. Librarians might fall somewhat in to this category, but they'd more fit the next one because they are born with their power. Similarly, 40k!Sorcerers likely fit somewhat into this, but they fit more in to the warlock type.
A sorcerer is born with magic, and spend their lives expanding upon their natural power instead of trying to study it. Rather than memorizing spells, they can draw forth spells because of their nature. Some study is usually still beneficial to them so that they can control their spells, however. This is what a battle psyker is most like, and a librarian definitely is this.
A warlock is the last type of arcane spellcaster. They perform rituals, make sacrifices, and make dark pacts with unknowable creatures for power, often demons and devils although not exclusively so. This is a direct comparison to 40k!sorcerers, and though 40k!sorcerers may have some elements of both the previous types (a psyker can be a 40k!sorcerer, but a 40k!sorcerer does not have to be a psyker-- any non-Blank individual can become a 40k!sorcerer).
While I wouldn't claim that Librarians don't do this (however unlikely it seems) because I tend to ignore Marine lore because it's usually pretty poorly written, Sanctionites do not participate in sorcery. It is heresy. Staffs are a focus for the psyker's power, they are not unique to sorcerers. Nor are books, nor are prayers.
Being a psyker is genetic, you are born a psyker by a the random hand of fate. Being a sorcerer is a choice, you become a sorcerer by selling your soul for power.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/01/21 22:26:32
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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My blog
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'? Sorcery is just a part of the psyker abilities that taps into the more exotic areas of the warp, that's the general implication we've always been given (Think Sith/Jedi..both force users however one uses forbidden lore to further their power). Inquisitors use these powers, Librarians use those powers, the emperor uses those powers, the farseers use those powers and sorcerers use those powers. They're just all groups of psykers who practise in different disciplines but are ultimately all psykers.
They use their minds.
Read Space Marine librarian and other things.
Books are usually carried because they record things. They don't say magic words from them. They think it and they do it.
That would mean everyone would use books, staffs, and prayers. not all of them do.
Prayers are giving the person a willpower bonus (which basically shields them even though they think they are being protected by the emperor in fact it is they who are causing it) Staffs focus the power. And books record the information. The Librarians job is to record deeds done in the chapter and only the grey Knights use the book's they carry for something else like True Names against Daemons.
All of this Stuff Can be found in the 4th edition and the 5th edition space marine codexs. And also every piece of fiction that has used Librarians
Farseers use stones to amplify their power.
Sorcerers bargain and get power and do many other nasty things. (Though they have to find a book of the ruinous powers first)
Santictioned Priests have to do alot of other things.
Space Marine Liby's use their mind. Plus The staff isn't just limited to a staff. There are such things as Force Swords, Force Halbrieds, Force Axe, Force Hammer, Force Claws, Force (Insert melee weapon here), anything they would want that bonds with the pysker. (Yes Weapons have machine spirits.)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I'll repeat my request; can someone provide an example of any piece of fluff in which a non-psyker sorcerer exists? Because I think you're drawing a false distinction. Sorcery, as I've always understood it, is not something distinct from psychic power but a SUBSET of psychic power; all sorcerers are necessarily psykers, though not all psykers are sorcerers.
BeRzErKeR wrote:I'll repeat my request; can someone provide an example of any piece of fluff in which a non-psyker sorcerer exists?
The Black Crusade core rulebook goes in to it in more depth ,but it is also covered in the dark heresy supplements.
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Melissia wrote:The Black Crusade core rulebook goes in to it in more depth ,but it is also covered in the dark heresy supplements.
Fair enough. I don't have any DH stuff, so I haven't read whatever's written in there. I'm working off of the core rulebooks, codexes, and BL fiction; but the impression I've always gotten is that 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' are really two different names for either identical or very similar things, both of which work via drawing Warp energy into realspace through the intermediary of a human brain (which has to be mutated in a particular way to be capable of this). For instance, sorcery is never mentioned in connection with blunts, only when referring to psykers; the words 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' seem in some places to be used interchangably, and certainly every Chaos-aligned psyker is called a 'sorcerer' regardless of the specific mechanic by which they use their power.
The BL books are notorious for being contradictory with eachother and the core books, and even inherently within their own logic. And the corebooks are limited as they only really care about what goes on in the tabletop.
