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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Panopticon wrote:Kanluwen, the examples you gave are exactly the examples I used as good uses of children in 40k, they served a purpose to the plot and weren't just in danger to show how scary CSM are.

That's an enitirely different argument. You're saying it's ok to endanger and kill children as long as its done well. His writing skills offend you, not the morality of it.

That's what's been said all along, actually. Various other posters have tried to make this about some kind of moral issue but the real problem is that it's disproportionate, shows poor taste, and a lack of skill. It's cookie cutter crap and it's exactly why BL has a poor reputation.

Manchu wrote:They're explicitly called children.

You see, the point was not really to show anything about Fenrisian life. If so, those "children" would have been described in better detail so as to show you the sort of thing that you and Kanluwen are talking about. As things stand, it takes a fair amount of outside knowledge (even reading the Codex would not be enough) to come to the conclusions you and Kan are coming to.

Thus, the point was -- as Joey said -- to substitute sensation for skill. It's a true "kick the dog" moment. "Everyone knows that only a real douchbag would want to torture kids -- so obviously my CSM will be all about that herp derp."

So you wrote this book? You know explicitly what the author was intending?

I've read the book. I did not get the vibe of "herpderp badguys" from it. I got the vibe of "This is what the Thousand Sons have come to".

I don't need to have written a book to be able to read it. But when I do read a book, in the context of having read a bunch of other books on the same subject, I have a pretty good idea of what's going on in it.

This isn't about "vibes" -- it's about what is and isn't on the page.

And it's also about this is the first time the Thousand Sons went to war after the scouring of Prospero.

And there was no good reason to involve children at all in this book.

Outside of the fact that the children of serfs live on the Fang, you mean?

That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing. It'd be like describing exterminatus with a scene of a toddler being eaten alive by the Life-Eater Virus.

Manchu wrote:That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing. It'd be like describing exterminatus with a scene of a toddler being eaten alive by the Life-Eater Virus.

And? I think that could contribute a great deal, if done effectively; namely, it would contribute a feel for exactly how horrific Exterminatus actually is, as opposed to "A bunch of people died, but they aren't main characters, so nobody gives a flying feth".

These books don't have to be cartoons. Sometimes the authors are actually trying to deal with moral or emotional issues, or at least bring them up. These seems, to me, to be one of those times; the author was attempting to create some pathos by demonstrating just how bitter and vengeful the Thousand Sons are. He may have done it badly, but that does not make the thing he was attempting to do worthless.

To use one of Kanluwen's favorite phrases, it was hamfisted at best.

Also, no one said the book is worthless.

Manchu wrote:To use one of Kanluwen's favorite phrases, it was hamfisted at best.

Also, no one said the book is worthless.

Fair enough. Hamfisted pathos is a horrible thing.

No-one said so, no; I have simply interpreted many of your comments as being dismissive of the possibility of strong or worthwhile pathos in 40k novels. The reference to them as 'cartoons' gave me the impression that you are arguing that 40k novels should only be viewed as light, relatively mindless entertainment, which is not at all how I view them. If that's not the impression you've meant to give, then I apologize.

No prob, BeRzErKeR. The thread was going a quite a chop there and it was easy to miss posts.

I had no problem with this...it shows you that Fenrisians are warriors from a young age. This kind of thing happens in real life as well.

A Syrian Renault 35 tank at Kibbutz Degania that was attacked by children with hand grenades and Molitovs during the War of Independence.



Kids with grenades are a dangerous thing...

Manchu wrote:That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing. It'd be like describing exterminatus with a scene of a toddler being eaten alive by the Life-Eater Virus.

This would be a good idea. It conveys that Exterminatus isn't just a term,and you really are wiping out entire civilizations with real people in them.

Harriticus wrote:

Manchu wrote:That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing. It'd be like describing exterminatus with a scene of a toddler being eaten alive by the Life-Eater Virus.

This would be a good idea. It conveys that Exterminatus isn't just a term,and you really are wiping out entire civilizations with real people in them.

Yes I agree. Too often Exterminatus is described as Inquisitor beats the daemons in the end anyways. The horror of what's really happening is swept under the rug.

Manchu wrote:Aren't those "children" teenagers?

I mean, I know they say they've only seen 8 winters or whatever but a Fenrisian year is two Terran years, right?


