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daveNYC wrote:So all the other novels where billions of people are killed in all sorts of horrible ways are fine, but the threat of killing children somehow pushes things over the line?

That's right. There is a big difference when it comes to storytelling between abstract "off-screen" death and visceral, personal "on-screen " violence.

But surely you've heard of this before. Remember when the Death Star blew up in Star Wars? I know we were all horrified by the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives, right?

Er, no. It was upbeat, exciting, and meant that the good guys had won the day. Contrast that to any death scene in the movie Saw.

What's more horrible in a story (please remember that we're not talking about real life here): the death of one person in front of you or the death that you never saw of a billion people?

I know, I know -- it seems like magic. But it's really just basic narrative technique.

You're being a wuss. Seriously.

Some very inetresting points and views here

Rape: See Night Lords novel Soul Hunter. Female astropath is dragged by a gang of prisoners to the darkest parts of the prison complex for 4 hours.

Was implied, she wasnt actually raped if you reread it, the NL got to her before it began and killed the convicts.

Excessive Torture: Dark Angels love torture. Any story involving Dark Eldar had torture.

Agreed. However its not ever explicit and described in detail, sure its Grimdark but not excessive imho

Child Abuse: Conscript platoons.

Can you clarify? Conscripts are made up of either penal troops or men/women, I have never heard of a child conscript. I am open to correction however.

Incest: The Navigator Houses are completely reliant on incest.

Always implied.

@ Kan quoting directly from passage here:



I side with Manchu on this one btw and hes expressed my views very well.


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You're being a wuss

Thats ok
I did ask for that.

Haven't read the story in question yet, so I can't comment on that is specific. However killing or torturing children is not really new in 40k, albeit usually implied rather than overtly stated.

Pretty sure that on any Imperium world captured by, well, anyone except maybe the Eldar or Tau, the kids aren't going to get off easy.

The creepiest and most effective portions of the Gaunts Ghosts novels when they visit and return to Gereon is the descriptions of how the occupation effects the civilians, including children and mothers. If you want a plausible (if that word means anything in 40k) world you need to address those issues occasionally, and there is nothing wrong with doing it in a way that emphasizes the horror of the setting.

Not saying it can't be done wrong, because it certainly can, the Snidely Whiplash style of villainy described by the OP may have been inappropriate if accurate. but actively ignoring it so we can fool ourselves into thinking it wouldn't happen in the circumstances we read about is equally bad writing.

TLDR: It isn't always inappropriate, just has to be handled right.

Probably boils down to that Pano as you and others said.
It was just a real WTF moment in an otherwise average battle novel.

I'll concede that it's possible that a scene like this could actually be relevant to the story and well-done. It's not this scene, however, and I don't think there really needs to be one in order for me to "buy into" the 40k world being awful. I maintain that "grim darkness" is never a justification for using certain images.

It didn't even stand out to me in anyway. I just read it, thought "oh, come on they aren't going to slay children too!" And then "ha, the SW even think to train and arm the children, awesome." I had no problem other than just hoping they wouldn't get to kill the kids, and they didn't so I was happy. I have no problem with the 40k books becoming a little darker than they currently are but I also would be fine with them staying as is.

Whiteshield platoons are comprised of children (AFAIK age 16)
The Navigators 'implied' incest isn't implied. during the SW books they pretty much go right ahead and say it.

IIRC, there is no scene of a brother going at it with his sister, or the like.

No but they do state that it happens.

Manchu wrote:This is the opposite of complex. Splatter horror and hardcore porn also are not complex. They're extremely superficial.

That was meant as an example for their value as entertainment.
In regards to complexity: cleverly used such scenes can indeed do a lot to set the backdrop, the atmosphere. Do you think a war movie like Saving Private Ryan would have been half as compelling and dramatic if they didn't show people getting their legs blown off? In such cases, it adds to the narrative and the effect the movie tried to achieve. Unless you really went into the cinema only to see a bunch of G.I.s shoot Nazis.
Or read a 40k novel only to see a bunch of cool Marine dudes kick the asses of the bad guys.