I'll give you an example of sorcery that does not require a psyker, however:
Disciples of the Dark Gods wrote:To the Ordos [of the Inquisition], a Logos Daemonis is an instruction to foul beasts of the Emyrean and a danger to Mankind by its apparently innocent nature until moved into the final configuration. The attendance of any other form of warp-craft or psyker taint is not necessary for a Logos to activate and calldown destruction upon all around it.
It is literally sorcery activated by a machine which was itself crafted to summon a daemon in to realspace bound to it. No psyker power is necessary in its creation or in the manipulation of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:the words 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' seem in some places to be used interchangably, and certainly every Chaos-aligned psyker is called a 'sorcerer' regardless of the specific mechanic by which they use their power.
The former is true yes. The Imperium uses sorcerer as an insult, after all, and most people in the Imperium who refer to sorcery have no damned clue what they refer to.
The latter however is not true-- Black Crusade for example refers to psykers as merely "psykers", while Imperial psykers are actually referred to as Sanctionites (or Sanctioned Psykers / Imperial Psykers for alternate names).
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/01/21 23:01:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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BeRzErKeR: I'm trying to get a source for you about blunt sorcerors. It's tricky since: for me it's one of those common things I've come across in the lore for ages so whenever I've come across it (again) I haven't mentally tagged it as noteworthy... and most 40k books and whatnot are pretty samey (and mind-numbingly empty) and merge into each other...; and the majority of my deep knowledge of the 40k lore came from stuff of a decade and more ago (gettin' old - can't remember nothing...).
I'll drop any sources I can remember for you - but if I don't, that doesn't mean that there aren't any. What about the old (retconned now) Nikaea thing where sorcerors were forbidden but psykers/librarians weren't? There must have been at least some distinction between these two things then. But yeah, once that retcon flamethrower gets going when your back's turned, who knows what it's hit?
Semper: I'd say that the major difference between Jedi/Sith isn't in the study of lore (though that can be part of it for both parties) but that Jedi strive to be ego-less to let the Force act through them unimpeded, where Sith use emotion and will to bend the Force to their desires. Jedi are the tools of the Force, Sith use the Force as a tool.
I only mention this because, for all that 40k can be pretty generic and archetypal, it's really hard to transpose a Jedi/Sith into this setting accurately; which points to the different metaphysics (which some might find interesting or relevant).
Disciples of the Dark Gods wrote:To the Ordos [of the Inquisition], a Logos Daemonis is an instruction to foul beasts of the Emyrean and a danger to Mankind by its apparently innocent nature until moved into the final configuration. The attendance of any other form of warp-craft or psyker taint is not necessary for a Logos to activate and calldown destruction upon all around it.
It is literally sorcery activated by a machine which was itself crafted to summon a daemon in to realspace bound to it. No psyker power is necessary in its creation or in the manipulation of it.
But doesn't that sentence seem to imply, to you, that the Logos Daemonis works through a psychic mechanism? It sounds to me as if the machine itself works on the same 'principle', for lack of a better word, as a human psyker's connection to the Warp does. Does just the fact that it's a machine and not a person disqualify it?
I'm not trying to be pedantic here; I'm genuinely curious, because the way I read the lore, the fact that the distinction between 'sorcery' and 'psyker powers' was so thin and subjective is one of the most interesting things about the Imperium. It condemns Chaos powers on the one hand while, on the other, relying utterly upon them for it's own survival; it feeds Chaos to sustain itself, while also warring bitterly against Chaos to prevent its own destruction. If sorcery and psychic powers are genuinely, objectively different things, a great deal of that inner tension goes away, and that actually makes the setting a bit less interesting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/01/22 04:14:11
BeRzErKeR wrote:But doesn't that sentence seem to imply, to you, that the Logos Daemonis works through a psychic mechanism?
No.
It binds a daemon through sorcery to the object, destroying the object in the process and creating a daemon which rages through the environment until it destabilizes and loses form.
A daemon can be bound through psychic power (controlling the daemon through willpower) but the mechanisms aren't the same any more than, say... a subpoena (using sorcery to bind a daemon) is the same as taking a gun to someone's head and forcing them to go to court without a subpoena (a psyker using willpower to bind a daemon).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/01/22 05:14:20
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