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Kanluwen wrote:Let's also ignore the fact that ...

Children have never been, quite appropriately, combatants in 40k? Yes, let's ignore that and cherry pick a few examples that have nothing to do with Chris Wraight's lame attempt to make Chaos scary.

Teenagers are children. I work with 11-14 year olds everyday as a teacher. They are children.

Regarding the Exterminatus question, a good author does not need to portray the death of children to convey horror. It's a cheap cop out compared to, say, Dead Men Walking.

Manchu wrote:Regarding the Exterminatus question, a good author does not need to portray the death of children to convey horror. It's a cheap cop out compared to, say, Dead Men Walking.

I disagree that it's uniformly a cheap cop-out. What's a cheap cop-out is bringing up a throw-away character solely to have them die horribly.

Interspersing your story of the grim Inquisitor struggling against a Daemon cult with cutaway interludes to a young miner-couple and their baby in a hive city struggling to survive as the world goes to hell, finally escaping from the madhouse of the city and getting off into the country where they can hopefully survive, only for the virus bombs to fall. . . THAT could be very effective indeed, if done well, and some gore would be neither inappropriate nor cheap.

The problem is that a lot of authors seem to think that gore can SUBSTITUTE for story, when it really needs to be subservient to the story.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Manchu wrote:Regarding the Exterminatus question, a good author does not need to portray the death of children to convey horror. It's a cheap cop out compared to, say, Dead Men Walking.

I disagree that it's uniformly a cheap cop-out. What's a cheap cop-out is bringing up a throw-away character solely to have them die horribly.

Interspersing your story of the grim Inquisitor struggling against a Daemon cult with cutaway interludes to a young miner-couple and their baby in a hive city struggling to survive as the world goes to hell, finally escaping from the madhouse of the city and getting off into the country where they can hopefully survive, only for the virus bombs to fall. . . THAT could be very effective indeed, if done well, and some gore would be neither inappropriate nor cheap.

The problem is that a lot of authors seem to think that gore can SUBSTITUTE for story, when it really needs to be subservient to the story.

+1 Deffinately, exterminatus in fluff is made to sound like a Bolter killing a Daemon, however I have to say one of the interesting things pointed out in the Deathwatch core book is the fear they invoke upon normal citizens, they are known as Angels of Death, and not just because they deliver death to the enemy, the way they enter and the way they fight is hard and merciless in a galaxy with the exact same qualities . Meaning that if it will mean victory SMs would undoubtedly open fire through a hab that may or may not be inhabited by innocents. Remember much of the IoMs actions are taken for the Greater Good(not the crazy Tau one). If levelling a school to move an armoured column to intercept an invading force en route to a hive that holds the key to victory the Imperium will do it, no matter what innocents are inside. TBH I think the author was trying to A:Make the reader uncomfortable and B:To show the brutality of the measures that this foe is willing to go to. Now if the whole book was full of those scenes I would be against it. But it is used well enough. Now I don't recall anyone throwing a fit about the Scene in Titanicus where a Warlord ran through inhabited habs containing families, yes the people were slightly demonized after them throwing rocks and booing and hissing at the Titan. The content of this universe is not meant to be family friendly, it is meant to be a *gasp* grim and dark future, where mankind has little true hope aside from dying quickly.

TL;DR: This is not a youth friendly setting, it is intended for adults who are hopefully able to understand that these things happen in war, and possibly look at it as an antiwar sentiment

Manchu wrote:

Lynata wrote:Not that there actually was something shocking about that novel. A CSM says he wants to kill a bunch of kids. Not only is it not described in detail, it clearly doesn't happen at all. What's the big deal?

It's not a big deal at all. The only thing shocking about it is that a published novelist wrote such tripe in the first place. The image serves no purpose except to show that the CSM are EEEEEEVIL mua hahahaha! Jumping straight to killing kids for the sake of this is in poor taste -- but, more importantly, it is gakky writing

Manchu wrote:That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing.

Actually it contributes something. It shows that the Horus Heresy is not just Space Marine fighting Space Marine. It also shows that the Heresy had an impact on every aspect of imperial society, and that a large number of bystanders were victims of this fight. Was there this much discussion about the scene in Fulgrim when an artist lady is explicitly shown to stap some random bloke she picked up to have sex with while she was riding him, enjoying the sound of him choking on his own blood while he "finishes inside of her"?