Matter of taste, obviously, but personally I do not mind at all that not every novel is 100% "bolter porn" as I believe it is called. At the end of the day, people just gotta find an author that delivers what they want to read. Diversity ftw.

Also, after reading the excerpt posted by Ratius ... Really? That's it?

Lynata, do you really think that Saving Private Ryan is the same as Battle for the Fang?

lol, no - I didn't read that novel, I'm merely defending the use of shocking images (or fantasies) as a narrative element.

Not that there actually was something shocking about that novel. A CSM says he wants to kill a bunch of kids. Not only is it not described in detail, it clearly doesn't happen at all. What's the big deal?

Lynata wrote:compelling and dramatic if they didn't show people getting their legs blown off

...

Lynata wrote:"bolter porn" as I believe it is called

You're talking about these things as if they are different. Bolterporn doesn't mean "the good guys win."


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Lynata wrote:lol, no - I didn't read that novel, I'm merely defending the use of shocking images (or fantasies) as a narrative element.

But what elements are appropriate to what narratives?

I think you can see from the excerpt that this instance is throw-away. This is the bolterporn you mentioned.

Manchu wrote:Bolterporn doesn't mean "the good guys win."

Why do you think I was implying that? "Bolter porn" is a narrative style that focuses on action over story. That said, whilst it isn't an absolute rule, I would say that, yes, aside from a few exceptions, the good guys do win in those books - at least that is my impression from reading various synopses. I will admit I've become somewhat biased against Marine novels due to that.

Manchu wrote:I think you can see from the excerpt that this instance is throw-away. This is the bolterporn you mentioned.

So it seems. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be condemned on principle because 40k would not allow for anything like that.

Lynata wrote:Not that there actually was something shocking about that novel. A CSM says he wants to kill a bunch of kids. Not only is it not described in detail, it clearly doesn't happen at all. What's the big deal?

It's not a big deal at all. The only thing shocking about it is that a published novelist wrote such tripe in the first place. The image serves no purpose except to show that the CSM are EEEEEEVIL mua hahahaha! Jumping straight to killing kids for the sake of this is in poor taste -- but, more importantly, it is gakky writing.


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Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Bolterporn doesn't mean "the good guys win."

Why do you think I was implying that? "Bolter porn" is a narrative style that focuses on action over story. That said, whilst it isn't an absolute rule, I would say that, yes, aside from a few exceptions, the good guys do win in those books - at least that is my impression from reading various synopses. I will admit I've become somewhat biased against Marine novels due to that.

Take a break from them and read this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/334837.page

Manchu wrote:It's not a big deal at all. The only thing shocking about it is that a published novelist wrote such tripe in the first place. The image serves no purpose except to show that the CSM are EEEEEEVIL mua hahahaha! Jumping straight to killing kids for the sake of this is in poor taste -- but, more importantly, it is gakky writing.

I still don't see the problem. Yeeees, it does nothing to advance the story, but - judging purely from that excerpt - neither does it provide an obstacle. It's just something that happens. A small side-event. An intermission, if you will.

I'm sure the book has other pages that would deserve more criticism.

Manchu wrote:Take a break from them and read this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/334837.page

Hmm, I've heard good things about that one. I might grab it - but first I'll have to finish Hammer & Anvil.

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think you can see from the excerpt that this instance is throw-away. This is the bolterporn you mentioned.

So it seems. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be condemned on principle because 40k would not allow for anything like that.

And I'm saying there is a difference between 40k the setting and 40k the product line.

If a fan wants to model an Howling Banshee defending herself from rapist Guardsmen or want to write a similar fanfic -- fine with me. That's all totally plausible according to the setting. Similarly, a fan of Spiderman who draws an explicit image of Peter Parker vigorously bending MJ over the kitchen table has drawn something realistic to the Marvel universe. I'd be non-plussed to find it in a comic book published by Marvel. I'd also be non-plussed to read an IG novel published by BL graphically describing Guardsmen raping an Eldar.


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Lynata wrote:I'm sure the book has other pages that would deserve more criticism.

Undoubtedly so, but this thread is about that page and all the potentially similar pages that BL could but should not print in the future.

To be honest I would be less annoyed with the threatening of children than with the mustache twirling villainy implied by making the threat before following through on the action, come on guys, since you are going to kill me anyway, why don't you reveal your entire plan too? Unless, the villain is actually Old Man Reynolds, the mill owner!

And he would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you meddling Space Wolves!

Panopticon, I think you'll find I criticize this as boring, lazy, and unimaginative from the start.

Manchu wrote:And I'm saying there is a difference between 40k the setting and 40k the product line.
If a fan wants to model an Howling Banshee defending herself from rapist Guardsmen or want to write a similar fanfic -- fine with me. That's all totally plausible according to the setting. Similarly, a fan of Spiderman who draws an explicit image of Peter Parker vigorously bending MJ over the kitchen table has drawn something realistic to the Marvel universe. I'd be non-plussed to find it in a comic book published by Marvel. I'd also be non-plussed to read an IG novel published by BL graphically describing Guardsmen raping an Eldar.

Hence me mentioning that it is certainly possible to "overdo it" earlier. However, I can certainly see the franchise being expanded to include various "styles" for appealing to different target audiences instead of focusing just on either the oldschool fans or the kids.

Maybe just slap a warning label on the book so that people know - apparently they have already done this once.

I suppose I may be somewhat hardened due to the internets and Europe generally being relatively "open-minded" to that sort of stuff - you wouldn't believe the things I've seen printed in the rulebooks and novels for a popular German fantasy RPG. And nobody had a problem with it.

Also: lol @ moustache-twirling villainy

Fair enough, I was mostly expanding on my own thoughts rather than directing them at you.

Lynata wrote:Maybe just slap a warning label on the book so that people know - apparently they have already done this once.

Which one?

And which German RPG are you talking about? Can it be worse than F.A.T.A.L.?

Nothing is worse than F.A.T.A.L.

Do those of you who have issues with this also have issues with:

The Hunger Games (series or single book)
A Game of Thrones (show or A Song of Ice and Fire novels)
Spartacus (the series)
The Heart of Darkness
Lord of the Flies
?

If not then I fail to see why you should be complaining about a novel based in the 40k universe. It isn't childrens literature we're talking about here.


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Manchu wrote:I'll concede that it's possible that a scene like this could actually be relevant to the story and well-done. It's not this scene, however, and I don't think there really needs to be one in order for me to "buy into" the 40k world being awful. I maintain that "grim darkness" is never a justification for using certain images.

That is a legitimate point. If the scene, or book on a whole, had been better done this issue would be almost entirely moot.

That's a really irritating question, OverwatchCNC, because you're pretending/assuming that things that are different are really all the same.


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OverwatchCNC wrote:That is a legitimate point. If the scene, or book on a whole, had been better done this issue would be almost entirely moot.

Absolutely. Even things that are, of themselves, in terrible taste can be awesome with the right delivery/presentation/etc.

Seth MacFarlane once said, a joke can't just be mean -- it also has to be funny.

Manchu wrote:Which one?

Wasn't it that Chaos tome someone mentioned earlier?

Manchu wrote:And which German RPG are you talking about?

Das Schwarze Auge - or The Dark Eye in its export version (whose release the publisher sadly botched).

It's a pretty neat game with interesting rules and a cool setting. However, that setting also includes a country that has now (as of its 4th edition) been taken over by the servants of what could best be described as a BDSM arch-daemoness, seeing 90% of the population turned into slaves of a corrupted nobility. I feel as if I'd collect an infraction when I repeat the descriptions printed in its entry, but I'm sure your imagination is good enough to know what could be possible with daemonic dogs and horses. The books don't contain actual artworks of any sexual scenes, but nudity is there on some few drawings, and a few of the novels did describe sexual encounters (including BDSM or pseudo-bestiality) in detail, but again only as part of the larger picture and never as a focus.