It also shows more of the warrior aspect of the Space Wolves. If the children of serf are able to take on Space Marines, then we can imagine what the Space Wolves are like.

After having a good think about this last night and reading several posts in here, I'd reiterate that my shock/sense of offense came from the poor writing and shock introduction of the 2 page scene rather than the subject matter itself.

Yes 40k is Grimdark. Yes its setting/essence and tone at times can be horrific. Yes there are plenty of other examples within the BL works that describe equal if not worse acts.

However, in general these acts are within context and scope of the novels themselves.
Simply put, I think Wraight had a brain freeze, wrote a pretty terrible two page "bad guys" moment, got past his editor with it and in doing so caught the reader (specifically me) totally off guard, especially when he chose children as the subject matter.

Good man.

Now get back to flaying those children in your shed.

I'm going after my neighbours bunny rabbit too.

If you think that's too far, i'd suggest you don't read Dead Sky Black sun.

Manchu wrote:That's what's been said all along, actually. Various other posters have tried to make this about some kind of moral issue but the real problem is that it's disproportionate, shows poor taste, and a lack of skill. It's cookie cutter crap and it's exactly why BL has a poor reputation.

Yet it is you who have been acting for several pages as a moral guardian on crusade. That conclusion had been reached within the first page and yet you kept ranting about children being sacred and whatnot. It sounded like preaching, not with an actual attempt at participating into a reasonable discussion.
Whatever the motive, your reaction was way over the top. Glad this "discussion" has come to an end.

I think flaying terrorist kids is a good thing — they had grenades, right?

Oh look, I took it too far .

Manchu wrote:That's not a good reason. It contributes nothing. It'd be like describing exterminatus with a scene of a toddler being eaten alive by the Life-Eater Virus.

Which would be pretty crappy and hamfisted. Far better to describe the last remains of a decaying skeleton hanging from the handles of a baby carriage. That lets the reader do all the heavy lifting of imagining the events of the last seconds of life.

Prospero Burns had all of ten pages that actually occured on Prospero, and most of them were given over to the big reveal about the main character. If you want information about the scouring of Prospero, A Thousand Sons is where it's at. Not that it focused on non-combatants or anything.

Hyd wrote:

Manchu wrote:That's what's been said all along, actually. Various other posters have tried to make this about some kind of moral issue but the real problem is that it's disproportionate, shows poor taste, and a lack of skill. It's cookie cutter crap and it's exactly why BL has a poor reputation.

Yet it is you who have been acting for several pages as a moral guardian on crusade. That conclusion had been reached within the first page and yet you kept ranting about children being sacred and whatnot. It sounded like preaching, not with an actual attempt at participating into a reasonable discussion.
Whatever the motive, your reaction was way over the top. Glad this "discussion" has come to an end.

Wow, you have demonstrated a total lack of reading comprehension skills across five pages of my posts -- which is especially sad considering how many times I have reiterated that your synopsis there is absolutely not what I am saying. I think this is what is called invincible ignorance.


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d-usa wrote:Actually it contributes something. It shows that the Horus Heresy is not just Space Marine fighting Space Marine. It also shows that the Heresy had an impact on every aspect of imperial society, and that a large number of bystanders were victims of this fight.

Not really. Reading it in its context, these children are throw-away "extras" only brought up to act as would-be victims and thereby make the CSM look "like omg seriously mean." If it was meant to convey some sense of scope then it utterly failed.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:The problem is that a lot of authors seem to think that gore can SUBSTITUTE for story, when it really needs to be subservient to the story.

Yes, that is a very good point and more or less what Joey posted above. I think there are still some lines, as OP put it, that are simply not necessary to cross. Violence against children, rape, things of that nature certainly do happen in the real world and especially in the context of war. But these stories, as I will never tire of pointing out, have nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of warfare. As such, a certain verismilitude (as opposed to realism) can be achieved without sinking into shock schlock. Again and again, I would use Dead Man Walking as a great example of a very bleak depiction of GrimDark warfare that doesn't need to use this tasteless "realism" to make its point.


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Wardragoon wrote:This is not a youth friendly setting, it is intended for adults ...