It is worth pointing out that this does not at all colour the entire franchise. It's just one tiny aspect of a larger world that for the most part actually looks fairly normal. I think we can all agree that such stuff also happens in 40k, it's just that in DSA somebody actually bothered to write it down and most people don't mind. They accept it for what it is.

Oh yeah, the rulebook actually does let you pick "whore" or "temple-prostitute" as professions for your character. Though this, too, is just a small aspect, for the list of professions encompasses several hundred jobs, most of whom are fairly mundane - from farmers and fishermen to courier riders, knights and barbers.

In essence, DSA doesn't try to "block this stuff out", but neither does it promote it over any of what you would describe as normal. It just "exists".

Manchu wrote:You're pretending that this is a book about real life. It's actually a book about genetically engineered space monks.

Let me put it to you like this: humans feth, right? And Guardsmen are humans? So how about an IG novel with graphic sex scenes? No, I don't mean something reasonable. I mean something along the lines of "Commissar Smirnov shoved his XXX into Lieutenant Ashburn's YYY." Unless XXX stands for fist and YYY stand for face, this kind of thing is totally unnecessary for a 40k novel. Realistic? Maybe but who cares.

There are a million other ways that one could communicate "this is a Chaos marine and he's a bad fella" so using the image/expectatoin of child torture/rape/murder is hardly necessary and I doubt it was selected by the author for the sake of "realism."

And, in any case, realism is a poor excuse for bad taste.

I do not mind some realism in my entertainment, thank you very much. But that's not the point ; what I am talking about is relevance.

Actually, I could see some kind of Slaaneshi perversion thrown in if to portray what's horribly wrong with its followers (Fan Disservice, to add a trope), which might or might not qualify for "graphic sex scenes". Other than that, yeah, sex is irrelevant, because romance has never been a component of 40k. Unlike war and violence, under all their forms.

I can see where you come from with this. Yes, the way the OP narrates it, it's a gratuitous Kick The Dog moment to establish a Chaos Marine as a baaaad guy, and we've all seen it a million time.

Here's my point : that is no excuse for children to get plot armour.

And I'm afraid "bad tastes" here is just a personal judgement.

Lynata wrote:In essence, DSA doesn't try to "block this stuff out", but neither does it promote it over any of what you would describe as normal. It just "exists".

But it doesn't exist ... except that someone imagined it up. There is no ... necessity, if you see what I mean, to any of it.

Yes, I am a judgmental person in this regard. I do not value diversity to some extreme hypothetical degree. I don't see any need to tolerate or accept people who abuse children or have sex with animals. I also don't think these subjects are entertaining and, frankly, I think poorly of people who are entertained by them. OTOH, I'm not advocating the criminalization of German fantasy RPGs.

You use the expression "accepting it for what it is," which I find pretty disturbing. Because I don't think you're really engaged with it, that you're really accepting it for what it is. What you perceive as "hardening" or cynicism, I perceive as desensitization and erosion of aesthetic standards.

Again, some of this stuff can be done well, which is best talked about with specific examples rather than in the abstract, and then all is forgiven. Otherwise ... why would anyone feel compelled to condone or even excuse this stuff?


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Hyd wrote:Here's my point : that is no excuse for children to get plot armour.

Why should children even appear at all?

I'm afraid this particular example will not carry the weight of your point.

Manchu wrote:That's a really irritating question, OverwatchCNC, because you're pretending/assuming that things that are different are really all the same.

I fail to see how the question is irritating or how the examples given are too different to make a point. They are all at minimum fiction and, with the exception of Lord of the Flies and Heart of Darkness, SciFi/Fantasy. They all have dreadful acts committed by or to children, and they all contain questionable governmental systems/leaders. I thought my examples were quite well chosen as a comparison being discussed. Why the outrage about the scene with children in Battle of the Fang but not over the other books/movies/shows?