In addition to being beside the point, that's simply wrong. Pick up any BL paperback you have and flip to the back page. You will find an advertisement for Warhammer40k. The picture shows two pre-teens.

Manchu wrote:

Hyd wrote:

Manchu wrote:That's what's been said all along, actually. Various other posters have tried to make this about some kind of moral issue but the real problem is that it's disproportionate, shows poor taste, and a lack of skill. It's cookie cutter crap and it's exactly why BL has a poor reputation.

Yet it is you who have been acting for several pages as a moral guardian on crusade. That conclusion had been reached within the first page and yet you kept ranting about children being sacred and whatnot. It sounded like preaching, not with an actual attempt at participating into a reasonable discussion.
Whatever the motive, your reaction was way over the top. Glad this "discussion" has come to an end.

Wow, you have demonstrated a total lack of reading comprehension skills across five pages of my posts -- which is especially sad considering how many times I have reiterated that your synopsis there is absolutely not what I am saying. I think this is what is called invincible ignorance.


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d-usa wrote:Actually it contributes something. It shows that the Horus Heresy is not just Space Marine fighting Space Marine. It also shows that the Heresy had an impact on every aspect of imperial society, and that a large number of bystanders were victims of this fight.

Not really. Reading it in its context, these children are throw-away "extras" only brought up to act as would-be victims and thereby make the CSM look "like omg seriously mean." If it was meant to convey some sense of scope then it utterly failed.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:The problem is that a lot of authors seem to think that gore can SUBSTITUTE for story, when it really needs to be subservient to the story.

Yes, that is a very good point and more or less what Joey posted above. I think there are still some lines, as OP put it, that are simply not necessary to cross. Violence against children, rape, things of that nature certainly do happen in the real world and especially in the context of war. But these stories, as I will never tire of pointing out, have nothing whatsoever to do with the reality of warfare. As such, a certain verismilitude (as opposed to realism) can be achieved without sinking into shock schlock. Again and again, I would use Dead Man Walking as a great example of a very bleak depiction of GrimDark warfare that doesn't need to use this tasteless "realism" to make its point.


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Wardragoon wrote:This is not a youth friendly setting, it is intended for adults ...

In addition to being beside the point, that's simply wrong. Pick up any BL paperback you have and flip to the back page. You will find an advertisement for Warhammer40k. The picture shows two pre-teens.

Come on keep it civil. No need to make a personal attack on someone's intellectual abilities, you're a MOD after all.

While you have stated your "actual" position over, and over and I understand where you are coming from, it does seem that you are attempting to take a moral high ground on the issue whilst simultaneously proclaiming you are not making a moral argument. Please don't attack my reading comprehension skills as I have stated I understand where you are coming from and my reading comprehension skills are just fine.

I must agree with Overwatch here; Manchu, while you've said repeatedly that your offended from an artistic and not a moral perspective, I think much of what you've written demonstrates that you seem to be offended by both. Your sense of artistry is offended BECAUSE you feel that killing (or even threatening, in this case) children is 'too far'; that's an explicitly moral judgement. Furthermore, in some posts a couple pages back you made reference to someone who wasn't offended by it as 'hardened', I believe.

In short, what you say you're saying and what you're saying aren't quite matching up, Perhaps it's an issue of phrasing, or perhaps I'm simply reading too much into what you're writing.

I agree that, artistically, the scene you're describing does not seem to be well-written or appropriate for the book (taking your word for the tone of the book and the disconnectedness of the scene). I do, however, feel that a good author can certainly make very effective use of morally repugnant things like this, particularly when writing about a morally bleak and irredeemable universe like Warhammer 40k.

Manchu wrote:

d-usa wrote:Actually it contributes something. It shows that the Horus Heresy is not just Space Marine fighting Space Marine. It also shows that the Heresy had an impact on every aspect of imperial society, and that a large number of bystanders were victims of this fight.

Not really. Reading it in its context, these children are throw-away "extras" only brought up to act as would-be victims and thereby make the CSM look "like omg seriously mean." If it was meant to convey some sense of scope then it utterly failed.

Battle for the Fang is after the Heresy

I think the whole point of the scene and why the children were even mentioned is too suggest just how dire the situation was for the Space Wolves, if the Thousand Sons had been successful then that would have effectively been the end of them.

If it wasn't for the entire population of the Fang to rally with the Space Wolves it would have been their doom.